Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

Hilly Bill · 09-04-2013 09:02PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I'm well aware of that,the point is just because someone makes a tough decision doesn't make it right or the person a hero for doing so.

Still cant compare her to the likes of Hitler.

.jacksparrow. · 09-04-2013 09:13PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Still cant compare her to the likes of Hitler.

That was something like 30 pages back,nice bump!

Hilly Bill · 09-04-2013 09:16PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

That was something like 30 pages back,nice bump!

Sorry, i didnt know that i was on a time schedule to reply.

.jacksparrow. · 09-04-2013 09:17PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Sorry, i didnt know that i was on a time schedule to reply.

Don't take it to heart I wasn't giving out!

Hilly Bill · 09-04-2013 09:24PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Don't take it to heart I wasn't giving out!

Trust me , i didnt

trashcan · 09-04-2013 09:42PM

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

Margaret Thatcher succeeded in leaving behind an enduring legacy beyond most peace time leaders. What have you done with your life?

Thatcher>You.

Um, I'm guessing here, but probably not as much damage as Mrs "Iron Lady"

TheUsual · 09-04-2013 09:50PM

Fair play to CNN they are not buying the media rhetoric of "Thatcher the Saint".
Had some interviews with some normal people hit hard by her legacy.

Bit of honesty - at least the yanks are getting some journalism on their TV.

Happyman42 · 09-04-2013 10:08PM

TheUsual wrote: »

Fair play to CNN they are not buying the media rhetoric of "Thatcher the Saint".
Had some interviews with some normal people hit hard by her legacy.

Bit of honesty - at least the yanks are getting some journalism on their TV.

Our own 'national' broadcaster almost reluctantly interviewed those directly affected in Ireland by her rule.

end of the road · 09-04-2013 10:13PM

trashcan wrote: »

Um, I'm guessing here, but probably not as much damage as Mrs "Iron Lady"

not one bit of damage to anyone at all from me, can't say the same about old boot iron lady

true · 09-04-2013 10:56PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Thatcher didn't create capitalism or the free market. She applied it to the UK. She left power in 1990 and the whole financial collapse started 17 years later. Successive governements in the UK and across many countries had 2 decades to regulate the financial services sector globally. They failed.

Go ahead though blame the "witch" for everything.

+1. As someone else said, Mrs T had the foresight to see that a single common currency in Europe would be a disaster. If only we had someone like her in power - a person of conviction who had the backbone to stand up to the unions and government inefficiency / waste- we would not be in as big a mess as we're in.

paddy147 · 09-04-2013 10:58PM

10 million quid sterling for security for the auld bags funeral.

Thats alot of dosh to waste for a few hours.

K-9 · 09-04-2013 11:03PM

Rascasse wrote: »

This must be some republican old wives tale. The conferences tend to move around the country between north and south each year so it would have been at least 2 years since she last stayed there, maybe more, so it's not like she had her 'usual room' each year. More likely he asked for high level sea front room (as those are the best in the house, hence likely where she'd stay) and thought he'd used enough to bring the whole place down.

Just on that, you are correct that it did and indeed still does move around each year.

It's a while since I read Tim Pat Coogan, but your correction makes me think the bomb was based on the previous conference at the Grand. He outlined the planning, and how it was planted in a lot of detail, so I doubt it was a Republican old wives tale, I'd be the first to take somebody up on that!

The bomb was definitely put in close proximity to where it was expected she'd stay and was put there a few days previously, and evaded security checks. My recollection is that she was moved to a higher level because of protests about the Miners strike outside. The irony of it made it stand out for me, the Miners could well have saved her life!

PS. Don't get me wrong, if they'd succeeded there's a good chance we wouldn't have a peace process now or it would have delayed it even longer.

end of the road · 09-04-2013 11:08PM

true wrote: »

If only we had someone like her in power - a person of conviction who had the backbone to stand up to the unions and government inefficiency / waste- we would not be in as big a mess as we're in.

you really need to get over your bitterness and hatred against the unions, its not as if the unions these days call for strike action at a whim, strikes are very rare, we would still be in a mess whoever we have, the only conviction she had was to destroy anyone who got in the way of her and her big business/rich friends, for somebody who had such back bone she ended up a failure and irrelevant, but don't let your hatred of the guardians of workers rights get in the way of your beliefs, thankfully she failed to turn britain in to the sweat shop she dreamed of.

true · 09-04-2013 11:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

you really need to get over your bitterness and hatred against the unions, its not as if the unions these days call for strike action at a whim, strikes are very rare, we would still be in a mess whoever we have, the only conviction she had was to destroy anyone who got in the way of her and her big business/rich friends, for somebody who had such back bone she ended up a failure and irrelevant, but don't let your hatred of the guardians of workers rights get in the way of your beliefs, thankfully she failed to turn britain in to the sweat shop she dreamed of.

all economic indicators show that the UK was a lot better off when she left after three terms of power than when she took over.

megaten · 09-04-2013 11:15PM

Has this been posted yet?
http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher

Russel brand did a good piece on today on her.

