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Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

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Comments

  • #782
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes. And in other threads that you were in.
    Nodin wrote: »
    More likely your brain refused to accept the knowledge and excreted doanwannaknowcicles to deal the problem.



    And what percentage of the vote did she get at her most popular Fred?
    Nodin wrote: »
    ...given the system that was/is there. However the "how come the people elected her 3 times" gives the illusion that a majority wanted her in and this was some popular wave that lasted throughout her tenure. Twas not so.
    Nodin wrote: »
    42% is not a majority of the vote. Not in this dimension anyway.



    .....with 42% of the electorate. At her peak.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Don't see where you're getting that from. Given the eccentricities of the British system, it makes no sense.
    Nodin wrote: »
    No!!!!!!!!!

    The fact is that she was not some massively popular leader, contrary to the impression some would like you to have.
    Nodin wrote: »
    You seem desperate to get the last word in and quibble Fred. Which, considering the fact that I'm right, is somewhat baffling.

    At her most popular, 58% of voters preferred somebody else. A majority of the vote went elsewhere. Therefore this "but the people elected her three times" thing - which implies a popular majority throughout her three terms - is bollocks.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Quibble, last word again? Or is it the doanwannaknowcicles being generated?

    She got - at her peak - 42% of the vote. 58% of people wanted some other group/groups in. While this may have given her a victory in terms of the British system, it would be factually incorrect to claim that she won the majority of votes cast. Therefore the implication of needs a few caveats attached.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Good jesus....it wasn't the majority of those that voted.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1983
    Nodin wrote: »
    The tory party was more popular than any other single alternative. It did not, however, ever have an overall majority of the popular vote.
    Nodin wrote: »
    ...I don't know what you're getting at. If somebody made the same claim for labour, I'd raise the same point.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes, given my politics I'd be an obvious defender of 'New' labour. I even have a Tony Blair t-shirt.
    Nodin wrote: »
    ...because its an insane system, which often gives vast majorities to parties who don't have a majority of votes cast.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Well that would depend on the system. My point isn't related to that, but to the notion and implication that she was somehow massively popular - she wasn't.

    Given that your last few pages of posts have been about how she was not massively popular, it isn't too much of a leap to make the assumption that you are making her out to be massively unpopular, which by the fact that she won 3 elections, led the UK as PM for 11 years 6 months and the Conservatives as leader for 15 years 9 months is patently not the case.


  • #783
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Given that your last few pages of posts have been about how she was not massively popular, it isn't too much of a leap to make the assumption that you are making her out to be massively unpopular, which by the fact that she won 3 elections, led the UK as PM for 11 years 6 months and the Conservatives as leader for 15 years 9 months is patently not the case.


    A false dichotomy. My point from the outset is that she was not voted in by a majority of British voters. Thats a fact.


  • #784
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Nodin wrote: »
    A false dichotomy. My point from the outset is that she was not voted in by a majority of British voters. Thats a fact.


    No I believe that your main diatribe was she wasn't massively popular
    The fact is that she was not some massively popular leader
    which implies a popular majority throughout her three terms - is bollocks.
    She got - at her peak - 42% of the vote. 58% of people wanted some other group/groups in
    Good jesus....it wasn't the majority of those that voted.
    It did not, however, ever have an overall majority of the popular vote.
    My point isn't related to that, but to the notion and implication that she was somehow massively popular - she wasn't.


    Now as the electoral system in the UK is not PR would you please stop using them as a straight percentage figure, they don't use PR

    EDIT If they did use PR I would agree with you BUT they don't


  • #785
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    No I believe that your main diatribe was she wasn't massively popular.

    That would be true as well. This is not news.


  • #786
    Madam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Madam


    I'm just surprised there are so many posts on here about Mrs T it being an Irish website!:confused:


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  • #787
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Really? You might want to sit down before you see how many posts there are in this thread.

    It's a discussion board. People will talk. There's nothing in the rules to say the talk must only be about Irish issues and Irish figures.


  • #788
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Madam wrote: »
    I'm just surprised there are so many posts on here about Mrs T it being an Irish website!:confused:


    International divisive figure. If her main contribution had been more localised and less extreme nobody would be too pushed.


  • #789
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Madam wrote: »
    I'm just surprised there are so many posts on here about Mrs T it being an Irish website!:confused:

    And many of us Irish live outside of Ireland - these boards are international with an international audience.


  • #790
    ancapailldorcha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,448 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I just can't bring myself to cheer at someone's death. What really gets me is these keyboard warriors just jumping on the bandwagon when they know little or nothing about Thatcher to begin with.
    Is there any reason people here seem delighted with her death?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #791
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I just can't bring myself to cheer at someone's death. What really gets me is these keyboard warriors just jumping on the bandwagon when they know little or nothing about Thatcher to begin with.
    Is there any reason people here seem delighted with her death?

