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Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

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Comments

  • #1322
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    true wrote: »
    They did not get what they wanted. They wanted a "united Ireland". They wanted "Brits out". I remember that even being daubed on the walls in the eighties. I feel sorry for you, you've been brainwashed.

    A united Ireland is still very much on the cards.
    The British 'didn't want' to negociate with terrorists...they did.
    The British 'didn't want' us to even hear SF...they now share power and are the most electorally successful nationalist party in NI
    The British now accept that their 'stay' in Ireland is no longer up to them.
    N.I. is now being normalised by SF and other democratic parties.


  • #1323
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    A united Ireland is still very much on the cards.
    not in our lifetime, or probably ever,. Latest polls shows an increasing and very substantial number of catholic people there who wish to remain part of the UK. Cannot say I blame them.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The British 'didn't want' to negociate with terrorists...they did.
    In the seventies they even had talks with terrorists : nothing new there. The terrorists continued for decades more and achieved nothing as a result.


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The British 'didn't want' us to even hear SF..
    SF is a lot different now to the days when it advocated violence.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The British now accept that their 'stay' in Ireland is no longer up to them.
    Even in the 70's many if not most of the English would have left Ireland if they could, as it was an embarassment to them, and costing them blood 'n money.
    They would have left just as they left so many other places throughout the world if it were not for the fact nearly all the MP's from N. Ireland then were unionist. During the 70's or 80's the "mainland" British never had great strategic or economic reason to maintain the link with N.I.
    To her credit, I think Mrs Thatcher understood the loyalty of the majority in N. Ireland, and respected that. Loyalty was something Thatcher understood and respected.


  • #1324
    Norwesterner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    A united Ireland is still very much on the cards.
    The British 'didn't want' to negociate with terrorists...they did.
    The British 'didn't want' us to even hear SF...they now share power and are the most electorally successful nationalist party in NI
    The British now accept that their 'stay' in Ireland is no longer up to them.
    N.I. is now being normalised by SF and other democratic parties.

    Former IRA men like Paddy Devlin were in Stormont in 1972 in a power sharing Government.
    Adams and Mc Guinness called them traitors.
    The option for SF to enter Stormont was there for decades.
    They refused to enter, as they claimed they wouldn't accept an internal 6 county solution.
    As for SF "normalising N.I", I'd agree with you, but they spent 40 years opposing normalisation and trying to make the North ungovernable.
    They previously claimed it was a failed illegal entity, now why would they want to normalise that???
    Their current stance on the Constitutional issue is identical to the stance the Tories had throughout the Troubles.
    They achieved nothing as regards core Republican ideals and goals.


  • #1325
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,734 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    can anyone tell me why this women is so hated i was born in the late eightys so i never heard of her till this week


  • #1326
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Do you reckon maybe that's been covered somewhere in these 89 pages already? Read back a little.


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  • #1327
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Playboy wrote: »
    lol nice contribution... that the limit of your involvement in the debate? Or do you just like to trot out one liners because your knowledge of most issues is extremely limited?

    I'm not the one with an agenda here trying to paint a picture of a tyrant when in fact she was a democratically elected leader who won three terms of office. Most of the allegations against Thatcher simply don't stand up to scrutiny. People get a bee in their bonnet about certain issues because it plays into their own political agenda whether that is republicans or socialists or both. All of a sudden the internet is full of experts who lap up whatever BS the rags dream up. As I said have a look at the most recent UK Question Time and you will see most of these myths get debunked by politicians who were there. The lefts issue with Thatcher looks ridiculously petty and it still does. People still hankering after a socialist state in the West... mostly layabouts who cant be arsed to make something of themselves so decide to moan about other peoples success.


    ^^ This.

    My 20 year old niece told me that she downloaded ding-dong. When I asked her why she said that it was because (and I quote) "Thatcher was nasty and she, like, hated the people in the north and didn't want the miners to work so she sacked them all so that she could take the money and keep it for her and the other politicians. And she sent in the police to beat them up when they protested".

