Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

ToddyDoody · 10-04-2013 07:18PM

Her gun collection will appreciate greatly in value now that she's not for this world.

Nodin · 10-04-2013 07:35PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I make you sick? The strongest emotion you induce in me is pity. Once you target innocent people instead of soldiers then you are a terrorist. People like to whitewash over nasty bits of history (e.g. people calling Mandela a 'saint') but I'm not having it

Except for Thatcher and those that suit your own ideology, by the looks of it.

purplepanda · 10-04-2013 07:35PM

So much for a balanced political debate in the media in Britain regarding her legacy, instead we have an Orwellian deluge of Thatcherite sycopants taking over the airwaves.

Josef Goebbels would certainly have approved of the perfection of the art he helped create.!!! :pac:

All opposing viewpoints are just portrayed as extreme left lunatics when the fact is many across the entire political spectrum have strong opinions on the debate but are just being totally marginalised.

A sad time for democracy :mad:

Nodin · 10-04-2013 07:38PM

purplepanda wrote: »

So much for a balanced political debate in the media in Britain regarding her legacy, instead we have an Orwellian deluge of Thatcherite sycopants taking over the airwaves.

Josef Goebbels would certainly have approved of the perfection of the art he helped create.!!! :pac:

All opposing viewpoints are just portrayed as extreme left lunatics when the fact is many across the entire political spectrum have strong opinions on the debate but are just being totally marginalised.

A sad time for democracy :mad:

I'd wager were there a bit more sanity in the debate on the airwaves, there'd be less dancing in the street.

Suryavarman · 10-04-2013 07:54PM

purplepanda wrote: »

So much for a balanced political debate in the media in Britain regarding her legacy, instead we have an Orwellian deluge of Thatcherite sycopants taking over the airwaves.

Josef Goebbels would certainly have approved of the perfection of the art he helped create.!!! :pac:

All opposing viewpoints are just portrayed as extreme left lunatics when the fact is many across the entire political spectrum have strong opinions on the debate but are just being totally marginalised.

A sad time for democracy :mad:

A sad time for democracy indeed when there are people having street parties to celebrate the death of a democratically elected former Prime Minister :rolleyes:

Lingua Franca · 10-04-2013 08:01PM

purplepanda wrote: »

All opposing viewpoints are just portrayed as extreme left lunatics when the fact is many across the entire political spectrum have strong opinions on the debate but are just being totally marginalised.

There was a programme on the BBC about her last night talking with a bunch of her old cabinet ministers and her daughter Carol.

Every one of them talked about how unfriendly and harsh she was, how she had tunnel vision with regards to her career and nothing else. She had no fun or joy in her life and cared for nothing except politics.

I'm no fan of Carol Thatcher's but her childhood sounds miserable. And I know that despite the dementia, she'd been estranged from her mother for yearsl. Both of her children were living abroad when she died. Neither of them visited her during her recent health scares.

Her best friend was Ronald Reagan, of all people, and she even considered him to be her intellectual inferior.

Her cabinet ministers all used the same word about her. Bully. Over and over again, the word bully. That she tried to run the entire government as a one woman show. They said her end had come when she yelled at and scolded Geoffrey Howe like a child for a good ten minutes in front of the entire cabinet because he "hadn't done all his boxes". They all said it was completely out of order and unwarranted and that it's what led to her downfall - she went to a meeting in Paris rather than address the leadership challenge because she arrogantly assumed that she was untouchable.

Basically, while she was much admired for her political acumen and ability, the people closest to her personally loathed and feared her.

space_man · 10-04-2013 08:03PM

Weathering wrote: »

And it amuses me when someone defination of a terrorist comes back and bites them in the a..e and they have nothing left to say in response to that other than gibberish and they choose to ignore it. The only person that is incapable of a debate is you as you haven't addressed the last point made to you in which you stated terrorists are people who attack/kill innocent people instead of soldiers. I alluded you to the fact the british army are indeed guilty of your defination bloody sunday in derry being an example. Collusion with protestant terrorist factions who bombed dublin and monaghan. I rest my case,look for yours

Tbh there's nothing new there. The Brits have used terrorism against the civilian population of Ireland for centuries, from Cromwell through to the 'tans. It's ironic though that in their efforts to defeat the IRA, they themselves had to become/act as terrorists.

