Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

n97 mini · 15-04-2013 10:45PM

woodoo wrote: »

You seem to forget that we have suffered 2 cuts with little union lead action. This is the 3rd cut and the unions tried to reach a deal. I'd say we have been more than fair.

Be "fair" all you want, the state is bankrupt. Your employer is out of money.

Dreamertime · 15-04-2013 10:46PM

Reports in that the windy buggers in the PSEU voted Yes. The brass neck of them.

road_high · 15-04-2013 10:50PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Be "fair" all you want, the state is bankrupt. Your employer is out of money.

Exactly 229 pages later into this thread and it still hasn't sunken in. Ypu're wasting your breath I'm afraid! But the €1 billion saving will have to be found somewhere as we can't keep borrowing huge sums indefinitely. Despite what some here would like to believe.

barneystinson · 15-04-2013 10:56PM

road_high wrote: »

Exactly 229 pages later into this thread and it still hasn't sunken in. Ypu're wasting your breath I'm afraid! But the €1 billion saving will have to be found somewhere as we can't keep borrowing huge sums indefinitely. Despite what some here would like to believe.

Why stop at a billion then - why not just privatise the entire state sector and save the entire PS paybill - wouldn't we be running at a surplus then?

There ya go, I just fixed the country in one post!

Farmer Pudsey · 15-04-2013 10:57PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Reports in that the windy buggers in the PSEU voted Yes. The brass neck of them.

Are you surprised if Turkeys had a vote they would not vote for Christmas

Pete M. · 15-04-2013 11:09PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

IMPACT could reject? Seriously?

It is very close afaik.

And if they do....

Dreamertime · 15-04-2013 11:09PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Are you surprised if Turkeys had a vote they would not vote for Christmas

Emmm, no. I don't think they would. Next?

woodoo · 15-04-2013 11:13PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Be "fair" all you want, the state is bankrupt. Your employer is out of money.

No its not it has money from tax and it has money from borrowings.

Dreamertime · 15-04-2013 11:14PM

Pete M. wrote: »

It is very close afaik.

And if they do....

I was talking to someone who knows IMPACT inside out who said that one of their large Dublin based HSE branches has rejected. Now IMPACT are traditionally more Govt friendly in votes like these than SIPTU.

So even if IMPACT accepted it overall it could mena SIPTU may well reject. Now that would make my year

Godge · 15-04-2013 11:25PM

sharper wrote: »

A large chunk of the electorate are scanning around looking for someone to guarantee their state transfers be it pay, contracts, social welfare, favours or whatever else.

The horror that's starting to dawn on some (manifested as "disillusionment") is that there is no such beast in this country anymore. The golden goose was given a right good throttling and won't be back for a generation or so.

SF will step in and guarantee social welfare payments, Labour will follow.

One of the others will say something to public servants - the Return of the Living Dead aka FF may be the one - and will gain seats as a result.

You don't seem to get that public servants have probably the highest turnout.

ardmacha · 16-04-2013 12:15AM

One of the others will say something to public servants - the Return of the Living Dead aka FF may be the one - and will gain seats as a result.

FF can propose to extend CP1 with refinements and get a lot of benefits and none of the aggro.

rodento · 16-04-2013 05:58AM

Interesting article in the Indo

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/surprise-as-pay-is-up-despite-years-of-austerity-29198299.html

Pay in the privite sector is up despite years of austerity

ParkRunner · 16-04-2013 06:25AM

PSEU has voted 61% - 39% in favour with a valid poll of 74%. Probably a slightly larger than expected apprvoal

Dreamertime · 16-04-2013 06:40AM

EF wrote: »

PSEU has voted 61% - 39% in favour with a valid poll of 74%. Probably a slightly larger than expected apprvoal

I'm disappointed but not surprised with some of my PSEU work coleagues. They have no concept of the word Solidarity and are true Mé Féiners. Of course there are some very frustrated PSEU people who feel trapped in such a scenario but alas, they are in the minority.

