Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

Weathering · 10-04-2013 05:43AM

Rascasse wrote: »

The article I linked to was also from a lefty paper. The point I was trying to show was that even a left leaning paper's poll doesn't show "overwhelming hatred".

While the Mirror may well be a simple tabloid it is also a well known for being a staunchly pro Labour paper. I'd be surprised if most of it readers (in Britain) didn't know that.

Well the article I linked certainly showed overwhelming hatred and that was my point. I'm sure you didn't even read it. Ding dong the witch is dead heading for number 1 in the Uk singles charts. Yeah she certainly is loved over in the Uk.

And your whole argument about it being a left paper is dumb,it's a tabloid for goodness sake. I'm sure all those 16,000 likes on facebook are from people who exclusively only buy left wing papers

Rascasse · 10-04-2013 06:00AM

Weathering wrote: »

Well the article I linked certainly showed overwhelming hatred and that was my point. I'm sure you didn't even read it. Ding dong the witch is dead heading for number 1 in the Uk singles charts. Yeah she certainly is loved over in the Uk.

I did read the best rated comments. Nothing surprising. I didn't bother reading the article as I've listened to Morrissey and Smiths albums god knows how many times in the last 20 years to know exactly how he felt about her ('Margaret on the Guillotine' being a case in point).

It's great that the kids are buying the Witch is Dead. The extra VAT will help pay for her send off. Though, ideologically speaking, surely something by one of the Red Wedge bands would have been a better choice. Morrissey, Billy Bragg etc. Guess they're too young to remember...

blatantrereg · 10-04-2013 06:24AM

The Khmer Rouge was one of the most shockingly brutal regimes of the last century, responsible for the deaths of 2-3 million Cambodians from a population of 8 million [according to UN and UNICEF estimates]. Led by Pol Pot, they had the bizarre ambition of a obliterating the educated and becoming a country of peasant labourers.

Thatcher set up SAS training camps for their fighters, and helped them gain and retain power, despite being aware of their actions. Here is an amusingly edited clip from a Blue Peter interview where she explained the difference between good Khmer rouge and bad Khmer rouge to Britain's children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3u_e-M9fK8

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 06:35AM

blatantrereg wrote: »

The Khmer Rouge was one of the most shockingly brutal regimes of the last century, responsible for the deaths of 2-3 million Cambodians from a population of 8 million [according to UN and UNICEF estimates]. Led by Pol Pot, they had the bizarre ambition of a obliterating the educated and becoming a country of peasant labourers.

Thatcher set up SAS training camps for their fighters, and helped them gain and retain power, despite being aware of their actions. Here is an amusingly edited clip from a Blue Peter interview where she explained the difference between good Khmer rouge and bad Khmer rouge to Britain's children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3u_e-M9fK8

A bit like Blair training the Kosovan Liberation Army (now known as Al Qaeda in Europe).
Or Hague referring to Bad Syrian terrorists and Good Syrian terrorists.
Speaking of Good Syrian terrorists, some in Ireland are active cheerleaders for them too.

getz · 10-04-2013 07:44AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

There has been a war trial? I must have missed that one.

argentina illegally invaded and occupied the british falklands, a act of war, not only was it right legally to sink the belgrano ,if the UK had been capable then, it would have been in their right to attack military targets on the argentine mainland,

Grandpa Hassan · 10-04-2013 07:50AM

Weathering wrote: »

Well the article I linked certainly showed overwhelming hatred and that was my point. I'm sure you didn't even read it. Ding dong the witch is dead heading for number 1 in the Uk singles charts. Yeah she certainly is loved over in the Uk.