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 08:26PM

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Perhaps because it's mainly the young who are suffering from the terrible results of her de-regulation of the banks and financial services and her doctrinaire devotion to the Milton Friedman lunacy.

BTW The Judy Garland version of the Wizard of Oz song 'Ding Dong! the witch is dead' raced to number 1 on the Amazon charts tonight.

YAY !

:D

The young in Britain are suffering because of this decision
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13032013

Banjo String · 10-04-2013 08:27PM

Suryavarman wrote: »

A sad time for democracy indeed when there are people having street parties to celebrate the death of a democratically elected former Prime Minister :rolleyes:

That's one of the beauties of democracy actually.

Democratically elected or nor. If the people that think she was a cnut want to dance and celebrate her death, they have the democratic right to do so.

Precious flower · 10-04-2013 08:30PM

What makes me laugh is that most of the people writing and saying vile things about her weren't even born when she was in power! Personally, I don't feel it's my place to pass judgment on her as I wasn't born when she was in power. In the end, regardless of what she did when she was in power I feel neither she or her family deserve to have that kind of abuse that has been thrown at her these last two days.

SV · 10-04-2013 08:32PM

Precious flower wrote: »

What makes me laugh is that most of the people writing and saying vile things about her weren't even born when she was in power! Personally, I don't feel it's my place to pass judgment on her as I wasn't born when she was in power. In the end, regardless of what she did when she was in power I feel neither she or her family deserve to have that kind of abuse that has been thrown at her these last two days.

Talk about contradicting yourself.

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 08:32PM

SamHall wrote: »

That's one of the beauties of democracy actually.

Democratically elected or nor. If the people that think she was a cnut want to dance and celebrate her death, they have the democratic right to do so.

That's true.
But do you think people should exercise that right?
Would you defend the right of Far Right extremists to hold street parties if George Galloway or Ken Livingstone died.
Do you think the British police would let them?
I think not, and would use some Public Order Bill to shift them.

I know of a guy in the North who was arrested and charged for celebrating the death of a PSNI officer in his Facebook page.

Banjo String · 10-04-2013 08:37PM

Precious flower wrote: »

What makes me laugh is that most of the people writing and saying vile things about her weren't even born when she was in power! Personally, I don't feel it's my place to pass judgment on her as I wasn't born when she was in power. In the end, regardless of what she did when she was in power I feel neither she or her family deserve to have that kind of abuse that has been thrown at her these last two days.

I bet you've no opinion on Hitler either so.

How about Jesus?

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 08:38PM

Anyone care to explain why this man is arrested and charged for airing his views online......and thousands this week are not.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/exira-chiefs-son-faces-kerr-internet-hate-charge-28639225.html

space_man · 10-04-2013 08:41PM

SamHall wrote: »

That's one of the beauties of democracy actually.

Democratically elected or nor. If the people that think she was a cnut want to dance and celebrate her death, they have the democratic right to do so.

I personally would not dance in the streets, but I can empathize with people who would do so.
Thatcher was a malignant creature IMHO and my only regret is lived so long/at all.

My name is URL · 10-04-2013 08:44PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

Anyone care to explain why this man is arrested and charged for airing his views online......and thousands this week are not.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/exira-chiefs-son-faces-kerr-internet-hate-charge-28639225.html

Well leaving aside the absolute scummy nature of the guy, new guidelines were introduced recently which means people are far less likely to be arrested for posting offensive material online.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20777002

Banjo String · 10-04-2013 08:46PM

space_man wrote: »

I personally would not dance in the streets, but I can empathize with people who would do so.
Thatcher was a malignant creature IMHO and my only regret is lived so long/at all.

