Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

Icyseanfitz · 08-04-2013 06:25PM

1ZRed wrote: »

The one thing I'll say is that people my age are commenting on this saying "thank fuk the old bitch is dead", yet never lived through her reign, and many dont know anything about her but are just piggy backing off of what other people are saying. It's so stupid.

I'll admit I know feck all about her, bar some things, but you won't see me saying anything for or against about her either.

id be in the same boat tbh, cant stand people my age spouting ****e just for the sake of it

gurramok · 08-04-2013 06:25PM

trickymicky wrote: »

what i cant understand is if she was so hated by the british people, how did she get three terms in office and basically ran britain for 21 years.

now im no fan of thatcher and wont lose any sleep with her being dead, but can anyone answer this for me because i wouldnt be too educated in her policies but there must of been something that kept her in power for that long.

Her election victories. By the way, this was under First Past the Post system.

1979 - Previous "Winter Of Discontent" strike decimated Britain, people looked to an alternative, she came at the right time
1983 - Falklands War (Wars get votes, it came unexpectedly at the right time)
1987- Infighting within Labour, no alternative to vote for, Lib Dems were not strong either.

Then Poll Tax.

Galwayguy35 · 08-04-2013 06:33PM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

so tell me this, what whould giving a **** about this person do now? do you even know what age i am? no is the answer, im not a selfish person i just couldnt give a crap about politics of any kind,

this woman never did anything to me or anyone i know, neither did the black and tans but i suppose i should hate them all as im irish sure :rolleyes:

you and your like sir are what is wrong with the world

Well yeah you should hate the Black and Tans.

WhatNowForUs? · 08-04-2013 06:34PM

seamus wrote: »

That only appears to be in some primarily working class areas where her "no compromises" economic policies caused serious employment issues.

She was elected 3 times, so she can't have been that hated. She really was more of a wartime leader, very conservative, so as the peaceful nineties wee approaching and people were becoming far more liberal, her policies would have become increasingly unpopular.

A leader is only as popular as their last act, so there was probably some additional bitter sentiment there from her final years in power as she was seen as impeding progress.

Poll Tax helped.

Fratton Fred · 08-04-2013 06:34PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

And what did she do to help those areas get back on their feet?

Put in place development plans with massive incentives for investing in those regions, why do you think Nissan are in Sunderland or Toyota in Derby? Wales was, for a time, the second largest producers of tvs all thanks to regeneration initiatives she helped put in place.

Cian92 · 08-04-2013 06:38PM

I wouldn't have been a big fan of her policies, and would consider her regin to have had a negative effect on the UK and Ireland.

I had to laugh when I saw this on my fb newsfeed earlier :cool:

K-9 · 08-04-2013 06:39PM

trickymicky wrote: »

what i cant understand is if she was so hated by the british people, how did she get three terms in office and basically ran britain for 21 years.

now im no fan of thatcher and wont lose any sleep with her being dead, but can anyone answer this for me because i wouldnt be too educated in her policies but there must of been something that kept her in power for that long.

If you read up about the winter of discontent or about unions, strikes and the British car industry in the late 70's, you'll get an idea of why she was elected and why she was popular. Read up about the Falklands and how it got her re-elected. After that Kinnock and a divided Labour party helped her get re-elected but the Tories took nearly 20 years to get over her policies and the perception of her. Indeed, I'd go as far as saying it was a factor in Cameron not getting an overall majority, you can't when Scotland, Wales and nearly all of Northern England still see Tories as unelectable.

mike65 wrote: »

She wasn't hated by the British she was hated by some in Britain. As I mentioned in a previous post. If you were a working class person with ambition and drive (a barrow boy) or wanted to own your own home you voted Tory in 1979 and at least once, probably twice thereafter. If you were a coal/steel worker you might have voted the first time so angry were people with Labour in 79 but not thereafter.

Ironically a miners protest outside the hotel in Brighton probably saved her life. She was moved to a higher floor due to security concerns and not IRA ones!

Morag · 08-04-2013 06:39PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28

Margaret Thatcher at the 1987 Conservative party conference, issued the statement stating "Children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay".

May 1985 , the first official guidance to doctors and surgeons dealing with AIDS was issued.

The Health Minister, Kenneth Clarke, enacted powers to detain people with AIDS in hospital against their will, despite the recommendations of leading medical experts who felt that this measure might deter some people from coming forward for treatment.

LordSutch · 08-04-2013 06:41PM

1979 the Winter of discontent, Britain was on its knees > then Mrs Thatch arrives.

Loved and loathed in equal amounts across Ireland and Britain. Arch enemy of the IRA, Colonel Gadaffi, the Argintine Junta, and of course the miners and their unions with Arthur (three shredded wheat) Scargill as their beligerant mouthpiece!