Busted Flat. · 09-04-2013 11:18PM

Anyone seen this ?.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/margaret-thatcher-death-obit

true · 09-04-2013 11:30PM

Interesting to see who is going to the funeral. FW de Klerk, the last president of apartheid South Africa, who was embraced by Thatcher as a reformer, became the first former head of state to confirm his attendance. De Klerk, who ordered the release of Nelson Mandela from prison and then agreed to the negotiations that ended apartheid, will attend with his wife, Elita.

K-9 · 09-04-2013 11:30PM

end of the road wrote: »

you really need to get over your bitterness and hatred against the unions, its not as if the unions these days call for strike action at a whim, strikes are very rare, we would still be in a mess whoever we have, the only conviction she had was to destroy anyone who got in the way of her and her big business/rich friends, for somebody who had such back bone she ended up a failure and irrelevant, but don't let your hatred of the guardians of workers rights get in the way of your beliefs, thankfully she failed to turn britain in to the sweat shop she dreamed of.

That's the obsession I don't get, it was all about beating the Unions, yes, the Unions had crazy power in the 70's, but really, what did her anti-Union policy actually achieve? British industry died a death under Thatcher so while she might have solved one part of the problem, she didn't solve the competitiveness problem. Her willingness to agree to everything big business wanted was just as bad as Unions having way too much power.

Busted Flat. · 09-04-2013 11:39PM

true wrote: »

Interesting to see who is going to the funeral. FW de Klerk, the last president of apartheid South Africa, who was embraced by Thatcher as a reformer, became the first former head of state to confirm his attendance. De Klerk, who ordered the release of Nelson Mandela from prison and then agreed to the negotiations that ended apartheid, will attend with his wife, Elita.

Pol Pot will not be able to attend,will any of his family send their condolences.
Pinochet is in the same position, will his family make any sort of an effort.
Jimmy Saville, well.

Fratton Fred · 09-04-2013 11:42PM

K-9 wrote: »

That's the obsession I don't get, it was all about beating the Unions, yes, the Unions had crazy power in the 70's, but really, what did her anti-Union policy actually achieve? British industry died a death under Thatcher so while she might have solved one part of the problem, she didn't solve the competitiveness problem. Her willingness to agree to everything big business wanted was just as bad as Unions having way too much power.

Equal and opposite reactions to an extent.

Some of my earliest memories were getting the candles out for when the power got turned off each night. My Dad was a shop steward at the Wyeth plant in Havant, but when he watched the conservative election broadcast with athletes symbolizing British industry, something clicked and he voted conservative for the first time in his life.

true · 09-04-2013 11:44PM

K-9 wrote: »

That's the obsession I don't get, it was all about beating the Unions, yes, the Unions had crazy power in the 70's, but really, what did her anti-Union policy actually achieve?

When she took over in the late 70's , the UK had the IMF in, numerous strikes, tax up to 83%, no hope, everyone of talent leaving.
In the eighties more Irish people than the entire population of Cork went to England and got well paying jobs, and she reduced tax to 40%. Along with Germany it was the biggest contributer to EC funds, from which we beneffited greatly too. Yes, inefficient businesses closed when it could not compete with low cost imports - but that happened everywhere in the west. Look at your own Donegal / Derry area. Remember all the shirt factories in the seventies? Where are they now? Manufacturing has tended to go from Western countries to the east. Or to tax-haven countries with low regulation and only 10% corporation tax, where multinationals can launder their profits.

Norwesterner · 09-04-2013 11:50PM

I think it will be a huge funeral.
The celebrating and dancing by the left will backlash big time, and the public mood will shift in the coming days.
I'd no time for Thatcher as an Irish Republican, but I'd stop short of celebrating or dancing in the street (personal upbringing I suppose)
I found the photos of young students celebrating in England bewildering and a bit forced/phoney to be honest.
I think they will regret doing so as they get older.
As a fan of Galloway, I think he gave his opponents a stick to beat him with, and he should have just said nothing.