    That kind of guff is picked up from reading nonsense chat on boards like this. She had no idea that the country was bankrupt, that there had been 3 day weeks, that rubbish wasn't being collected from the streets, that hospitals (yes, even in London) were only dealing with A&E, and that the unions were not budging on a single issue, with Scargill using the workers as his own army to try to bring down another government. And that she was democratically elected 3 times

    And this is what she said. "oh". I think she felt a little embarrased about being taken in by all the SHOUTING by people who weren't even there


  • #1328
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    mr.correct wrote: »
    she was a horrible old Cun# and she detested the Irish people even denouncing her great great grandmother who was from cork

    Could you provide some evidence of this? This has been stated several times, yet no one has been able to provide any evidence of this?


  • #1329
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    true wrote: »
    not in our lifetime, or probably ever,. Latest polls shows an increasing and very substantial number of catholic people there who wish to remain part of the UK. Cannot say I blame them.
    Yes and hail and hearty people said there would be no peace in their lifetimes. Watch as the tide turns and the British begin promoting it overtly, they are doing it covertly at the minute. The Unionists have long since lost the support of the British government.

    In the seventies they even had talks with terrorists : nothing new there. The terrorists continued for decades more and achieved nothing as a result.
    In the 70's the British tried to dictate terms, the IRA said No and we all know what happened. EVENTUALLY and INEVITABLY the British realised what they had to do, particularily after Canary Wharf, (they believed their own bull**** that the IRA was defeated)
    Major was shocked that they could strike at the heart of London.



    SF is a lot different now to the days when it advocated violence.
    SF are still saying what they said in the 80's, don't mistake the two organisations...Maggiie made the same mistake.
    And have the Unionists not changed a tad too? (The Chuckle Brothers, Robinson sharing power?) And what about British policy since they realised that the war was unwinable?


    Even in the 70's many if not most of the English would have left Ireland if they could, as it was an embarassment to them, and costing them blood 'n money.
    They would have left just as they left so many other places throughout the world if it were not for the fact nearly all the MP's from N. Ireland then were unionist. During the 70's or 80's the "mainland" British never had great strategic or economic reason to maintain the link with N.I.
    To her credit, I think Mrs Thatcher understood the loyalty of the majority in N. Ireland, and respected that. Loyalty was something Thatcher understood and respected.

    Unfortunately, the British had to be bombed into realising just what they where supporting.
    At various times Thatcher was prepared to sell out every single group or person who was 'loyal'. Open your eyes and stop believeng the PR.


  • #1330
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Deleted User wrote: »
    can anyone tell me why this women is so hated i was born in the late eightys so i never heard of her till this week

    A beginners guide > > > > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84143040&postcount=1283

    Margaret Thatcher left power in 1990, after being ejected by her own conservative party.


  • #1331
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    People with an 'agenda', you say???

    Ken Clarke and the rest on the Question Time panel 'debunking' you say? :pac::pac::pac::pac:

    Typical of your style of debating to only name the 1 tory on the panel. The others were;

    .Participant David Blunkett - Labour
    .Participant Charles Moore - Thatchers biographer
    .Participant Polly Toynbee - Guardian columinst and social democrat
    .Participant Ken Clarke - Tory
    .Participant Menzies Campbell - Lib Dem

    All with much better idea of what went on in Thatchers government than you.


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  • #1332
    Winty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    Sorry if this has been posted I have not read the whole thread

    What if any Irish people are on the guest list for the funeral


  • #1333
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Playboy wrote: »
    Typical of your style of debating to only name the 1 tory on the panel. The others were;

    .Participant David Blunkett - Labour - Anti Thatcher and bitter about what she had done.
    .Participant Charles Moore - Thatchers biographer - Made a twat out of himself and MT if that was anymore possible. The audience let him know it several times.
    .Participant Polly Toynbee - Guardian columinst and social democrat. -Very much critical of Thatcher and her policy.
    .Participant Ken Clarke - Tory - Well he would say that wouldn't he?
    .Participant Menzies Campbell - Lib Dem - Overall, critical of Thatcher and her policies.

    All with much better idea of what went on in Thatchers government than you.