Mrs Thatch palyed hard ball and won every time. At the same time she gave so many people in Britain the chance to buy the council houses, she threw out the old industries and brought in the new, she transformed Britain from the winter if discontent (James Callaghan) to 'Loads a money' and Privitisation whilst also putting many people out of work from the old industries . . . . . .

From one extreme to the other, loved and loathed.

Personally I thought it good that she played hard ball with the Provo's, because that's all they understaood, (they killed her friend Airey Neave, Lord Mountbatten, and they nearly killed her in Brighton), so I can totally understand her hard ball attitude to the IRA, same goes for General Leopoldo Galtieri and the rest of the Argentine Junta, although I still have reservations about the sinking of the Belgrano.

Thought Adams was a bit quick with his comments today, (but then he was her arch enemy), and I guess Scargill will be toasting
her departure too with a glass of bubbly (along with many ex miners and their families) in the North of England.

Many in the City of London & middle England will of course mourn her passing, but I think everybody who remembers her reign as British PM
will have an opinion on one of the most powerful & visionary leaders of recent World history.

Suryavarman · 08-04-2013 06:41PM

gurramok wrote: »

At home in the UK she was the modern day example of an extreme elite capitalist who invented yuppieism. F*** the poor was her attitude, she introduced poll tax where you paid the same no matter what your income was, all humans were targeted whereby millionaires paid the same as poor people. This justifiably brought her down.

She was such an extreme capitalist in fact that government spending made up 39.4% of GDP in 1990-1991. Compared to 34.5% 10 years later under a Labour government.

I don't even think Karl Marx would call that extreme capitalism.

Frankie Lee · 08-04-2013 06:45PM

Something still doesn't sit right with her friendship to notorious paedophiles Jimmy Savile and Peter Morrison being her most serious aide, what attracted her to these paedophiles? There are at least two other members of her inner circle who allegations have been made against but they are still alive so nothing can be said.

crazygeryy · 08-04-2013 06:45PM

stevenmu wrote: »

When the Irish Ambassador invited her to the embassy for a symbolic glass of Guinness, she mentioned that she much preferred a nice glass of port.

That bitch!

yea you can call her a bitch but you cant piss on her grave.is there a difference?

JupiterKid · 08-04-2013 06:47PM

I'm not shedding any tears at this news.

Thatcher divided the UK economically and geographically - decimating the North, Wales and Scotland and boosting London and the South East as never before. The rich grew richer and the poor got poorer under her policies.

[-0-] · 08-04-2013 06:50PM

I was happy about Bin Laden, Saddam, and now herself.

I really cannot sum it up better than Adams did. Genius.

“Margaret Thatcher did great hurt to the Irish and British people during her time as British Prime Minister,” Adams said. "Working class communities were devastated in Britain because of her policies.

"Her role in international affairs was equally belligerent whether in support of the Chilean dictator Pinochet, her opposition to sanctions against apartheid South Africa; and her support for the Khmer Rouge. Here in Ireland her espousal of old draconian militaristic policies prolonged the war and caused great suffering.

"She embraced censorship, collusion and the killing of citizens by covert operations, including the targeting of solicitors like Pat Finucane, alongside more open military operations and refused to recognise the rights of citizens to vote for parties of their choice.

"Her failed efforts to criminalise the republican struggle and the political prisoners is part of her legacy. It should be noted that in complete contradiction of her public posturing, she authorised a back channel of communications with the Sinn Féin leadership but failed to act on the logic of this. Unfortunately she was faced with weak Irish governments who failed to oppose her securocrat agenda or to enlist international support in defence of citizens in the north.

"Margaret Thatcher will be especially remembered for her shameful role during the epic hunger strikes of 1980 and 81. Her Irish policy failed miserably."

P_1 · 08-04-2013 06:50PM

Like any politician who gets into power there are always going to be people who disagree with some of their policies.

With Thatcher I think the three headline policies that caused discontent were:

1 - The miners, yes the mines were beyond economic salvation but simply closing them without providing some sort of 'safety net' was a major blunder.

2 - The North, too confrontational IMO but both sides were equally guilty of that

3 - Poll tax, major blunder by not differentiating it based on income.

wonderfullife · 08-04-2013 06:52PM

Morag wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28

Margaret Thatcher at the 1987 Conservative party conference, issued the statement stating "Children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay".

May 1985 , the first official guidance to doctors and surgeons dealing with AIDS was issued.

The Health Minister, Kenneth Clarke, enacted powers to detain people with AIDS in hospital against their will, despite the recommendations of leading medical experts who felt that this measure might deter some people from coming forward for treatment.

So you are comparing a fledgling, reactive measure of confining AIDS patients in hospital-isolation to that of a concentration camp?

