Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

Spook_ie · 15-04-2013 02:56PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

:rolleyes: oh dear!
No wonder the British have difficulty.

Happyman42 wrote: »

It is such a ridiculous statement, all it warranted was a smiley tbh.
Would you be similarly stupid enough to believe that Peter Robinson could deliver Jim McAlister? After all they are both Unionists.

Well forgive me for thinking otherwise when you obviously decided it didn't warrant "just" a smilie

However, why would I imagine that Peter Robinson could raise the dead, let alone as Leader of the Democratic Unionist Party deliver the ex SF father of a dissident republican or are we referring to a different Jim McAlister?

James McAllister (born 1944 - 2013), known as Jim McAllister, was an Irish republican activist and former politician.

Born in Crossmaglen, County Armagh, McAllister first became involved in the republican movement in the 1950s, at the end of the Border Campaign. He joined Sinn Féin in 1962, but moved to England later in the decade. He returned to south Armagh in 1974, and rejoined Sinn Féin. During the 1981 Irish hunger strike, he became a full-time activist.[1]

At the Northern Ireland Assembly election, 1982, McAllister was elected in Armagh.[2] He stood for the Westminster seat of Newry and Armagh at the 1983 general election, taking 20% of the votes cast, but his vote share fell to 13.2% at the Newry and Armagh by-election, 1986, and to 11.8% at the 1987 general election.[3]

McAllister was also elected to Newry and Mourne District Council, representing Slieve Gullion, at the Northern Ireland local elections, 1985, a seat he held in 1989 and 1993.[4] He left Sinn Féin in the 1990s, in protest at their advocacy of a Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) ceasefire and their participation in the Northern Ireland Assembly.[5]

In the 2000s, McAllister campaigned against IRA intimidation in south Armagh. In 2008, his son, Turlough McAllister, was charged with possessing explosives and alleged involvement in a dissident IRA group.[5]

He died on April 9th 2013 of cancer at his home at 4 o'clock in the morning.

Happyman42 · 15-04-2013 03:03PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Well forgive me for thinking otherwise when you obviously decided it didn't warrant "just" a smilie

However, why would I imagine that Peter Robinson could raise the dead, let alone as Leader of the Democratic Unionist Party deliver the ex SF father of a dissident republican or are we referring to a different Jim McAlister?

'Jim Allister' (typo)

[-0-] · 15-04-2013 06:03PM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

^^ This.

My 20 year old niece told me that she downloaded ding-dong. When I asked her why she said that it was because (and I quote) "Thatcher was nasty and she, like, hated the people in the north and didn't want the miners to work so she sacked them all so that she could take the money and keep it for her and the other politicians. And she sent in the police to beat them up when they protested".

That kind of guff is picked up from reading nonsense chat on boards like this. She had no idea that the country was bankrupt, that there had been 3 day weeks, that rubbish wasn't being collected from the streets, that hospitals (yes, even in London) were only dealing with A&E, and that the unions were not budging on a single issue, with Scargill using the workers as his own army to try to bring down another government. And that she was democratically elected 3 times

And this is what she said. "oh". I think she felt a little embarrased about being taken in by all the SHOUTING by people who weren't even there

Don't forget she wanted to be like Cromwell and move all Catholics in Northern Ireland back to the Republic.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/thatcher-proposed-sending-northern-ireland-catholics-to-the-republic-29196422.html

Margaret Thatcher once horrified her advisers when she suggested shipping Catholics from Northern Ireland to the Republic as solution to the Troubles.

The Iron Lady made the bizarre proposal in 1985, just a year after she was nearly killed in the IRA's Brighton bomb.

In late-night talks with her advisers, the Baroness said the Oliver Cromwell-style approach would not only solve the Troubles but content nationalists who “wanted to be” in the south.

The divisive recommendation was revealed by British diplomat Sir David Goodall, then adviser to Prime Minister Thatcher.