    .Participant David Blunkett - Labour - Anti Thatcher and bitter about what she had done.
    .Participant Charles Moore - Thatchers biographer - Made a twat out of himself and MT if that was anymore possible. The audience let him know it several times.
    .Participant Polly Toynbee - Guardian columinst and social democrat. -Very much critical of Thatcher and her policy.
    .Participant Ken Clarke - Tory - Well he would say that wouldn't he?
    .Participant Menzies Campbell - Lib Dem - Overall, critical of Thatcher and her policies.

    Typical of all the television coverage, the panel was not reflective of those primarily affected by Thatcherism.
    If you are unaware of how the establishment is trying to rewrite history and re-invent this PM then you are a fool.
    You are never going to get the whole story on the BBC.


  • #1334
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    <snipped>. Open your eyes and stop believeng the PR.


    Probably difficult to deal with anyone considering the ceasefire was only in reality a decrease in hostilities
    22 December 1974: The IRA leadership declared a temporary ceasefire, pending talks with British government officials. Shortly before the ceasefire came into effect, the IRA bombed the London home of the Conservative Party leader and former Prime Minister Edward Heath.[97]

    1975

    10 January 1975: The British Army shot dead unarmed IRA volunteer John Francis Green in a shed in Castleblaney in County Monaghan. The incident is notable as British troops crossed the border to kill an unarmed IRA man at his home.[98][99]
    20 January 1975: IRA volunteer Kevin Coen was shot dead by the British Army in Fermanagh.[98]
    21 January 1975: Two IRA volunteers driving along Victoria Street, Belfast were killed when the bomb they were transporting exploded prematurely. There were also a series of bomb attacks across Belfast.[100]
    24 January 1975: A British soldier was killed in an IRA bomb attack on Colinward Street, Belfast.[98]
    31 January 1975: An RUC officer was shot dead by an IRA sniper while on foot-patrol in Dungannon, County Tyrone.[98]
    8 February 1975: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper while on foot-patrol in the village of Mullan, County Fermanagh.[98]
    10 February 1975: The IRA leadership declare a truce. The ceasefire was to last officially until 23 January 1976, however it was not respected by all IRA units and violence continues throughout the year.
    27 February 1975: Off-duty police officer Stephen Tibble was shot dead as he joined in the chase of a suspect on his motorbike in Barons Court, London. The suspect had been spotted by a detective coming out of a house which was later discovered to be an IRA bomb factory.[101]
    17 March 1975: An unarmed IRA volunteer was shot dead by the Irish Army while attempting to escape from Portlaoise Prison, County Laois.[98]
    24 March 1975: A post office official was shot dead when he arrived at the scene of a robbery at the post office in Silverbridge, County Armagh. It is alleged that the IRA was responsible and that the gunmen thought he was an RUC officer.[102]
    25 April 1975: A UDA member was shot dead as he walked along Bachelor's Walk in Portadown, County Armagh. Gunmen, thought to be IRA volunteers, pulled-up alongside him in a car and opened fire. Although the Sutton Database lists him as a civilian, Lost Lives lists him as a "high-ranking local UDA member".[103]
    2 May 1975: A UDA member was shot dead by the IRA at Ardoyne Bus Depot in Belfast.[98]
    10 May 1975: An RUC officer was shot dead by an IRA sniper while on foot-patrol on Waterloo Road in Derry.[98]
    18 May 1975: An IRA volunteer was stabbed to death in a lane by the UVF in a lane outside Rathfriland, County Down.[98]
    31 May 1975: The IRA kidnapped and shot dead one of their own members from Belfast who they alleged was an informer. His body was returned to his family by the IRA in 1999.[98]
    3 June 1975: A UDR soldier and two civilians were found shot dead in a car in Killeen, County Armagh. The IRA are believed to have been responsible.[98] The UDR soldier was also a member of the Orange Order.[73]
    4 June 1975: An IRA volunteer was shot dead by British soldiers outside the British Army barracks in Bessbrook, County Armagh.[98]
    10 June 1975: A UVF member was shot dead by the IRA in a shop on the Crumlin Road in Belfast.[98]
    7 July 1975: An RUC officer was killed in an IRA booby-trap bomb attack in Lurgan, County Armagh.[98]
    12 July 1975: A UDA member was found shot dead on Old Templepatrick Road at Ballyutoag, County Antrim. He was a doorman at a UDA club. It is believed the IRA was responsible. Although the Sutton Database lists him as a civilian, Lost Lives lists him as UDA member.[104]
    17 July 1975: The IRA killed four British soldiers in a remote controlled bomb attack near Forkill, County Armagh.[105]
    2 August 1975: The IRA shot dead a former UDR soldier near his home in Moy, County Tyrone.[98] He was also a member of the Orange Order.[73]
    13 August 1975: Four Protestant civilians and a member of the UVF were killed in a gun and bomb attack on the Bayardo Bar in Belfast.[100]
    13 August 1975: The IRA kidnapped and shot dead a former RUC officer in County Armagh. His body was found near Newtownhamilton on 15 August 1975.[98] He was also a member of the Orange Order.[73]