Count Dooku · 16-04-2013 06:50AM

rodento wrote: »

Interesting article in the Indo

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/surprise-as-pay-is-up-despite-years-of-austerity-29198299.html

Pay in the privite sector is up despite years of austerity

Actually not, because this figure includes 200 millions annual increments in public sector. So if you will do maths, you will see that it public sector who is getting most
Total increase for all workers was 340 millions. Public sector got 200 millions, but it contribute only 15% to workforce. If you will substract rise for self-employed, you will see how deep decline in private sector PAYE is
BTW, there is no recruitment embargo in private sector - everybody can join any time

sarumite · 16-04-2013 07:12AM

creedp wrote: »

I love the faux concern for the new entrants - nice touch

This is going to shock you, but it is possible to have concern about a situation based on your principles rather than because is affects your bank balance. I realise showing concern for anyone other than yourself is viewed as "faux concern" in your eyes, but we all don't share your me fein attitude.

sharper · 16-04-2013 07:45AM

Dreamertime wrote: »

They have no concept of the word Solidarity and are true Mé Féiners.

You're not a "Mé Féiner"? You're acting for the greater good of...who exactly?

AlexisM · 16-04-2013 08:56AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Its little you know about comparable rates for the job you do. CSO report state that its the lower paid PS jobs that have the highest wage discrepancy for comparable roles in the private sector.

So either the CSO are wrorng or you have an over inflated sense of what you're worth, I'll go with the latter

woodoo wrote: »

Ah thats the phantom report you keep mentioning but never link to.

Published in autumn last year; not a phantom report... http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/nes_0910supp.pdf

"Further analysis of the differential at differing points throughout the earnings distribution for NES 2009 and 2010 showed that the public sector pay differential was largest at the lower end of the earnings distribution and generally decreased as earnings increased."

The unpalatable truth is that it is possible to be low paid and overpaid; and also possible to be highly paid and underpaid. I feel sorry for the mid-high levels in the public sector; if there is an overall adjustment to be made, the lower paid are protected most - even though they are the ones who seem to be most overpaid.

Godge · 16-04-2013 09:03AM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Actually not, because this figure includes 200 millions annual increments in public sector. So if you will do maths, you will see that it public sector who is getting most
Total increase for all workers was 340 millions. Public sector got 200 millions, but it contribute only 15% to workforce. If you will substract rise for self-employed, you will see how deep decline in private sector PAYE is
BTW, there is no recruitment embargo in private sector - everybody can join any time

Glad you are not in charge of public finances. Fantasy economics.

Your 200m is incorrect, your 340m is incorrect. From the article.

"The CSO figures show that the disposable income from all households was €86.27bn last year – up 2.5pc from 2011. There was a €1.9bn rise in profits for the self-employed and a €711m increase in wages."

From the Dail:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/01/11/00195.asp

"the estimated full year cost of increments in the public service (excluding the Local Authority sector) is now estimated at no more than 180 million euro per annum and less than half that sum in 2012. "

So according to the Minister about €90m is the cost of increments in 2012.

According to the CSO, wages went up by €711m. Applying the 15% principle, public servants should have got €106m, more than the €90m.

If you include the self-employed as private sector (well, where else do they work?) that gives a total of €391m should have gone to the public sector using your 15% formula.

Dreamertime · 16-04-2013 09:11AM

sharper wrote: »

You're not a "Mé Féiner"? You're acting for the greater good of...who exactly?

Public Sector workers of course.

sharper · 16-04-2013 09:28AM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Public Sector workers of course.

According to yourself the deal negatively impacts your job which means you're acting in your own interest. It's the height of irony you're accusing others of "Mé Féiners" when you're clearly trying to protect your own income regardless of the cost to anyone else.

antoobrien · 16-04-2013 09:43AM

rodento wrote: »

Interesting article in the Indo

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/surprise-as-pay-is-up-despite-years-of-austerity-29198299.html

Pay in the privite sector is up despite years of austerity

Not the most accurate headline in the world, it refers to household disposable income, which can go up without a pay increase.

Anecdotally there are a lot of people "moving home" creating bigger households. This will do two things, reduce the size of the pool (removing lower incomes from a pool increases the apparent average wage of the pool) as well as increasing the average disposable income for the household (again increasing the average).

In my family home, despite no pay increases to anyone, the "disposable income" has gone up 150% because two of us have moved home since Christmas.

Dreamertime · 16-04-2013 10:05AM

sharper wrote: »

According to yourself the deal negatively impacts your job which means you're acting in your own interest. It's the height of irony you're accusing others of "Mé Féiners" when you're clearly trying to protect your own income regardless of the cost to anyone else.

Thats a bit strange given the fact that my income isn't effected by CP II. Think you know me? Get the boat sunshine.