In 2001 he told a BBC documentary: “She said, if the northern [Catholic] population want to be in the south, well why don't they move over there?

“After all, there was a big movement of population in Ireland, wasn't there?

Sir David added: “Nobody could think what it was.

“So finally I said, are you talking about Cromwell, prime minister?

“She said, that's right, Cromwell.”

Cromwell — dubbed the Butcher of Ireland — was responsible for the slaughter of tens of thousands in the 1640s and 1650s. His forces hounded virtually all Catholic landowners from Ulster through Parliamentary invasion.

The 15th political leader is seen as a hate figure among nationalists — much like Lady Thatcher, whose death saw republican street parties across the province.

The Conservative Prime Minister’s “outrageous” plan did not stop at reviving the memory of Cromwell. She also called for the province’s border with the Republic to be redrawn because it was too difficult to patrol.

Sir Charles Powell, her then private secretary, also told the programme: “She thought that if we had a straight line border, not one with all those kinks and wiggles in it, it would be easier to defend.”

Despite being told of the folly of her idea, Thatcher refused to abandon it and called for a “security zone” on both sides of the border to help the British Army and RUC prevent IRA terrorists slipping over the border after attacks.

I suppose you pro Thatcher folks are OK with this as well, are you? In case you haven't bothered to read about our history, Cromwell massacred thousands in Ireland, he sent thousands as slaves to Barbados, and then he moved all of the Catholics to Connaught. That move actually killed more people than the massacres he carried out in Drogheda, Wexford, et al, because the people had to walk. They could not bring their animals with them and many died along the way because it was in the height of winter.

Anyway, she thought he was on the money and wanted to do something similar by removing the Catholics from the North.

The woman was pure evil, and anything to the contrary is ignorance of the highest order. She was a racist, sexist bigot.

Fratton Fred · 15-04-2013 06:14PM

How many times have we heard equally preposterous calls for unionists to be shipped back to Britain?

Nodin · 15-04-2013 06:15PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many times have we heard equally preposterous calls for unionists to be shipped back to Britain?

Redirection time I see.

Off an Irish PM?

K-9 · 15-04-2013 06:17PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many times have we heard equally preposterous calls for unionists to be shipped back to Britain?

From a Taoiseach? Can't think of any at all, maybe DeV in his day.

[-0-] · 15-04-2013 06:24PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many times have we heard equally preposterous calls for unionists to be shipped back to Britain?

From an Irish Taoiseach? None. Don't believe me? Prove it.

Playboy · 15-04-2013 06:27PM

[-0-] wrote: »

Don't forget she wanted to be like Cromwell and move all Catholics in Northern Ireland back to the Republic.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/thatcher-proposed-sending-northern-ireland-catholics-to-the-republic-29196422.html

I suppose you pro Thatcher folks are OK with this as well, are you? In case you haven't bothered to read about our history, Cromwell massacred thousands in Ireland, he sent thousands as slaves to Barbados, and then he moved all of the Catholics to Connaught. That move actually killed more people than the massacres he carried out in Drogheda, Wexford, et al, because the people had to walk. They could not bring their animals with them and many died along the way because it was in the height of winter.

Anyway, she thought he was on the money and wanted to do something similar by removing the Catholics from the North.

The woman was pure evil, and anything to the contrary is ignorance of the highest order. She was a racist, sexist bigot.

Wow... So now she is as bad Cromwell. What next? Stalin and Hitler I suppose?

I don't see how an ill thought out comment in a private meeting now amounts to policy. And I don't think there are that many people on here who are pro Thatcher... Just a lot of people who are bemused by the lefts attempts to turn the death of a democratically elected leader (who did a lot of good) into a vitriolic circus to score some political points on the week welfare cuts have been brought in.

LordSutch · 15-04-2013 06:31PM

[-0-] wrote: »

Don't forget she wanted to be like Cromwell and move all Catholics in Northern Ireland back to the Republic.