    15 August 1975: The IRA shot dead a Protestant civilian at Camrick Bar on Market Street, Armagh town. He was a close friend of Harris Boyle, one of the UVF men killed the month before in the Miami Showband massacre. He and Boyle were often seen together. The IRA said it killed him because of an alleged association with Captain Robert Nairac and claimed it was in possession of his diary, which had been stolen in Portadown.[106]
    27 August 1975: A bomb exploded without warning at the Caterham Arms public house in Caterham, Surrey, England. Ten off-duty British soldiers and 23 civilians were injured.[100]
    28 August 1975: Seven people were injured when a bomb exploded in Oxford Street, London. A telephone warning was issued to The Sun newspaper five minutes before the explosion.[107]
    29 August 1975: A British Army bomb-disposal expert attached to the police was killed attempting to defuse an IRA bomb which had been left in a shoe shop on Kensington Church Street, Kensington, London.[98][108]
    30 August 1975: The IRA shot dead a UDR soldier near Whitecross, County Armagh.[98]
    31 August 1975: The IRA shot dead a UDR soldier on his farm near Keady, County Armagh.[98] He was also a member of the Orange Order.[73]
    5 September 1975: Two people are killed and 63 injured when an IRA bomb exploded in the lobby of the Hilton hotel in London.[109]
    8 September 1975: A UDA member was shot dead by the IRA in the Markets area of Belfast.[98]
    3 October 1975: A bomb exploded at a shop on Albertbridge Road in Belfast, which was owned by Red Hand Commandos leader John McKeague. A Catholic civilian was hurt and died of her injuries on 6 October 1975. It is believed that the IRA was responsible.[98][110]
    6 October 1975: An RUC officer was killed in an IRA bomb attack near Limavady, in County Londonderry.[98]
    9 October 1975: A British soldier was killed in an IRA landmine attack on a British Armoured Patrol in Crossmaglen, County Armagh.[98]
    9 October 1975: A civilian was killed when an IRA bomb exploded outside Green Park tube station in London, England.[98]
    10 October 1975: A UDA member was shot dead in his home by an IRA unit on the Ormeau Road in Belfast.[98]
    14 October 1975: An RUC officer was killed in an IRA booby-trap bomb attack in Portadown, County Armagh.[98]
    29 October 1975: The IRA shot dead an Official IRA (OIRA) volunteer, in McKenna's Bar in the Markets area of Belfast. Between 29 October 1975 and 12 November 1975, 11 people were to die in the continuing feud between the two wings of the IRA. Most of those killed were members of the 'official' republican movement.[98]
    31 October 1975: The IRA shot dead an OIRA volunteer in the Short Strand area of Belfast.[98]
    31 October 1975: An IRA volunteer was shot dead by the OIRA in the New Lodge area of Belfast.[98]
    3 November 1975: The IRA shot dead a Republican Clubs member in the Ballymurphy area of Belfast. Part of the ongoing IRA/OIRA feud.[98]
    3 November 1975: A 33 year old lawyer was injured by a car bomb in Connaught Square, London W2.[107]
    6 November 1975: A UDR soldier was shot dead by the IRA near Newtownhamilton, County Armagh.[98]
    9 November 1975: The IRA shot dead an OIRA volunteer in the New Lodge area of Belfast.[98]
    10 November 1975: A UDR soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper outside Gough British Army Base at Carramoyle, County Armagh.[98]
    11 November 1975: The IRA shot dead an OIRA volunteer, A Republican Clubs member and his relative in separate attacks in Belfast. Part of the ongoing IRA/OIRA feud.[98]
    12 November 1975: A civilian was killed when an IRA unit threw a bomb into Scott's Restaurant on Mount Street, in the upper-class Mayfair area of London.[98]
    16 November 1975: An RUC officer was killed in an IRA landmine attack on a patrol in Sixmilecross in County Tyrone.[98]
    18 November 1975: Two civilians were killed when an IRA unit threw a bomb into Walton's Restaurant on Walton Street, in the Chelsea area of London.[98]
    21 November 1975: A British soldier was killed by an IRA booby-trap bomb when he picked up a rifle which was left in an abandoned car in Forkill, County Armagh.[98]
    22 November 1975: Three British soldiers were killed in a gun battle when an IRA unit attacked their undercover observation post at Drummuckavall, County Armagh. See Drummuckavall ambush.[98]
    25 November 1975: Two RUC officers were killed when their patrol was caught in an IRA sniper ambush in Pomeroy, County Tyrone. In a separate incident a British soldier was shot dead by the IRA in the Fountain area of Derry City.[98]
    27 November 1975: The IRA killed businessman and TV personality Ross McWhirter, who with his brother Norris McWhirter, had offered reward money to anyone who would inform on the IRA.[111]
    1 December 1975: Two IRA volunteers died when killed when the bomb they were transporting exploded accidentally on King Street in Belfast.[98]
    6 December 1975: Two IRA volunteers died when the landmine they were setting exploded accidentally in Killeen, County Armagh.[98]
    6–12 December 1975: Four IRA volunteers held two people hostage in the Balcombe Street Siege.[112]
    18 December 1975: The IRA killed two British soldiers in a bomb attack in Derry. It was later established that the soldiers had been lured out of the sangar by children who offered them sweets. While they were distracted the IRA lowered a bomb onto the roof of their sangar which exploded a few minutes later.[93]