She was senile for years and no longer the same Mrs T.
The Old Mrs T. "died" years ago.

Anyway, as I say the funeral will be a shock. There'll be tens of thousands.

wonderfullife · 09-04-2013 11:50PM

K-9 wrote: »

That's the obsession I don't get, it was all about beating the Unions, yes, the Unions had crazy power in the 70's, but really, what did her anti-Union policy actually achieve? British industry died a death under Thatcher so while she might have solved one part of the problem, she didn't solve the competitiveness problem. Her willingness to agree to everything big business wanted was just as bad as Unions having way too much power.

are you serious?

When she took over in 1979, the unions had the power to actually bring the country to a standstill - and regularly did. In 1979 alone, 29,700,000 working days were lost as a result of strike action. I'm not sure how they calculated that figure (presumably number of people times number of days on strike) but that's a crippling blow to any country.

Taking on the trade unions achieved, above else, a functioning country. Trains to run, bin bags to be taken, bodies to be buried, power stations to be operated. I know you're very pro-liverpool but to me it's a source of shame to that city that gravediggers went on strike in Liverpool in 1979. Absolutely disgusting that they refused to bury the dead.

How were you supposed to attract inward investment to a country with a reputation of going on strike every 2 mins? Or Unions organising violent protests? Hardly a selling point to attract investment from abroad, necessary for most countries.

Dealing with the insanely disproportionate power of the trade unions was absolutely critical to any possibility the UK had of getting out of the terrible situation it was in during the 1970s.

Taking them on achieved so much that the UK has to be thankful for.

Thatcher failed on many levels but that's not one of them.

K-9 · 09-04-2013 11:58PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Equal and opposite reactions to an extent.

Some of my earliest memories were getting the candles out for when the power got turned off each night. My Dad was a shop steward at the Wyeth plant in Havant, but when he watched the conservative election broadcast with athletes symbolizing British industry, something clicked and he voted conservative for the first time in his life.

I already addressed that.

true wrote: »

When she took over in the late 70's , the UK had the IMF in, numerous strikes, tax up to 83%, no hope, everyone of talent leaving.
In the eighties more Irish people than the entire population of Cork went to England and got well paying jobs, and she reduced tax to 40%. Along with Germany it was the biggest contributer to EC funds, from which we beneffited greatly too. Yes, inefficient businesses closed when it could not compete with low cost imports - but that happened everywhere in the west. Look at your own Donegal / Derry area. Remember all the shirt factories in the seventies? Where are they now? Manufacturing has tended to go from Western countries to the east. Or to tax-haven countries with low regulation and only 10% corporation tax, where multinationals can launder their profits.

wonderfullife wrote: »

are you serious?

When she took over in 1979, the unions had the power to actually bring the country to a standstill - and regularly did. In 1979 alone, 29,700,000 working days were lost as a result of strike action. I'm not sure how they calculated that figure (presumably number of people times number of days on strike) but that's a crippling blow to any country.

Taking on the trade unions achieved, above else, a functioning country. Trains to run, bin bags to be taken, bodies to be buried, power stations to be operated. I know you're very pro-liverpool but to me it's a source of shame to that city that gravediggers went on strike in Liverpool in 1979. Absolutely disgusting that they refused to bury the dead.

How were you supposed to attract inward investment to a country with a reputation of going on strike every 2 mins? Or Unions organising violent protests? Hardly a selling point to attract investment from abroad, necessary for most countries.

Dealing with the insanely disproportionate power of the trade unions was absolutely critical to any possibility the UK had of getting out of the terrible situation it was in during the 1970s.

Taking them on achieved so much that the UK has to be thankful for.

Thatcher failed on many levels but that's not one of them.

All addressed.

What is her legacy really though. She defeated the Unions and replaced it with what? Consumerism, property make over programmes and the Saachis loved her. Doesn't say much for all the adoration.

Norwesterner · 10-04-2013 12:02AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

are you serious?

When she took over in 1979, the unions had the power to actually bring the country to a standstill - and regularly did. In 1979 alone, 29,700,000 working days were lost as a result of strike action. I'm not sure how they calculated that figure (presumably number of people times number of days on strike) but that's a crippling blow to any country.