"The Iron Lady made the bizarre proposal in 1985, just a year after she was nearly killed in the IRA's Brighton bomb".

When the comments are put into context, I can't say I blame her for making those off the cuff ramblings, which lets face it, would
have been carried out if she was serious. Maggie never did anything by halfs, so we can assume she was just letting off steam . . .

I doubt she had anything against Nationalists Persay. The PIRA/SF//INLA were her enemies in Ireland, not the Nationalist people..

RIP Mrs Thatcher.

old hippy · 15-04-2013 06:31PM

LordSutch wrote: »

"The Iron Lady made the bizarre proposal in 1985, just a year after she was nearly killed in the IRA's Brighton bomb".

When the comments are put into context, I can't say I blame her for making those off the cuff ramblings, which lets face it, would
have been carried out if she was serious. Maggie never did anything by halfs, so we can assume she was just letting off steam . . .

I doubt she had anything against Nationalists. The PIRA/SF//INLA were her enemies in Ireland, not the Nastionalist people..

RIP Mrs Thatcher.

Maggie absolved of blame shocker!

Fratton Fred · 15-04-2013 06:34PM

K-9 wrote: »

From a Taoiseach? Can't think of any at all, maybe DeV in his day.

If it was a policy, or even a public statement then fair enough, but it was a comment made in a late night talking shop so mad it was never going to be taken seriously.

[-0-] · 15-04-2013 06:40PM

LordSutch wrote: »

"The Iron Lady made the bizarre proposal in 1985, just a year after she was nearly killed in the IRA's Brighton bomb".

When the comments are put into context, I can't say I blame her for making those off the cuff ramblings, which lets face it, would
have been carried out if she was serious. Maggie never did anything by halfs, so we can assume she was just letting off steam . . .

I doubt she had anything against Nationalists Persay. The PIRA/SF//INLA were her enemies in Ireland, not the Nationalist people..

RIP Mrs Thatcher.

Off the cuff ramblings? Were you at the meeting? The transcript does not read as if they were off the cuff at all. Quite the contrary actually.

You're doubting her feelings towards the Irish Nationalists in Northern Ireland despite her saying she wanted to remove them from there, and you're basically putting it down to "oh she couldn't have been serious, surely it was off the cuff".

That truly is ignorance of the highest order.

Fratton Fred wrote:

If it was a policy, or even a public statement then fair enough, but it was a comment made in a late night talking shop so mad it was never going to be taken seriously.

Fred - you are right. It was so racist and bigoted it was never turned into a policy; which is my point. She was a racist and hated the Irish.

Melanoma · 15-04-2013 06:52PM

She dead folks, debating her life now is a waste of time. Lets debate how to get more tourism in to the country develop more cross border trade and greater use of each others cultures to create brands international markets will pay a premium for.

[-0-] · 15-04-2013 06:55PM

Melanoma wrote: »

She dead folks, debating her life now is a waste of time. .

I strongly disagree. People who think she was a good Prime Minster and liked Ireland need to be educated. The record needs to show how much of a tyrant she was. Anything less is an insult to her victims and their families.

old hippy · 15-04-2013 07:00PM

Melanoma wrote: »

She dead folks, debating her life now is a waste of time. Lets debate how to get more tourism in to the country develop more cross border trade and greater use of each others cultures to create brands international markets will pay a premium for.

Great idea but not on this thread, surely?

Ava_e · 15-04-2013 07:12PM

Did she care about people ?. No she didn't.

She cared about herself. A heartless crazy, who wanted power at all costs. And people suffered that.

Melanoma · 15-04-2013 07:22PM

[-0-] wrote: »

I strongly disagree. People who think she was a good Prime Minster and liked Ireland need to be educated. The record needs to show how much of a tyrant she was. Anything less is an insult to her victims and their families.

Getting on with life now is how to honour them, those in the past can not help or hinder us. She was dangerous, she could have led us to all out war, she was prevented from unleashing the wolf by the US.