    1976

    13 January 1976: Two IRA volunteers, along with two civilians, were killed when the bomb they were transporting exploded prematurely in North Street, Belfast.[113]
    17 January 1976: A British soldier was shot dead in an IRA gun attack on a British checkpoint in Derry City.[113]
    17 January 1976: A civilian was shot dead by the IRA in the Andersonstown area of Belfast. The IRA claimed he was an informer.[113]
    22 January 1976: A UDR soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper in Claudy, County Londonderry.[113]
    22 January 1976: A civilian was shot dead by the IRA in Dungannon, County Tyrone. The IRA claimed he was an informer.[113]
    23 January 1976: The IRA ceasefire was officially called off.[114]


    Note as the IRA were the ones on "ceasefire" I only quote the attacks claimed or attributed to them


  • #1335
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Winty wrote: »
    Sorry if this has been posted I have not read the whole thread

    What if any Irish people are on the guest list for the funeral

    I've heard Ruairi Quinn and Pat Rabbitte mentioned.


  • #1336
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    .Participant David Blunkett - Labour - Anti Thatcher and bitter about what she had done.
    .Participant Charles Moore - Thatchers biographer - Made a twat out of himself and MT if that was anymore possible. The audience let him know it several times.
    .Participant Polly Toynbee - Guardian columinst and social democrat. -Very much critical of Thatcher and her policy.
    .Participant Ken Clarke - Tory - Well he would say that wouldn't he?
    .Participant Menzies Campbell - Lib Dem - Overall, critical of Thatcher and her policies.

    Typical of all the television coverage, the panel was not reflective of those primarily affected by Thatcherism.
    If you are unaware of how the establishment is trying to rewrite history and re-invent this PM then you are a fool.
    You are never going to get the whole story on the BBC.