I wouldn't dance on the streets either, and I've read some pretty venomous posrs about the woman both here and Facebook.

I will admit to having a few cheekie cans last night, but I feel that a certain event in my own personal life, has been finalised.

St.Spodo · 10-04-2013 08:47PM

I'm not too impressed with some feminists appropriating Thatcher as an inspiration. She did nothing to advance women's concerns in her tenure and made life much more difficult for many working class women and mothers.

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 08:49PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Well leaving aside the absolute scummy nature of the guy, new guidelines were introduced recently which means people are far less likely to be arrested for posting offensive material online.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20777002

"Scummy nature of the guy"??
Can you elaborate on what you base this on?

Is this different from celebrating Thatchers death (or anyone's death)?
Is it different from Galloway's tweet?
Yes or No?

I can understand the Northern guys post more than these teens partying in England given that he grew up with house raid, harassment, and State abuse.

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 08:53PM

SamHall wrote: »

I wouldn't dance on the streets either, and I've read some pretty venomous posrs about the woman both here and Facebook.

I will admit to having a few cheekie cans last night, but I feel that a certain event in my own personal life, has been finalised.

I grew up in the North in the 70's and 80's too.
She was elected in 1979, so any bad memories you have regarding the North in the 70's (the worst period) were Labour policies.
I think there's a danger that people are assuming that life before Thatcher was fantastic, and there were no factories closed, no strikes, no unemployment, no crime, and no conflict in the North is just nonsense.

R P McMurphy · 10-04-2013 08:55PM

Precious flower wrote: »

What makes me laugh is that most of the people writing and saying vile things about her weren't even born when she was in power! Personally, I don't feel it's my place to pass judgment on her as I wasn't born when she was in power. In the end, regardless of what she did when she was in power I feel neither she or her family deserve to have that kind of abuse that has been thrown at her these last two days.

People may not have been born when she was in power but many had to live with the consequences of decisions she had taken and that gives them a right to pass criticism on her and her policies. A significant one, which I have not seen mentioned, has been the development of mad cow disease. Now you might say that is just digging up more stuff to throw at her but it happened directly as a result if a decision she had taken to facilitate a lower burning temperature of animal carcasses. This was long campaigned for as a cost cutting meadure and was facilitated by the thatcher government, which had made substantial donations. A clear example of industry flexing its muscle for cost cutting and resulting in severe consequences for unsuspecting members of the public

space_man · 10-04-2013 08:58PM

SamHall wrote: »

I wouldn't dance on the streets either, and I've read some pretty venomous posrs about the woman both here and Facebook.

I will admit to having a few cheekie cans last night, but I feel that a certain event in my own personal life, has been finalised.

There are 2 types of leader, those who unite and those who divide.
It's clear which category she was, even in death.

Grandpa Hassan · 10-04-2013 08:58PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

I grew up in the North in the 70's and 80's too.
She was elected in 1979, so any bad memories you have regarding the North in the 70's (the worst period) were Labour policies.
I think there's a danger that people are assuming that life before Thatcher was fantastic, and there were no factories closed, no strikes, no unemployment, no crime, and no conflict in the North is just nonsense.

There's no danger of that happening. It's already happened. Apparently thatcher destroyed a paradise of social harmony.....

Banjo String · 10-04-2013 08:58PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

I grew up in the North in the 70's and 80's too.
She was elected in 1979, so any bad memories you have regarding the North in the 70's (the worst period) were Labour policies.

Just for clarity here. Did you support the woman or what?

I can't get the head around the nature of your posts tbh.

My name is URL · 10-04-2013 08:59PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

"Scummy nature of the guy"??
Can you elaborate on what you base this on?

I base it on the fact he said what he said. Did that police officer ever cause personal harm to the guy?

Is this different from celebrating Thatchers death (or anyone's death)?
Is it different from Galloway's tweet?
Yes or No?