And your whole argument about it being a left paper is dumb,it's a tabloid for goodness sake. I'm sure all those 16,000 likes on facebook are from people who exclusively only buy left wing papers

the polls in the papers have the shown that the overwhelming hatred is from a demograophic that were kids in 1990. They have no intuituve understanding of the situation in the UK in 1970....reading it in a book is different. So they are just seeing the riots and reading about the miners, and not putting it into the context of the time. ie. that the UK had just had a bailout, that social division already existed, that there was already a 3 day week, and that inflation was rampant. Without context, there is bound to be irrational hatred

gurramok · 10-04-2013 07:51AM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

the polls in the papers have the shown that the overwhelming hatred is from a demograophic that were kids in 1990. They have no intuituve understanding of the situation in the UK in 1970....reading it in a book is different. So they are just seeing the riots and reading about the miners, and not putting it into the context of the time. ie. that the UK had just had a bailout, that social division already existed, that there was already a 3 day week, and that inflation was rampant. Without context, there is bound to be irrational hatred

Their families probably suffered hence they will know what it was like back then.

gurramok · 10-04-2013 07:53AM

Wonder what the Thatcherite cheerleaders think of this.

Margaret Thatcher 'unabashedly racist' - Australia FM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22087702

BBC wrote:

Australia's Foreign Minister Bob Carr has described comments made by Baroness Thatcher as "unabashedly racist".

In a conversation with her "in her retirement", Mr Carr said the former UK prime minister had warned Australia against Asian immigration.

She said "if we allowed too much of it we'd see the natives of the land, the European settlers, overtaken by migrants", he said.

He went on to recall: "I remember one thing she said as part of that conversation, she said: 'You will end up like Fiji.' She said: 'I like Sydney but you can't allow the migrants' - and in context she meant Asian migration - 'to take over, otherwise you will end up like Fiji where the Indian migrants have taken over.'

Weathering · 10-04-2013 07:55AM

I linked it earlier it was ignored

Weathering · 10-04-2013 08:03AM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

the polls in the papers have the shown that the overwhelming hatred is from a demograophic that were kids in 1990. They have no intuituve understanding of the situation in the UK in 1970....reading it in a book is different. So they are just seeing the riots and reading about the miners, and not putting it into the context of the time. ie. that the UK had just had a bailout, that social division
already existed, that there was already a 3 day week, and that inflation was rampant. Without context, there is bound to be irrational hatred

Once again dismissing a piece of fact that doesn't suit your opinion. The majority of comments posted with profile picture were of people 35plus and many said they lived through her government.

Why o why is that anyone or any article that is not favourable towatds MT is dismissed and defended with excuses as to why it shouldn't be taken seriously. Why can't you just accept that many people in the Uk didn't like her and some thought she was a vile woman

Grandpa Hassan · 10-04-2013 08:04AM

gurramok wrote: »

Their families probably suffered hence they will know what it was like back then.

While they were babies or toddlers in the mid to late 1970s? They're some smart kids!

getz · 10-04-2013 08:04AM

i love the way so many people in ireland seem to think the british public hated maggie,if she was as bad as most on these post make out,why did the british vote her in three times ?.

Grandpa Hassan · 10-04-2013 08:05AM

Weathering wrote: »

Once again dismissing a piece of fact that doesn't suit your opinion. The majority of comments posted with profile picture were of people 35plus and many said they lived through her government.

Why o why is that anyone or any article that is not favourable towatds MT is dismissed and defended with excuses as to why it dhouldn't be taken seriously. Why can't you just accept that many people in the Uk didn't like her and some thought she was a vile woman

Many didn't. I don't deny that. But the assumption that it is a majority is just plain wrong

gurramok · 10-04-2013 08:15AM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

While they were babies or toddlers in the mid to late 1970s? They're some smart kids!

Comedian are we? Their parents would have passed down experiences of hardship under Thatcher to them.

Weathering · 10-04-2013 08:20AM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Many didn't. I don't deny that. But the assumption that it is a majority is just plain wrong

I said many not majority. In my previous link overwhelming hatred was solely in regard to that given article. I suppose it is debatable depending on which region in the uk one is located in regard to a majority of hatred or not.

I suppose checking in which region of the UK has highest sales of ding dong the witch is dead would be a good indicator

Nodin · 10-04-2013 08:33AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Seriously? You think our main political parties have a similar divide in ideology as witnessed in the UK with Maggies Tories and Kinnocks Labour?