In the the houses of parliament politicians were listened to giving out about her as well as praising her.

The UK will spend money on a lavish funeral. All wasteful. The record is all too clear. History will be kind and judgemental of her.

I think she was most unwise in overheating and dividing the UK. She was great for some and made many rich. The UK was taking a bashing as they held onto being a lazy uncompetitive former colony power. She recognized this and made some good changes. Ireland as an issue will be forgotten about.

In our future nobody will give a dam about her or what she did or did not do. 100 years from now she will be a page note on the history of neo-captilism and not a significant one. This will be the ultimate insult to her but as I say she is dead so she won't care and by that stage so will I be. I the meantime the future of this country is interesting.

Playboy · 15-04-2013 07:27PM

[-0-] wrote: »

I strongly disagree. People who think she was a good Prime Minster and liked Ireland need to be educated. The record needs to show how much of a tyrant she was. Anything less is an insult to her victims and their families.

Being a good prime minister has nothing to do with her personal feelings towards Ireland. She wasn't a tyrant... She was a democratically elected leader who won consecutive terms.

Fratton Fred · 15-04-2013 07:50PM

[-0-] wrote: »

Fred - you are right. It was so racist and bigoted it was never turned into a policy; which is my point. She was a racist and hated the Irish.

Could you provide some evidence that she was racist and hated the Irish?

All I see there is a remark about ending the troubles.

Fratton Fred · 15-04-2013 07:53PM

[-0-] wrote: »

I strongly disagree. People who think she was a good Prime Minster and liked Ireland need to be educated. The record needs to show how much of a tyrant she was. Anything less is an insult to her victims and their families.

It is actually possible she couldn't care less about the Irish. There are constant accusations that she hated Ireland, but despite asking for it many times, no one has come up with any evidence.

old hippy · 15-04-2013 08:16PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is actually possible she couldn't care less about the Irish. There are constant accusations that she hated Ireland, but despite asking for it many times, no one has come up with any evidence.

Not just the Irish but the poor, the Argentians, society, unions, gay people (remember section 28)

Come on Fred, damn her like the rest of us, you know you want to.

Fratton Fred · 15-04-2013 08:57PM

old hippy wrote: »

Not just the Irish but the poor, the Argentians, society, unions, gay people (remember section 28)

Come on Fred, damn her like the rest of us, you know you want to.

I'll damn her for anything worth damning. Personally i think section 28 was one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation brought in. (It is worth pointing out though, that at the time this bit of Victorian style legislation was introduced, gay sexual activity was still illegal in Ireland).

I remember the furore of it all as well. It was a time of rampant homophobia due to AIDS and the Daily Mail article about Jenny living with her Dad and his male partner :rolleyes: I remember the Mail trying to make out that the left wing boroughs ere teaching homosexuality in schools

Mr Tibbs · 15-04-2013 09:24PM

Seems like The Iron Lady admired Ironside Cromwell.
She actually admired what he achieved in Ireland.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/thatcher-proposed-sending-northern-ireland-catholics-to-the-republic-29196422.html

Melanoma · 15-04-2013 09:38PM

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Seems like The Iron Lady admired Ironside Cromwell.
She actually admired what he achieved in Ireland.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/thatcher-proposed-sending-northern-ireland-catholics-to-the-republic-29196422.html

And there are people in the UK that still do today, often though ones that emigrated and returned and live in a time warped UK. The reality is that most people in the UK have matured developed a much more global perspective and while not sorry for historical wrongs (they did not do them) are not the blind britian is best folks that managed to loose 2/3's of the world by being dopey and making little of all "native people" when a more cooperative humble british empire could have been a USA type power.

Again though this is history and UK people will accept criticism of thatcher but be careful not to ram it down the agenda too much least we somehow remind them "how to be moronic for dummies" and they begin to cling to nostalgia for a past they had carelessly forgot. Let her be judged for her failures in the UK and they will attach some other failures too.

