Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Godge · 15-04-2013 04:11PM

sharper wrote: »

As for the property tax well...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/teachers-union-to-fight-property-tax-29174368.html

Not easy to win is it?

I am not a teacher, I am not even a public servant.

What does a union fighting a property tax have to do with my view that increasing taxes is fairer than cutting public service pay?

If you do cut public service pay I believe it has to be done by a proper analysis which in the light of developments in the private sector and across Europe would show that some public servants deserve an increase.

There is nothing in that about winning or losing, it is about discussing policy options not scoring points in a childish debate.

Godge · 15-04-2013 04:23PM

Getting back on topic, is there someone on here who knows what is happening in any of the big four swing unions (IMPACT, SIPTU, PSEU or INTO)?

The expected Nos have come in - TUI, IFUT, CPSU, but they voted first to attract attention to the no campaign.

Notable results in all this. The AHCPS, according to their press statement they voted 85% yes the last time and around that in no terms this time.

The other interesting ones are MLSA and UCATT which voted no despite their unions recommending a yes.

So far all of the unions recommending a no have voted no. Only two possible outcomes it seems to me - a rejection or a close yes that could split the union movement. Either would be interesting from the sidelines.

Dreamertime · 15-04-2013 04:44PM

Godge wrote: »

Getting back on topic, is there someone on here who knows what is happening in any of the big four swing unions (IMPACT, SIPTU, PSEU or INTO)?

The expected Nos have come in - TUI, IFUT, CPSU, but they voted first to attract attention to the no campaign.

Notable results in all this. The AHCPS, according to their press statement they voted 85% yes the last time and around that in no terms this time.

The other interesting ones are MLSA and UCATT which voted no despite their unions recommending a yes.

So far all of the unions recommending a no have voted no. Only two possible outcomes it seems to me - a rejection or a close yes that could split the union movement. Either would be interesting from the sidelines.

Even more interesting from within

whiteandlight · 15-04-2013 05:36PM

A lot of rumours out there (other discussion sites/friends/family) that SIPTU have rejected. Have to wait until tomorrow though to confirm

Dreamertime · 15-04-2013 05:42PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

A lot of rumours out there (other discussion sites/friends/family) that SIPTU have rejected. Have to wait until tomorrow though to confirm

Now that would be massive.

ardmacha · 15-04-2013 06:00PM

A lot of rumours out there (other discussion sites/friends/family) that SIPTU have rejected. Have to wait until tomorrow though to confirm

A number of unions have already said that they will not go along with a majority anyway. But is there also a chance of a George Bush type scenario where the thing passes owing to 51/49 votes in SIPTU, INTO etc, but with 80/20 votes against in many other unions might a majority might have actually voted against?

Pete M. · 15-04-2013 07:26PM

The count is ongoing with the Impact ballot but it is looking like we may reject the Proposals at this stage.

That would be pretty significant. And the SIPTU vote could go either way as well.

Pete M. · 15-04-2013 07:30PM

ardmacha wrote: »

A number of unions have already said that they will not go along with a majority anyway. But is there also a chance of a George Bush type scenario where the thing passes owing to 51/49 votes in SIPTU, INTO etc, but with 80/20 votes against in many other unions might a majority might have actually voted against?

With Shay Cody or Jack O'Connor as Dubya?

I'm not sure tbh but whether it falls or barely passes,then things will have to change.

skafish · 15-04-2013 08:14PM

Godge wrote: »

Getting back on topic, is there someone on here who knows what is happening in any of the big four swing unions (IMPACT, SIPTU, PSEU or INTO)?

The expected Nos have come in - TUI, IFUT, CPSU, but they voted first to attract attention to the no campaign.

Notable results in all this. The AHCPS, according to their press statement they voted 85% yes the last time and around that in no terms this time.

The other interesting ones are MLSA and UCATT which voted no despite their unions recommending a yes.

So far all of the unions recommending a no have voted no. Only two possible outcomes it seems to me - a rejection or a close yes that could split the union movement. Either would be interesting from the sidelines.

As I said earlier in this thread, in my opinion, that is the real outcome being looked for by Fine Gael.... Break the union solidarity, allow Labour to comit mass political suacide and rely on their bed rock support to expand enough to get a majority in the next election. In fact, at this stage, depending on the polls over the next few weeks, I wouldn't be surprised to see Eunach call a snap election.

CP2 was never about money, if it was, the same amount or more could be saved in many other ways (just eliminating a fraction of the welfare fraud in the country would save a multiple of the numbers being talked about, and have the extra advantage of getting people off welfare).