Taking on the trade unions achieved, above else, a functioning country. Trains to run, bin bags to be taken, bodies to be buried, power stations to be operated. I know you're very pro-liverpool but to me it's a source of shame to that city that gravediggers went on strike in Liverpool in 1979. Absolutely disgusting that they refused to bury the dead.

How were you supposed to attract inward investment to a country with a reputation of going on strike every 2 mins? Or Unions organising violent protests? Hardly a selling point to attract investment from abroad, necessary for most countries.

Dealing with the insanely disproportionate power of the trade unions was absolutely critical to any possibility the UK had of getting out of the terrible situation it was in during the 1970s.

Taking them on achieved so much that the UK has to be thankful for.

Thatcher failed on many levels but that's not one of them.

Even Labour changed their policies on Unions after seeing how popular Thatcher's policies had become.
Hence their facedown with Derek Hatton and the militants at the Labour party Conference and their distancing from the likes of Scargill and Co.
Where do people think the term New Labour come from.

Incidentally, under Labour these was MORE closing of industries (motor, shipbuilding etc ) in Britain than under Thatcher...and MORE warmongering (Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan) than under Thatcher (Falklands scrap)

Shall we publicly celebrate the death of Blair??

wonderfullife · 10-04-2013 12:07AM

K-9 wrote: »

I already addressed that.

All addressed.

What is her legacy really though. She defeated the Unions and replaced it with what? Consumerism, property make over programmes and the Saachis loved her. Doesn't say much for all the adoration.

I'd prefer to live in a functional, consumerist society where you can get a train or have your rubbish collected or your dead relatives buried than a non-consumerist society where all of the above happen at the whim of a Trade Union.

This notion that consumerism is a great evil is a nonsense as well. We all want to work, get paid and be able to enjoy our money. I'm sure we all as teenagers got part-time jobs and went straight out and bought CD's, games, etc. There's nothing intrinsically "wrong" with that.

The idea that this was encouraged and promoted and solely down to one womans ideas in the UK is a nonsense. We just never had the money in Ireland or the UK in times gone by to be a consumerist society. Pre-war and post-war times were so tight. So, yeah i reckon i'd take the society we have now over a dysfunctional mess she took over in 1979.

Happyman42 · 10-04-2013 12:12AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

So, yeah i reckon i'd take the society we have now over a dysfunctional mess she took over in 1979.

And society improved all over the west through those years, including here in Ireland (remember strikes here too?) without the absolute and unforgivable social divisiveness she caused. There are ways to achieve things, hers where obviously and tragically the wrong ways, if you open your eyes and look around you.

K-9 · 10-04-2013 12:12AM

Norwesterner wrote: »

Even Labour changed their policies on Unions after seeing how popular Thatcher's policies had become.
Hence their facedown with Derek Hatton and the militants at the Labour party Conference and their distancing from the likes of Scargill and Co.
Where do people think the term New Labour come from.

Incidentally, under Labour these was MORE closing of industries (motor, shipbuilding etc ) in Britain than under Thatcher...and MORE warmongering (Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan) than under Thatcher (Falklands scrap)

Shall we publicly celebrate the death of Blair??

Blair will have his haters as well. I'd say Blair tried to bring society back to Thatcher's "there is no society" line. Working Families tax credits, stuff like that. While Blair didn't increase tax rates as far as I know, he did bring in stealth taxes. I worked in N.I. and I remember my boss castigating Labour and championing McCreevy cutting taxes everywhere here.

With hindsight, New Labour got it more right than FF/PD's did.

Randall Floyd · 10-04-2013 12:13AM

I thought Kevin Myes was obnoxious today on newstalk when he was talking about her and her sexual magnetism.

K-9 · 10-04-2013 12:15AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

I'd prefer to live in a functional, consumerist society where you can get a train or have your rubbish collected or your dead relatives buried than a non-consumerist society where all of the above happen at the whim of a Trade Union.

This notion that consumerism is a great evil is a nonsense as well. We all want to work, get paid and be able to enjoy our money. I'm sure we all as teenagers got part-time jobs and went straight out and bought CD's, games, etc. There's nothing intrinsically "wrong" with that.

The idea that this was encouraged and promoted and solely down to one womans ideas in the UK is a nonsense. We just never had the money in Ireland or the UK in times gone by to be a consumerist society. Pre-war and post-war times were so tight. So, yeah i reckon i'd take the society we have now over a dysfunctional mess she took over in 1979.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.

We've just gone from Unions being far too powerful to big business far too powerful.

Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

Comments