Maybe i need to read up some more but you could throw a blanket over the difference in policies the main parties are offering and none of them are particularly left or right leaning.

I mean in regards to bringing a German style model.

Nodin · 10-04-2013 08:35AM

getz wrote: »

i love the way so many people in ireland seem to think the british public hated maggie,if she was as bad as most on these post make out,why did the british vote her in three times ?.

This was explained before. Evidently it bounced off.

Hobbes · 10-04-2013 08:46AM

Norwesterner wrote: »

A bit like Blair training the Kosovan Liberation Army (now known as Al Qaeda in Europe).
Or Hague referring to Bad Syrian terrorists and Good Syrian terrorists.
Speaking of Good Syrian terrorists, some in Ireland are active cheerleaders for them too.

Please don't use these kinds of arguments. They undermine what you are trying to achieve.

I mean either you are saying "Because Blair did it, Thatcher is OK" (despite Thatcher doing it first). Or maybe you are implying that the other person supports Blairs actions, you will find they probably don't.

But the main point is, don't try to defend reprehensible s't that people do by pointing to others who's actions are also reprehensible.

Fratton Fred · 10-04-2013 08:54AM

Nodin wrote: »

This was explained before. Evidently it bounced off.

It was?

Nodin · 10-04-2013 08:54AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was?

Yes. And in other threads that you were in.

Fratton Fred · 10-04-2013 08:59AM

Nodin wrote: »

Yes. And in other threads that you were in.

I must have missed it then.

She was voted in three times (thanks to factors such as Neil Kinnock and Arthur Scargill) that is a simple fact.

Nodin · 10-04-2013 09:02AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I must have missed it then..

More likely your brain refused to accept the knowledge and excreted doanwannaknowcicles to deal the problem.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

She was voted in three times (thanks to factors such as Neil Kinnock and Arthur Scargill) that is a simple fact.

And what percentage of the vote did she get at her most popular Fred?

Lingua Franca · 10-04-2013 09:03AM

true wrote: »

Nobody wanted Liverpool starved. Where did you get such hatred for the Tory pary? It was in the interests of the Tory part that Liverpool would prosper and be part of a strong UK. The people of Sunderland and Derby got Nissan and Toyota and their spin off industries.

Bzzz! That's a wrong answer I'm afraid.

Thatcher urged 'let Liverpool decline' after 1981 riots

They didn't do it in the end but that's hardly something worth lauding.

Rascasse wrote: »

I really don't see what the problem is with this. People got on to the housing ladder, were given the opportunity to move up in life rather than be life long council tenants forever living on miserable postwar estates. Many of those now rented by private landlords will be rented by people claiming housing benefit

There is currently an enormous problem with housing benefit, specifically the number of people claiming it since so many more are out of work and losing their homes due to the recession, and the newly implemented caps in the UK, particularly in London where 13% of private landlords are over charging for rents knowing that either housing benefit will pay it, or they can simply evict HB tenants. Some did, after all, evict tenants so that they could command higher rents during the olympics. It's become so unsustainable that the Tories have decided to do something about it - by capping HB in the hope that landlords will bring the rents down to affordable levels. Of course, private landlords will not reduce rents. The end result being that more and more people are being made homeless every day and private landlords are refusing to rent their properties, ex council or no, to housing benefit claimants. Which is a great way of getting the poor out of the capital. Although now they're trying to get them out of the country altogether.

You may not see what the problem is but your opinion is of absolutely no consequence because the British government, the planning minister, local councils, homelessness charities and tenants do acknowledge that there is an enormous problem. Even the private landlords are aware of it, although obviously they don't give a toss.

This depends on where you are in the country, and what you'd call affordable.

Whereabouts in the UK is there plenty of affordable, decent social housing? And 35% of income as rent is what's considered affordable.

It is much more a case that planning laws, particularly in the south east and London, make it incredibly difficult and costly to get anything built.

[citation needed]

It's more of a case of council stock being sold off and not replaced. Those in the know do not agree with you.