    Deaths of 10 hunger strikers, friendship with Pinochet, support of the Khmer Rouge, decimation of entire communities in Northern England, destruction of industry, the drive for the type of market practices that have us in the mess we are today, her support for apartheid - where to begin?

    News just in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22087702

    I'm not dancing on her grave but I'm not going to lose any sleep on her passing.


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  • #792
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    old hippy wrote: »
    Deaths of 10 hunger strikers, friendship with Pinochet, support of the Khmer Rouge, decimation of entire communities in Northern England, destruction of industry, the drive for the type of market practices that have us in the mess we are today, her support for apartheid - where to begin?

    News just in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22087702

    I'm not dancing on her grave but I'm not going to lose any sleep on her passing.

    You missed out baby eating and human sacrifice.


  • #793
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Russell Brand has a great article in the Guardian


  • #794
    extra gravy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭extra gravy


    old hippy wrote: »
    Deaths of 10 hunger strikers, friendship with Pinochet, support of the Khmer Rouge, decimation of entire communities in Northern England, destruction of industry, the drive for the type of market practices that have us in the mess we are today, her support for apartheid - where to begin?

    News just in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22087702

    I'm not dancing on her grave but I'm not going to lose any sleep on her passing.

    They starved themselves. Therefore, their deaths were their own faults. How any rational person can suggest Thatcher or anyone else was to blame is beyond me.


  • #795
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You missed out baby eating and human sacrifice.


    Did he say something that wasn't true?


  • #796
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    efb wrote: »
    Russell Brand has a great article in the Guardian

    Indeed.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher


  • #797
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Nodin wrote: »
    Did he say something that wasn't true?

    No (except for the hunger strikers bit....they starved themselves). But here's some balance. Pulled a bankrupt and bailed out country, with rampant inflation, back from the brink. Had the balls to protect UKs overseas territories. Stopped the ongoing funding by public money of failed industries. Reduced the influence of the power tripping unions that had brought the UK to a 3 day week under the previous labour government (lets not pretend that the unions would have agreed to any modernisation of work practices or retraining).


  • #798
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Grandpa Hassan wrote: »
    No (except for the hunger strikers bit....they starved themselves). But here's some balance. Pulled a bankrupt and bailed out country, with rampant inflation, back from the brink. Had the balls to protect UKs overseas territories. Stopped the ongoing funding by public money of failed industries. Reduced the influence of the power tripping unions that had brought the UK to a 3 day week under the previous labour government (lets not pretend that the unions would have agreed to any modernisation of work practices or retraining).


    Thats another view of it. However I'd argue that it would be possible to fix the proverbial china vase, by means other than smashing it to pieces and then having those pieces pulverised. And you're throwing in a spanner by saying the unions wouldn't have agreed to x,y or z. For one, we don't know, and for 2, if she rammed through what she did, why couldn't she ram through something reasonable.


  • #799
    AEDIC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭AEDIC


    Nodin wrote: »
    Did he say something that wasn't true?

    hmmm its debateable.... maybe more accurate to say 'at some points may have contributed' on the Apartheid thing...

    She also lobied for the release of Mandela and some points and also supported some parts of the anti apartheid movement.

    So not untrue...but not the full picture.


  • #800
    ancapailldorcha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,448 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Just skimmed that Russell Brand piece. It's quite eloquent.
    Blaming her for the hunger strikers is absolutely ridiculous. They starved themselves. Had a quick read on wikipedia and it paints a picture of her refusing to act against the South African apartheid regime as opposed to actually supporting it. I need to do a lot more reading before forming an opinion it seems.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #801
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    Thats another view of it. However I'd argue that it would be possible to fix the proverbial china vase, by means other than smashing it to pieces and then having those pieces pulverised. And you're throwing in a spanner by saying the unions wouldn't have agreed to x,y or z. For one, we don't know, and for 2, if she rammed through what she did, why couldn't she ram through something reasonable.

    We do know though. Modernisation of the coal industry had been tried several times before and had always ended up the same way, or did you miss the three day week and power rationing?

    Originally only the 20 worst of the 187 mines were for the chop and that resulted in all mines going out on strike.

    The num weren't protecting their rights against an exploitative employer, they were protecting their gold plated jobs for life. Miners were well payed and mine jobs were considered the cereal of the crop. You only got them if your Dad worked in a mine and his before him. Think more Harland and Wolfe than eighteenth century mill worker.