    Whilst some were critical they also acknowledged the good that she did and they collectively knocked a lot of the myths on the head. Campbell in particular spoke about the winter of discontent and how the unions wouldnt negotiate. There was none of vitriol evident that has appeared in the media and they all acknowledged that all parties now believe in a society based on a version of Thatcherism, old socialism is dead thanks to Thatcher and none of the mainstream parties want it back.

    No one is trying to rewrite history... some people are just in denial about what actually happened it seems.


  • #1337
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Probably difficult to deal with anyone considering the ceasefire was only in reality a decrease in hostilities



    Note as the IRA were the ones on "ceasefire" I only quote the attacks claimed or attributed to them

    The British attempt and indeed duplicity at this time almost defeated the IRA by proxy or divide and conquer.
    They made overtures about withdrawal that some of the IRA believed and bought, when it turned out that it was, in fact, just another British ploy, (the start of their Ulsterisation and criminalisation policies which had devastating impacts later on) the IRA almost imploded as a result, broke ranks and started a feud, but what emerged was a younger, more militant and lethal organisation that was Northern based. The British duplicity and dirty tricks at this time, ultimately failed to achieve anything but further bloodshed, bloodshed that they could wash their hands off and claim neutrality (because they had handed over dealing with the IRA to the NI security forces) It is called 'shooting yourself in the foot' in intelligent circles as it saw the taking of the battle to the British themselves in Britain.
    Divide and conquer failed miserably. It was the period which ultimately resulted in them losing the war, why? Because they fundamentally didn't understand what was going on and sowed the seeds of their own undoing.


  • #1338
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The British attempt and indeed duplicity at this time almost defeated the IRA by proxy or divide and conquer.
    <snipped the hype> going on and sowed the seeds of their own undoing.

    OK answer me this then, Given that SF is the political party of the republicans in NI and the IRA have officially ceased conflict is the CIRA and RIRA plus whatever other abbreviations are current,now representative of terrorism?


  • #1339
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Playboy wrote: »

    No one is trying to rewrite history...

    Absolutely, but presenting any history and leaving out the voices of those most affected and vitriolic (who exist in large numbers) is nothing more than revisionism and pathetic revisionism at that.


  • #1340
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Absolutely, but presenting any history and leaving out the voices of those most affected and vitriolic (who exist in large numbers) is nothing more than revisionism and pathetic revisionism at that.

    Surely only posting vitriol is exactly the same as what people who paint her as a saint are doing?

    As with all historical leaders, her tenure should be looked at objectively, something you appear to be unable to do.


  • #1341
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    OK answer me this then, Given that SF is the political party of the republicans in NI and the IRA have officially ceased conflict is the CIRA and RIRA plus whatever other abbreviations are current,now representative of terrorism?

    'Terrorism' is a self serving and largely redundant term, as the British have shown themselves, having always has a very laissez faire relationship with people all over the world that they where only too happy to call at times; 'Terrorists'.
    Do the British and Irish governments still have a major problem with violent republicanism....Yes.


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  • #1342
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Surely only posting vitriol is exactly the same as what people who paint her as a saint are doing?

    There is a willing and obscene effort to airbrush out the vitriol this woman's tenure and policy engendered. That is wholly wrong and divisive.
    As with all historical leaders, her tenure should be looked at objectively, something you appear to be unable to do.
    Not representing ALL SIDES of the debate is hardly 'objectivity'.


  • #1343
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    There is a willing and obscene effort to airbrush out the vitriol this woman's tenure and policy engendered. That is wholly wrong and divisive.


    Not representing ALL SIDES of the debate is hardly 'objectivity'.

    So you will agree that after the union related problems of the 70s, Britain desperately need major changer

    You will also agree that the miners were badly lead by a self serving leader who would never have budged and the resultant miners strike was always going to happen?

    And you'll also agree that the hardline shown by Thatcher towards the IRA was understandable based on the backdrop of a bloody London bombing campaign by the balcombe street gang and the murder of Lord Mountbatten?