Right to Buy was a great scheme. Sure councils were told to use the money to write down their huge debts and perhaps more money should have been provided to build more, but don't let overshadow the opportunity it gave those people in the 80's and early 90's.

Right to buy was a great scheme only for those who had the opportunity to buy their own homes. But it's a fact that it's caused immense knock on problems for successive UK governments because it was ill thought out and with no consideration given for the growing population. They simply cannot keep up with the amount of new housing required.

Tens of thousands homeless. Hundreds of thousands in cramped or unfit conditions. Poor people being encouraged to move out of London to god-knows-where. Carpetbagging landlords ripping off the housing benefit scheme with their ex council properties. Everyone in the UK from the government down acknowledging that there is a crisis due to housing shortage. But! Mr and Mrs J Bloggs got to make a profit by removing their home from social housing stock and selling it on to a private landlord so he could rip off the housing benefit scheme, so woo and yay I suppose. I'm alright Jack, I'm ok.

Fratton Fred · 10-04-2013 09:18AM

Nodin wrote: »

More likely your brain refused to accept the knowledge and excreted doanwannaknowcicles to deal the problem.

And what percentage of the vote did she get at her most popular Fred?

Around 42% I believe, but so what, no one would ever claim she was hugely popular. She was, however, more popular than the alternatives.

padd b1975 · 10-04-2013 09:21AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I must have missed it then.

She was voted in three times (thanks to factors such as Neil Kinnock and Arthur Scargill) that is a simple fact.

Just for old times sake...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8ktNsie0I

who the fug · 10-04-2013 09:30AM

blatantrereg wrote: »

The Khmer Rouge was one of the most shockingly brutal regimes of the last century, responsible for the deaths of 2-3 million Cambodians from a population of 8 million [according to UN and UNICEF estimates]. Led by Pol Pot, they had the bizarre ambition of a obliterating the educated and becoming a country of peasant labourers.

Thatcher set up SAS training camps for their fighters, and helped them gain and retain power, despite being aware of their actions. Here is an amusingly edited clip from a Blue Peter interview where she explained the difference between good Khmer rouge and bad Khmer rouge to Britain's children.

She was helping out Jimmy Carter as I recall , never could understand that call

Rippy · 10-04-2013 09:31AM

On Minday I was at a funeral in Corby , Northamptonshire .
A steel town devastated by what she did to the steel industry .
My uncle ( a former steel worker who never got much in the way of decent work after the closure of the plant) would have been delighted she died on the day he was buried . When news filtered through it certainly lifted the mood .

Ironically , he died of a stroke too .

who the fug · 10-04-2013 09:35AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I must have missed it then.

She was voted in three times (thanks to factors such as Neil Kinnock and Arthur Scargill) that is a simple fact.

Interesting seeing an interview with Neil Kinnock and he laid the blame squarely on the shoulders of Arthur Scargill for the whole mining fiasco.

One other interesting Kinnock comment on Maggie, was everyone forgets she was a street fighter

TwoShedsJackson · 10-04-2013 09:55AM

getz wrote: »

i love the way so many people in ireland seem to think the british public hated maggie,if she was as bad as most on these post make out,why did the british vote her in three times ?.

I love the way people think that because someone is democratically elected three times that means she had the support of the majority of the public. She didn't. If about 60% vote, and she got about 42% of the vote at best, as mentioned elsewhere on this page, she had the support of around 25% of the voting-age population.

Spook_ie · 10-04-2013 10:00AM

Big thank you , in no particular order to the following people (s) who made Maggie the lesser of two evils to elect.

The Miners, people weren't happy at being held to ransom anymore or willing to face a 3 day week again, and the powers that be had built up stocks of coal

The Argentinians, without whom Maggie would never have gotten a 2nd term, the UK being faced with high unemployment and high inflation

The Labour Party, Having a Looney Left like Foot and Benn made them unelectable to many in the UK

The Russians and the threat of invasion from the East, further fostered by the ultra right unions

Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

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