Sweet Jesus. This was a scary, new disease and fears of a global pandemic were rife. Not much was known about it other than it was deadly.

Throughout the rest of her tenure as PM, she oversaw a massive educational drive promoting safe sex to combat the spread of the disease, she did as much (if not more) than any worldwide leader of the time in combatting the spread of the disease.

As for the rest of it, i don't think it's a good idea to promote either heterosexuality or homosexuality to children. Let them be children, they'll figure out their sexuality for themselves. To suggest she was homophobic based on your quote is ridiculous, and as i said she appointed an openly gay MP to cabinet.

She was a conservative traditionalist, marriage = man & woman. You find millions if not billions with similar views worldwide. That's vastly different from wanting homosexuality outlawed, at no point did she suggest that it should be a crime to be gay.

Richard Hillman · 08-04-2013 06:53PM

The extreme left have always wanted their classless society and they have it today with some of the things said about Lady Thatcher.

In a week where we learned the true dealings of the Mick Philpott, Thatcher was the one that wanted people to rise above being a member of the welfare state and leeching off the system, the underclasses. She wanted to crush the Philpotts of this world into joining society. Comply or die.

She wanted to improve society, she wanted to push people into improving themselves, upskilling and upskilling the nation, to improve the nation.

She ended the senseless cries to keep the coal mining industry alive. They wanted to extract every ounce of coal out of those mines until there was none left, and then what? Who will the miners blame then? They were sucking resources out of the land and out of the public exchequer. It needed to end at sometime and Thatcher was the only one who had the courage to stand up to them and to smash the unions holding the country to ransom.

She stood up to terrorists. She would not give in to their emotional black mail. Remember these people were in prison for a reason. What if she did give into the suicide strikers? They would want MORE, MORE, MORE! Black mailing Thatchers country into submission. She never surrendered, she didnt even blink.

She said NO, NO, NO to Europe. She Said NO, NO, NO to the European currency and look how that ended up. Look how Europe has ended up? and look who will be leaving Europe soon enough? The UK and by referendum, the will of the people.

She aligned herself with ropey world wide characters. Why? Because it was in the best interests of the British nation. It didnt matter if it was morally right or not, A British life was worth 1 million of theirs under Thatcher. We would like to think our governments would do the same.

She may have passed but her legacy will live forever and no little gatherings will ever change that. No hipsters copying and pasting things on social network sites will ever change that. She lived, she changed the world, she was right, SHE WON! and will her legacy die? NO NO NO

PS I disagree with her over Gay rights etc

tayto lover · 08-04-2013 06:53PM

I think Maggie really hated the Irish.
There seemed to be venom in her voice whenever she discussed anything to do with Ireland and the Troubles even before the Brighton bombing.
She was also hated in the north of England too as she made so many people unemployed in the steel and mining industries.

Not too many will shed a tear for Maggie.

coolhull · 08-04-2013 06:56PM

Morag wrote: »

Let me see, she wanted homosexuality outlawed, the mentioning of homosexuality in any forum outlawed, she wanted to put all the AIDS/HIV patients in a concentration camp.

Poll Tax, ie household tax and if you didn't play it you lost your right to vote.
Privatisation of everything, rail roads, untility companies ect.[/quote
..........

And you can quote a source to verify the claims regarding her intentions to put AIDS/ HIV sufferers in concentration camps?
And efforts to withdraw the franchise from non- taxpayers?
Oh, and attempts to criminalize homosexuality?
This would make fascinating reading, (assuming, of course that the source exists)

Seachmall · 08-04-2013 06:57PM

This pretty much sums up Boards' reaction to Thatcher's death (and the rest of the internet's apparently),

The online reaction to Margaret Thatcher's death came in a series of perfect waves. First came the wave where people celebrated her passing. Then came the wave where people asked the first group of people to be nice. Then the wave where the first group of people took issue with the superior tone of the second group of people. Then the second group reacted angrily. Then the first group counter-reacted even more angrily. Finally came the wave where all of the internet became genuinely unbearable and you just wanted to go outside and regain some perspective.

- The Guardian

The article is worth a read too.

wonderfullife · 08-04-2013 06:57PM

The whole Pinochet thing is overplayed too. She had tea with him on a couple of occasions and Pinochet lent them intelligence and radar assistance in the Falklands War.

Compare that to the USA. The CIA were actively involved in supporting the military coup, they provided massive support to Pinochet and his cronies from 1971 right through to the early 1980s. Britain did next-to-nothing in either getting him to power or supporting him in power, nowhere near the extent of the USA.