    Yeah she went too far and it ended up a vendetta, but the num and in particular Arthur Scargill need to shoulder the blame as much as MT.


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  • #802
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Nodin wrote: »
    Thats another view of it. However I'd argue that it would be possible to fix the proverbial china vase, by means other than smashing it to pieces and then having those pieces pulverised. And you're throwing in a spanner by saying the unions wouldn't have agreed to x,y or z. For one, we don't know, and for 2, if she rammed through what she did, why couldn't she ram through something reasonable.

    You're right. We'll never know for sure.

    But as Fratton Fred said, the previous decade did illustrate somewhat the intransigence of the unions. I don't think they were for turning. And neither was the lady. So there was only one inevitable result really. The unions certainly weren't blameless in all of this


  • #803
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    megaten wrote: »
    Has this been posted yet?
    http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher

    Russel brand did a good piece on today on her.
    Russel Brand wrote:
    Her refusal to stand against apartheid, her civil war against the unions, her aggression towards our neighbours in Ireland and a taxation system that was devised in the dark ages, the bombing of a retreating ship – it's just not British.

    I had to laugh at that.


  • #804
    Leftist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    there's some stick going back and forth in the U.K about younger generations celebrating her death and having no idea why they don't like her.

    Tbf it's no doubt true in the same way these people are wearing che guevera t-shirts and supping a starbucks while posting instagram pics from their macbooks...

    But their parents knew only too well the legacy and that information was no doubt passed down.

    But the pointless celebration is even more ridiculous in Ireland. Where it really stems from hypocritical ignorance.

    At least those in NI are bitter because she stood up to the IRA. A terrorist organistaion that killed over 1000 people.

    But in the South? Why? half of those who identify her as some bogeywoman, probably think Haughey was a good taoiseach :D it's just so ridiculous.


  • #805
    Rob A. Bank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Rob A. Bank


    I just love Frankie Boyle's quote when it became apparent that her state funeral would cost over £3 million....

    “For 3 million you could give everyone in Scotland a shovel, and we could dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to Satan in person"

    :D


  • #806
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    Rob A. Bank wrote: »
    I just love Frankie Boyle's quote when it became apparent that her state funeral would cost over £3 million....

    “For 3 million you could give everyone in Scotland a shovel, and we could dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to Satan in person"

    :D

    He said that several years ago.


  • #807
    Rob A. Bank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Rob A. Bank


    [-0-] wrote: »
    He said that several years ago.

    I know that ... On Mock the Week

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzk6cxNRRUc


  • #808
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Grandpa Hassan wrote: »
    No (except for the hunger strikers bit....they starved themselves). But here's some balance. Pulled a bankrupt and bailed out country, with rampant inflation, back from the brink. Had the balls to protect UKs overseas territories. Stopped the ongoing funding by public money of failed industries. Reduced the influence of the power tripping unions that had brought the UK to a 3 day week under the previous labour government (lets not pretend that the unions would have agreed to any modernisation of work practices or retraining).


    Almost right, the 3 day week was under Ted Heath and the Conservatives of 1970-74. Heath called a snap election in Feb 1974 with the basis of Who rules Britain the government or the unions. He lost by a slim margin to Labour but because the Conservatives were unable to form a coalition with the Liberals and the UUP would have nothing to do with Heath after the Sunningdale agreement, Wilson was able to form a minority government. Upon his retirement and James Callaghan taking over the unions exercised their power again in the Winter of Discontent when Undertakers went on strike, rubbish accumulated in the streets and hospitals closed their doors ( among other strikes ) thus letting MT into power

    Who would have thought that the Irish Problem was going to get MT elected in 1979 after replacing Heath in 1975, who'd have thought it eh?


  • #809
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    extra gravy wrote: »
    They starved themselves. Therefore, their deaths were their own faults. How any rational person can suggest Thatcher or anyone else was to blame is beyond me.

    That's because the people blaming Thatcher aren't rational. If they were rational they probably wouldn't be supporting terrorists.


  • #810
    Madam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Madam


    Suryavarman wrote: »
    That's because the people blaming Thatcher aren't rational. If they were rational they probably wouldn't be supporting terrorists.

    But, but........... They had a cause:(


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  • #811
    Rob A. Bank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Rob A. Bank


    In the iTunes Store Top 10 Songs "Ding-Dong! the witch is dead" has shot up to number 2 on the UK chart !

    This is in response to the "Make 'Ding dong the Witch is Dead' number 1 the week Thatcher dies" Facebook campaign, which was originally set up in 2007.

    The song is from the classic 1939 film The Wizard of Oz starring Judy Garland.

    It has reached Number 7 on the Irish chart too !!!


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