Right folks I am going to be a pure huar now and buck out of this thread. It was good reading your comments and its a good forum to do so but I just want to move away from ever hearing her name again.

Fratton Fred · 15-04-2013 09:48PM

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Seems like The Iron Lady admired Ironside Cromwell.
She actually admired what he achieved in Ireland.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/thatcher-proposed-sending-northern-ireland-catholics-to-the-republic-29196422.html

that about sums up this thread tbh.

Nowhere does it say she admired Cromwell or what he achieved in Ireland.:rolleyes:

Mr Tibbs · 15-04-2013 10:04PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that about sums up this thread tbh.

Nowhere does it say she admired Cromwell or what he achieved in Ireland.:rolleyes:

I disagree with you, does it not state in the article her admiration of Cromwell.
I remember this time well and a lot of her senior party colleague's were shocked by some of her suggestion's. Don't be so quick to put something down because you disagree with what is being said. She was a very divisive figure who was no friend to this country. She does not command very much respect here.

true · 15-04-2013 10:24PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There are constant accusations that she hated Ireland, but despite asking for it many times, no one has come up with any evidence.

+1. Her government supported Ireland financially through all the money it gave us via / through the EEC. Hundreds of thousands of Irish people got good jobs in Britain and were treated well there, inc some of my relations and friends. She supported the democratic wishes of the majority in N. Ireland.
Despite what some irish people did to her friends and colleagues ( eg Airey Neave ), nobody has any proof she hated Ireland. While some Gardai and Irish soldiers paid the ultimate price fighting the PIRA, her forces were the cutting edge ;we should be grateful for her courage, hard work and determination. In 100 years she will be looked on as one of the wisest / best politicians Europe ever had. People admire her courage, guts and determination.
n.b. she was proved right about the euro, just as she was proved right about Gadaffi, the Argentinian dictatorship, the cold war, the PIRA and socialism.

Mr Tibbs · 15-04-2013 10:38PM

true wrote: »

+1. Her government supported Ireland financially through all the money it gave us via / through the EEC. Hundreds of thousands of Irish people got good jobs in Britain and were treated well there, inc some of my relations and friends. She supported the democratic wishes of the majority in N. Ireland.
Despite what some irish people did to her friends and colleagues ( eg Airey Neave ), nobody has any proof she hated Ireland. While some Gardai and Irish soldiers paid the ultimate price fighting the PIRA, her forces were the cutting edge ;we should be grateful for her courage, hard work and determination. In 100 years she will be looked on as one of the wisest / best politicians Europe ever had. People admire her courage, guts and determination.
n.b. she was proved right about the euro, just as she was proved right about Gadaffi, the Argentinian dictatorship, the cold war, the PIRA and socialism.

You conveniently forgot to mention Augusto Pinochet, and her support of The Khmer Rouge. Proved right about socialism please try and remain balanced.

true · 15-04-2013 10:45PM

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

You conveniently forgot to mention Augusto Pinochet...

She was elected by the people of the UK to look after the interests of the UK. The support of Pinochets Chile was crucial in winning the Falklands back, and saving the lives of thousands in her taskforce. Its been well debated already, go back and read it. No G7 leader who had been in power 11 years has never escaped making the odd mistake or piece of controversy. She was no infallible anyway. Sometimes world leaders have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils etc.

Mr Tibbs · 15-04-2013 10:54PM

true wrote: »

She was elected by the people of the UK to look after the interests of the UK. The support of Pinochets Chile was crucial in winning the Falklands back, and saving the lives of thousands in her taskforce. Its been well debated already, go back and read it. No G7 leader who had been in power 11 years has never escaped making the odd mistake or piece of controversy. She was no infallible anyway. Sometimes world leaders have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils etc.

Come on try and remain balanced Pinochet was a monster this Falklands story is as believable as the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. European leaders baulked when she gave him political aslum when he was wanted for war crimes in Chile. Her support for The Khmer Rouge was criminal.

Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

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