  • #1344
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    So you will agree that after the union related problems of the 70s, Britain desperately need major changer
    Yes
    You will also agree that the miners were badly lead by a self serving leader who would never have budged and the resultant miners strike was always going to happen?
    Possibly.
    And you'll also agree that the hardline shown by Thatcher towards the IRA was understandable based on the backdrop of a bloody London bombing campaign by the balcombe street gang and the murder of Lord Mountbatten?
    A PM should never have let personal grievances govern their decisions. Thatcher was unable to subdue her stubborness, prolonged the conflict and exacerbated it.

    Again, it is not so much 'what she did' it is all about 'how she done it'


  • #1345
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Happyman42 wrote: »

    A PM should never have let personal grievances govern their decisions. Thatcher was unable to subdue her stubborness, prolonged the conflict and exacerbated it.

    Again, it is not so much 'what she did' it is all about 'how she done it'

    I agree, the way she went about things was one of her many failings, the objective was often the right one though.

    It wasn't just her personal feelings with regards the IRA, there was a very strong anti IRA feeling I'm England at the time, we'd had Birmingham, Guildford, woolwich and the numerous other indiscriminate bombings, plus the murder of a popular children's t.v. Presenter.

    Add to that the murder of very popular popular member of the royalty, (along with his guests) and the pro republican feeling in the UK wasn't exactly at an all time high. I know you refer to her duplicity with regard. Sinn Fein, but it was actually sensible politics. Talking to the IRA was the right thing, but announcing it publicly would have been political suicide.


  • #1346
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    'Terrorism' is a self serving and largely redundant term, as the British have shown themselves, having always has a very laissez faire relationship with people all over the world that they where only too happy to call at times; 'Terrorists'.
    Do the British and Irish governments still have a major problem with violent republicanism....Yes.


    Soooo given that GA and MMcG are now the official voice of SF and republicanism and that the British/Irish and NI governments still have a major problem with terrorist( lets not bandy words around ) republicanism do you think that MT and all the previous and present governments of Britain, Ireland and NI have NEVER been talking to the correct people?


  • #1347
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Soooo given that GA and MMcG are now the official voice of SF
    Correct.
    and republicanism
    Wrong
    and that the British/Irish and NI governments still have a major problem with terrorist( lets not bandy words around ) republicanism do you think that MT and all the previous and present governments of Britain, Ireland and NI have NEVER been talking to the correct people?

    MT and all previous and present governments have never understood the complexity of the problem or the conflict and have insisted on blanket self serving terminology like 'terrorist' etc.
    Inevitably and eventually they will be forced to deal with all of the people involved. The lesson they never learn or want to learn.


  • #1348
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Correct.

    Wrong



    MT and all previous and present governments have never understood the complexity of the problem or the conflict and have insisted on blanket self serving terminology like 'terrorist' etc.
    Inevitably and eventually they will be forced to deal with all of the people involved. The lesson they never learn or want to learn.


    So (in your opinion) GA and MMcG could never deliver on their promises after they held talks with the various governments, because they weren't the official representatives of the republican movement.

    So, therefore, they were as duplicitous (if not more so) than any one else in negotiating with the Irish/NI/UK governments and have so far codded their way into any Parliamentary/Dail seats under false pretenses?


  • #1349
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    So (in your opinion) GA and MMcG could never deliver on their promises after they held talks with the various governments, because they weren't the official representatives of the republican movement.

    So, therefore, they were as duplicitous (if not more so) than any one else in negotiating with the Irish/NI/UK governments and have so far codded their way into any Parliamentary/Dail seats under false pretenses?

    :rolleyes: oh dear!
    No wonder the British have difficulty.


  • #1350
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    :rolleyes: oh dear!
    No wonder the British have difficulty.

    Love the way that when a discussion isn't going the way people like they drop a generalisation and a smiley into the thread rather than answer! ;)


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  • #1351
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Love the way that when a discussion isn't going the way people like they drop a generalisation and a smiley into the thread rather than answer! ;)

    It is such a ridiculous statement, all it warranted was a smiley tbh.
    Would you be similarly stupid enough to believe that Peter Robinson could deliver Jim McAlister? After all they are both Unionists.


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