Instead, IMO, it ia a power move by Fine Gael aimed at splitting Labour from the unions, and spliting the union grouping.

skafish · 15-04-2013 08:19PM

sharper wrote: »

Why should you make it easy? It's called being reasonable - taking a view of the situation where you understand cuts are inevitable and not a single person in the country has the power to give you what you want. You say "Well I don't want any cuts but I don't see any alternative so let's do it in the most painless way possible".

You've as much as conceded in your posts here you realise the cuts are coming one way or the other it simply makes you feel better to resist.

That tells us a lot about the balance you make between your own satisfaction and the needs of the people relying on your services. Those people are not responsible for the cuts, can do nothing to stop them and are experiencing their own hardship brought on by economic collapse but you're giddy at the thought of putting the boot in because it makes you feel good to do so.

Every working citizen is paying more and will be paying more via property tax and water rates. What more do you want? Do you believe the Irish economy has the ability to close the deficit via tax increases alone?

And the PS are a very large part of "every working citizen".

As regards cuts being inevetable, perhaps you are right. But (and I know I am repeating myself ) these proposals have little or nothing to do with saving money

iba · 15-04-2013 08:32PM

skafish wrote: »

As I said earlier in this thread, in my opinion, that is the real outcome being looked for by Fine Gael.... Break the union solidarity, allow Labour to comit mass political suacide and rely on their bed rock support to expand enough to get a majority in the next election. In fact, at this stage, depending on the polls over the next few weeks, I wouldn't be surprised to see Eunach call a snap election.

CP2 was never about money, if it was, the same amount or more could be saved in many other ways (just eliminating a fraction of the welfare fraud in the country would save a multiple of the numbers being talked about, and have the extra advantage of getting people off welfare).

Instead, IMO, it ia a power move by Fine Gael aimed at splitting Labour from the unions, and spliting the union grouping.

Interesting theory about a snap election, but who the hell would the PS vote for, not Labour, not FF, not FG, not SF?

skafish · 15-04-2013 08:35PM

iba wrote: »

Interesting theory about a snap election, but who the hell would the PS vote for, not Labour, not FF, not FG, not SF?

My daughters primary class would do at least as well at running the country as the current shower :rolleyes:

sharper · 15-04-2013 08:59PM

skafish wrote: »

Instead, IMO, it ia a power move by Fine Gael aimed at splitting Labour from the unions, and spliting the union grouping.

I assume you're aware the government is forced to make regular reports to the IMF and EU on how they're closing the deficit. The notion the government has just invested months of negotiation and political capital in a silly political move is just more magical thinking.

Icepick · 15-04-2013 09:00PM

skafish wrote: »

My daughters primary class would do at least as well at running the country as the current shower :rolleyes:

yes, that's very helpful

Dreamertime · 15-04-2013 09:01PM

Pete M. wrote: »

The count is ongoing with the Impact ballot but it is looking like we may reject the Proposals at this stage.

That would be pretty significant. And the SIPTU vote could go either way as well.

IMPACT could reject? Seriously?

sharper · 15-04-2013 09:02PM

iba wrote: »

Interesting theory about a snap election, but who the hell would the PS vote for, not Labour, not FF, not FG, not SF?

A large chunk of the electorate are scanning around looking for someone to guarantee their state transfers be it pay, contracts, social welfare, favours or whatever else.

The horror that's starting to dawn on some (manifested as "disillusionment") is that there is no such beast in this country anymore. The golden goose was given a right good throttling and won't be back for a generation or so.

skafish · 15-04-2013 09:15PM

sharper wrote: »

I assume you're aware the government is forced to make regular reports to the IMF and EU on how they're closing the deficit. The notion the government has just invested months of negotiation and political capital in a silly political move is just more magical thinking.

So you don't think politicians play games. and that they won't do whatever they think it will take to retain power?

I suggested earlier that FG would pull a rabbit (as they try to burry a rabbite) from the hat comming up to the next scheduled election in 2016 (not that it took too much work out)

Step up Brian Hayes:Govt 'planning income tax cut' - but not in next Budget

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-planning-income-tax-cut-but-not-in-next-budget-591279.html

woodoo · 15-04-2013 09:15PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Its little you know about comparable rates for the job you do. CSO report state that its the lower paid PS jobs that have the highest wage discrepancy for comparable roles in the private sector.

So either the CSO are wrorng or you have an over inflated sense of what you're worth, I'll go with the latter

Ah thats the phantom report you keep mentioning but never link to.

woodoo · 15-04-2013 09:19PM

sharper wrote: »

If the unions were willing to fight for that reform and for a real re-balancing of the economy I'd be happy to support them

They are fighting for their members pay and conditions as they are paid to do.

sharper · 15-04-2013 09:21PM

skafish wrote: »

So you don't think politicians play games. and that they won't do whatever they think it will take to retain power?

You could use statement to try and justify basically any conspiracy theory about what the government might be upto including armed suppression.