Count Dooku · 16-04-2013 10:07AM

Godge wrote: »

From the Dail:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/01/11/00195.asp

"the estimated full year cost of increments in the public service (excluding the Local Authority sector) is now estimated at no more than 180 million euro per annum and less than half that sum in 2012. "

So according to the Minister about €90m is the cost of increments in 2012.

a) keyword is "excluding the Local Authority sector"

b) increase of income includes 440 millions paid as retirement packages
c) most of wage increase is coming from last year tax decrease for high earners
d) if you will look on Table 4 EXCHEQUER PAY BILL – GROSS, you will see that biggest reduction in pay were in most critical services like Garda and HSE, and biggest increase in pay were in most useless departments like Public Expenditure and Reform and Office of Public Works.

sharper · 16-04-2013 11:39AM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Thats a bit strange given the fact that my income isn't effected by CP II. Think you know me? Get the boat sunshine.

Allright, your own terms and conditions then.

I don't claim to know, I only claim to have read your posts.

ardmacha · 16-04-2013 11:53AM

Actually not, because this figure includes 200 millions annual increments in public sector. So if you will do maths, you will see that it public sector who is getting most Total increase for all workers was 340 millions. Public sector got 200 millions, but it contribute only 15% to workforce. If you will subtract rise for self-employed, you will see how deep decline in private sector PAYE is

Typical misleading post, with a use of data that even Bertie Aherne would be ashamed of, thanked by people who are happy to see any sort of nonsense posted provided that it is anti PS.

Household income is an aggregate, some went up and some went down. The fact that some people progressed in their careers and got more money is not the point, the issue is how the aggregate is performing. Aggregate pay from the PS did not increase and so there was no contribution to aggregate household finances from PS pay.

Your points about PAYE versus Self Employed is about the components of PS pay are more useful.

There is a quite a bit of self employed income out there, something that is overlooked when high paid PS medics are compared, their peers are not salaried but self employed and also getting large incomes.

sharper · 16-04-2013 12:02PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Aggregate pay from the PS did not increase and so there was no contribution to aggregate household finances from PS pay.

Actually it did - remember those that took early retirement got their tax free lump sum and then their pension. It's not called "PS Pay" but something else however you can't ignore the effect it would have on disposable income.

creedp · 16-04-2013 12:13PM

sarumite wrote: »

This is going to shock you, but it is possible to have concern about a situation based on your principles rather than because is affects your bank balance. I realise showing concern for anyone other than yourself is viewed as "faux concern" in your eyes, but we all don't share your me fein attitude.

I'm not in any way shocked by that possibility .. its just that I'm intruiged by your new found concern for the welfare of PS. What is brutally clear from this and the vast number of other threads which end up debating PS pay and conditions is that many non-PS are extremely interested in reducing the terms and conditions of the PS - just how that philosophy fits with being concerned with new entrant PS I'm confused with. Presumably it might be because new entrants haven't been on complaining about their lot, because if they did you can be sure the wolves would be on top of them before they got to draw a breath.

sarumite · 16-04-2013 12:21PM

creedp wrote: »

I'm not in any way shocked by that possibility .. its just that I'm intruiged by your new found concern for the welfare of PS.

Perhaps you might consider actually reading my previous posts before posting such nonsense. You wouldn't have been so intrigued as you would have known that I have mentioned in previous threads that I disagree with the current two tier system in the PS and thus my concern is neither "faux" nor " new found".

creedp · 16-04-2013 12:24PM

sharper wrote: »

According to yourself the deal negatively impacts your job which means you're acting in your own interest. It's the height of irony you're accusing others of "Mé Féiners" when you're clearly trying to protect your own income regardless of the cost to anyone else.

Are you for real .. get a grip. Imagine someone is castigated for trying to protect their own position .. a me feiner. Pray tell me what would you do in a similar circumstance? Presumably you'd go to your employer and say go on boy double that cut for me .. think about the customers!

To be fair to PS they have accepted 2 legislated for pay cuts already with little or no protest because they recognised the necessity to cut pay costs in the current climate. The problem here is that if you continue to roll over why not a 4th, 5th, etc pay cut .. at what point would you consider the PS should think we've contributed enough and support their right to protest. I'm sure if you had you way you expect the PS to pay for the priveledge to have a PS job.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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