Not too sure what Galloway said but yes, it's different to commenting on Thatcher's death. His words could be seen to be inciting sectarian hatred & violence given the volatile circumstances and context in which he was speaking. Police and courts are always going to come down harder on that kind of thing because of all the stuff that usually goes with it.

space_man · 10-04-2013 09:04PM

R P McMurphy wrote: »

People may not have been born when she was in power but many had to live with the consequences of decisions she had taken and that gives them a right to pass criticism on her and her policies. A significant one, which I have not seen mentioned, has been the development of mad cow disease. Now you might say that is just digging up more stuff to throw at her but it happened directly as a result if a decision she had taken to facilitate a lower burning temperature of animal carcasses. This was long campaigned for as a cost cutting meadure and was facilitated by the thatcher government, which had made substantial donations. A clear example of industry flexing its muscle for cost cutting and resulting in severe consequences for unsuspecting members of the public

She sure unleashed her very own personal strain of the disease! LOL

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 09:08PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I base it on the fact he said what he said. Did that police officer ever cause personal harm to the guy?

Not too sure what Galloway said but yes, it's different to commenting on Thatcher's death. His words could be seen to be inciting sectarian hatred & violence given the volatile circumstances and context in which he was speaking. Police and courts are always going to come down harder on that kind of thing because of all the stuff that usually goes with it.

So it a sign of a functioning democracy that people are allowed to celebrate others deaths as long as you personally don't like the person being celebrated?

As for your other point.
Would you agree with arresting those who gloat over a killed IRA member on the basis it would "inflame sectarianism and hatred in a volatile situation??

You're just cherry picking and creating a hierachy of victims.
Either the rule is for everyone or it's a farce.
Celebrate a PSNI man getting killed and you get arrested.
Celebrate Alan Ryan getting killed and it's fine.

Spook_ie · 10-04-2013 09:14PM

karma_ wrote: »

That's fine, the vast majority of nationalists in the North did not want violent action in their defence either. Having said that, there was a cause worth fighting for in the North, as it was a desperately unjust society back then. The Civil Rights campaign was on the right track only to be completely destroyed by Bloody Sunday.

Fast forward to the Hunger strike - and we have testimony from John Hume that all Thatcher had to give was to allow the strikers to wear their own clothes and partake in some free association. She refused, then recanted after the first few strikers died. What was the point? Such intransigence and political myopia. How many paid for that act of hubris?

Now we have posters who laud her 'Iron will' and 'never back down' attitude. Those are not good qualities for a human being never mind a politician.

There were 5 demands from the hunger strikers

The right not to wear a prison uniform;
The right not to do prison work;
The right of free association with other prisoners, and to organise educational and recreational pursuits;
The right to one visit, one letter and one parcel per week;
Full restoration of remission lost through the protest.

It all depends on the viewpoint were they criminals (Terrorists) or were they political activists (Freedom Fighters).

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 09:17PM

SamHall wrote: »

Just for clarity here. Did you support the woman or what?

I can't get the head around the nature of your posts tbh.

I didn't support her.
But not for the same reasons as those celebrating.
I disagreed with her on the Irish Constitutional question.
(And still do, unlike Sinn Fein).
If I was British, I'd probably think she brought the country back from the brink economically (IMF in Britain, Winter of Discontent was what she inherited).

I think the celebrations in England are fakish and forced, and peope are pretending to be ecstatic for "theatre and imagery".
It's a stunt basically. I just don't buy it.

I'm indifferent to her death as it won't change a damn thing.
Had she died in 84 in Brighton, as a Republican I'd have been worked up about it, but I can't get worked up over this.

karma_ · 10-04-2013 09:19PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

There were 5 demands from the hunger strikers

The right not to wear a prison uniform;
The right not to do prison work;
The right of free association with other prisoners, and to organise educational and recreational pursuits;
The right to one visit, one letter and one parcel per week;
Full restoration of remission lost through the protest.

It all depends on the viewpoint were they criminals (Terrorists) or were they political activists (Freedom Fighters).

And I'm saying that Hume had guarantees that if the two demands I listed were met the strike would have been called off.

Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

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