If CP2 passes and the savings don't appear then they'll be forced to cut more. If CP2 doesn't pass they'll be forced to cut anyway.

There's no outcome where the cuts don't happen because the money to maintain spending just doesn't exist.

sharper · 15-04-2013 09:26PM

woodoo wrote: »

They are fighting for their members pay and conditions as they are paid to do.

I expect them to act also as citizens of the country they live in and acknowledge basic reality, not as soulless pursuers of government money for their members.

Don't worry though woodoo at some point the wheel will turn again and the unions will be asking for fairness and reasonableness from the government when there is actually money to be spent - should the government then say "Well actually we don't care how lowly paid you are, we will never accept increased wage demands on behalf of the taxpayer".

Oh that's right, "benchmarking" will suddenly sound like a wonderful idea again.

skafish · 15-04-2013 09:26PM

sharper wrote: »

You could use statement to try and justify basically any conspiracy theory about what the government might be upto including armed suppression.

If CP2 passes and the savings don't appear then they'll be forced to cut more. If CP2 doesn't pass they'll be forced to cut anyway.

There's no outcome where the cuts don't happen because the money to maintain spending just doesn't exist.

Only because the government insist on picking the soft target all the time

Dreamertime · 15-04-2013 09:29PM

Oh the times, they are a changing

sharper · 15-04-2013 09:33PM

skafish wrote: »

Only because the government insist on picking the soft target all the time

Certainly, as I explained above. Most working people in the country are in the "soft target" category. The hard targets continually evade attention thanks to their extensive lobbying groups.

However I see the Irish union movement as on the wrong side of this. They're happy to continue to pummel the soft targets so long as they get spared. The members of those unions are happy to keep the union leaders in power if they promise to spare them any cuts, then they're happy to elect whichever government will promise to spare them any cuts.

Meanwhile if you have any ambition, work ethic or general notion of working hard you get the life squeezed out of you "in the interest of fairness".

Farmer Pudsey · 15-04-2013 09:35PM

skafish wrote: »

Only because the government insist on picking the soft target all the time

Where is this Golden Goose or where will the government raise taxes. Forget about wish list or imaginary windfalls from being able to do away the black economy or that there are billion in money out there to be taxed.

There are a few targets such as cuts in welfare, capital expenditure is cut to the bone. The government is getting cagy about water rates as it hits the same tax payers so where are the so called options.

creedp · 15-04-2013 09:35PM

sharper wrote: »

Every citizen of the country has an interest in how taxes are spent - public sector pay is one of the largest blocks of that spending.

I said how pay was cut .. I didn't say if or by how much .. what does it matter to the average private sector worker is PS Mary and Joan get a 4% cut each or PS Harry gets an 8% instead so long as the same saving is made?

I wonder is it down the inate Irish 'curtain twitching' characteristic?

creedp · 15-04-2013 09:36PM

sarumite wrote: »

Pay can be cut by reducing services....thus affecting the taxpayer. Pay can be cut by screwing over new entrants to protect their established colleagues, thus potentially jeopardizing the long term quality of the service. Or is it a case of pay your taxes and shut up about how their spent?

I love the faux concern for the new entrants - nice touch

woodoo · 15-04-2013 09:38PM

sharper wrote: »

I expect them to act also as citizens of the country they live in and acknowledge basic reality, not as soulless pursuers of government money for their members.

Don't worry though woodoo at some point the wheel will turn again and the unions will be asking for fairness and reasonableness from the government when there is actually money to be spent - should the government then say "Well actually we don't care how lowly paid you are, we will never accept increased wage demands on behalf of the taxpayer".

Oh that's right, "benchmarking" will suddenly sound like a wonderful idea again.

You seem to forget that we have suffered 2 cuts with little union lead action. This is the 3rd cut and the unions tried to reach a deal. I'd say we have been more than fair.

ardmacha · 15-04-2013 09:39PM

So you don't think politicians play games. and that they won't do whatever they think it will take to retain power?

Whatever the politicians are at here, the long term good of the country is not part of it.

I expect them to act also as citizens of the country they live in and acknowledge basic reality,

Perhaps they'd also like to be treated in the same way as other citizens.

tayto lover · 15-04-2013 09:45PM

sharper wrote: »

I expect them to act also as citizens of the country they live in and acknowledge basic reality, not as soulless pursuers of government money for their members.

Don't worry though woodoo at some point the wheel will turn again and the unions will be asking for fairness and reasonableness from the government when there is actually money to be spent - should the government then say "Well actually we don't care how lowly paid you are, we will never accept increased wage demands on behalf of the taxpayer".

Oh that's right, "benchmarking" will suddenly sound like a wonderful idea again.

Idiotic post.
The Government know on which side their bread is buttered.
Also by the time this country picks up again most of the current crowd will be long gone.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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