Both Britain and America supported and turned blind-eyes to some horrendous regimes during the 1970s and 1980s, under many Prime Ministers and Presidents. It doesn't make it alright but it's certainly not a huge stick to beat her with either.

squod · 08-04-2013 06:58PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

She stood up to terrorists. ........

If I have to hear this one more time. FFS she was the terrorist!!!!!!!!!

Under her direction, collusion between British state forces and unionist death squads increased. In 1982 the Force Research Unit (FRU) was established. FRU ran British agents inside the various loyalist paramilitary groups and provided information on nationalists and republicans to be murdered.

FRU and British intelligence also facilitated the importation of weapons for the UDA, UVF and Ulster Resistance via the apartheid regime in South Africa in early 1988.

In the three years prior to receiving these weapons, loyalists killed 34 people; in the three years after the shipment, they killed 224

These professional terrorists are still on the payroll BTW.

DyldeBrill · 08-04-2013 07:01PM

meh...she's dead

Her death was coming but the same hatred will forever live from before and after her death

Wasn't a particular nice person, but not a chance in hell would I be celebrating someone's death like I've seen many people do online.It's one of the most insensitive, anti-humanist, non-liberal things I have ever witnessed.

08-04-2013 07:01PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I think Maggie really hated the Irish.
There seemed to be venom in her voice whenever she discussed anything to do with Ireland and the Troubles even before the Brighton bombing.
She was also hated in the north of England too as she made so many people unemployed in the steel and mining industries.

Not too many will shed a tear for Maggie.

She had plenty of respect for my dad while she was PM and plenty for other Irish men and women too.

LordSutch · 08-04-2013 07:01PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Not too many will shed a tear for Maggie.

I beg to disagree.

Loved & loathed in equal amounts, would be the reality IMO. see post#100

jaffacakesyum · 08-04-2013 07:06PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

So you are comparing a fledgling, reactive measure of confining AIDS patients in hospital-isolation to that of a concentration camp?

As for the rest of it, i don't think it's a good idea to promote either heterosexuality or homosexuality to children. Let them be children, they'll figure out their sexuality for themselves. To suggest she was homophobic based on your quote is ridiculous, and as i said she appointed an openly gay MP to cabinet.

She was a conservative traditionalist, marriage = man & woman. You find millions if not billions with similar views worldwide. That's vastly different from wanting homosexuality outlawed, at no point did she suggest that it should be a crime to be gay.

Um seriously, you don't think that quote is homophobic? She's suggesting it's immoral and that nobody has a 'right' to be gay which is ridiculous and yes, it is homophobic.

But, I agree with you. She's a tradionalist conservative so it's not exactly a unique horrible aspect about her - plenty of politicians felt the same I'm sure.

Spunge · 08-04-2013 07:08PM

rest in piss

Mod: Banned.

tayto lover · 08-04-2013 07:09PM

Lapin wrote: »

We need someone with the balls Thatcher had to take on the unions in this country.

I'm not on about picking fights with Argentina or letting hunger strikers starve to death.

We need someone to stand up and crush the power of the unions like she did in the 80s.

Our spineless government are bringing this country to its knees by bending over backwards for the public service trade unions.

We need someone with Thatcher's clout to rip up the Croke Park Agreement and run the public services like a private industry.

Put your dress on and run for election then

hotmail.com · 08-04-2013 07:12PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

As for the rest of it, i don't think it's a good idea to promote either heterosexuality or homosexuality to children. Let them be children, they'll figure out their sexuality for themselves. To suggest she was homophobic based on your quote is ridiculous, and as i said she appointed an openly gay MP to cabinet.
.

How can you promote a sexual orientation? What a ridiculous thing to say.

She was homophobic, there's no discussion about. Blame context and all that, but she was a homophobic.

wonderfullife · 08-04-2013 07:12PM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Um seriously, you don't think that quote is homophobic? She's suggesting it's immoral and that nobody has a 'right' to be gay which is ridiculous and yes, it is homophobic.

But, I agree with you. She's a tradionalist conservative so it's not exactly a unique horrible aspect about her - plenty of politicians felt the same I'm sure.

A Tory gay politician wrote a piece in 2007 outlining why he felt she was a "gay icon".

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/brian-coleman/2007/06/lady-thatcher-gay-tory

In my experience many of the gay Politicians in the Tory party (a not inconsiderable number) joined the Conservative party and became active during the Thatcher years. Whilst her government acquired an unfortunate reputation for not being gay friendly, the notorious and unnecessary Section 28 (under which no one was ever prosecuted) did serious damage to the equality agenda.

Whilst her government might have had an anti-gay aura there was simply nothing in her personal attitude to demonstrate any prejudice, she appointed gay ministers including the tragic Earl of Avon (son of ex-Prime Minister Anthony Eden) who was one of the earliest victims of Aids.

Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

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