Cyclists on a Backroad

Galwaybiker · 08-04-2013 12:21PM

This is for safety. we were out cycling in a single file and a car hit us from behind and nearly killed one of us. The first thing he said was that he didnt see us. From now on ill take up as much of the road as i'm legally aloud to. Driver should learn what the big long pedal is for in a car.

Icyseanfitz · 08-04-2013 12:22PM

thebullkf wrote: »

is that a statement or a question?

so you think its ok for a motorist to get the blame for youre actions .. cos its better than dying...???

not at all, if a cyclist breaks the rules its entirely their own fault, all im saying is that any altercation between a motor vehicle and a cyclist will always end up worse for the cyclist (from a health/injury standpoint)

gramar · 08-04-2013 12:25PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Gonna go out on a limb here but guessing people arent gonna accept a US study

I don't doubt that. Point is that there are reports from different countries from the UK to the US to Austrailia in relation to the whose at fault in car/bicycle accidents. It's anywhere between 20-60% for bikes but depends on a whole load of factors. He does highlight though that accidents caused by bikes do represent a sizeable proportion of all accidents.

Ray Palmer · 08-04-2013 12:26PM

gramar wrote: »

Car's may be involved in accidents but it doesn't necessarily mean they are at fault. I see cyclist take turns without signalling, run read lights and cycle at night without lights or reflective material on a daily basis.
Not to mention cycling around half cut but sure that's ok.

Actually I am pretty sure you will find most car accidents don't involve other road users other than other cars. Even at that many are cars without any other road users. The highest listed cause of accidents is driver error and speed.

I see cars do pretty much everything you mentioned with the exception of missing lights but you certainly get faulty lights and high beams on when they shouldn't. Reflective gear isn't mandatory and shouldn't be required. If you can't see a bike with lights, reflectors you shouldn't drive.

Surveyor11 · 08-04-2013 12:26PM

94tgdmxj6s370p wrote: »

Read the first post on this tread

Well, fair enough. Bit of a difference between being held up a few seconds behind a group of cyclists and cars packing into roads that were never designed to take them in the first place.

glic71rods46t0 · 08-04-2013 12:29PM

gramar wrote: »

I don't doubt that. Point is that there are reports from different countries from the UK to the US to Austrailia in relation to the whose at fault in car/bicycle accidents. It's anywhere between 20-60% for bikes but depends on a whole load of factors. He does highlight though that accidents caused by bikes do represent a sizeable proportion of all accidents.

but but but... this doesn't fit into the established narrative of 2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad ...this doesn't compute...better just dismiss the report as not being relevant to Ireland. If something like that got printed in the Irish Times you would get the usual screwballs around here attacking the IT for going off the narrative!

VinLieger · 08-04-2013 12:31PM

Galwaybiker wrote: »

Driver should learn what the big long pedal is for in a car.

LOL you mean the accelerator?

Ericaa · 08-04-2013 12:31PM

thebullkf wrote: »

to be honest i cannot remmber the last time i saw a red light jumper in a car

I see this every time I go to town. I've nearly been hit by a speeding car who was running a red light at a pedestrian crossing.

gramar · 08-04-2013 12:31PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Actually I am pretty sure you will find most car accidents don't involve other road users other than other cars. Even at that many are cars without any other road users. The highest listed cause of accidents is driver error and speed.

I see cars do pretty much everything you mentioned with the exception of missing lights but you certainly get faulty lights and high beams on when they shouldn't. Reflective gear isn't mandatory and shouldn't be required. If you can't see a bike with lights, reflectors you shouldn't drive.

What I meant was car/bicyle accidents, not all car accidents regardless of how they happened.

Can't agree with not wearing reflective clothing. On dark roads that is lethal. Let the driver know you're there and do both a favour.

Icyseanfitz · 08-04-2013 12:33PM

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL you mean the accelerator?

yeah its been proven the 20-60% of the time actually accelerating through a cyclist rather than breaking leaves the cyclist a better chance for survival.

:pac:

thebullkf · 08-04-2013 12:33PM

Ericaa wrote: »

I see this every time I go to town. I've nearly been hit by a speeding car who was running a red light at a pedestrian crossing.

how often do you go to town>? What town? I drive through Dublin every single day on both sides of the liffey... and my experience is different. Odd that you see a car jumping red lights every time you go to town.. but not cyclists.

glic71rods46t0 · 08-04-2013 12:35PM

thebullkf wrote: »

how often do you go to town>? What town? I drive through Dublin every single day on both sides of the liffey... and my experience is different. Odd.

I think Erica going to town refers to Tramore whereas you are in Dublin!

Ericaa · 08-04-2013 12:36PM

thebullkf wrote: »

how often do you go to town>? What town? I drive through Dublin every single day on both sides of the liffey... and my experience is different. Odd.

Hmmm, around three or four times a week I'd say!
Waterford city. (I know I said town but everyone here refers to it as going to town.)

The driving here is atrocious. Amber doesn't mean stop here, it means speed up.

thebullkf · 08-04-2013 12:38PM

94tgdmxj6s370p wrote: »

I think Erica going to town refers to Tramore whereas you are in Dublin!

doesn't matter to be honest, i lic=ved in galway, cork waterford derry and limerick ( city and county) and my experience has been the same though the standard of driving outside cities has been an eye opener i must admit. I remember in Balliansloe the truck in front just stopped, put on hazards and went to the ATM.... 15:00hrs on a Friday... nuts.

Training and education for all is the answer.

thebullkf · 08-04-2013 12:39PM

Ericaa wrote: »

Hmmm, around three or four times a week I'd say!
Waterford city. (I know I said town but everyone here refers to it as going to town.)

The driving here is atrocious. Amber doesn't mean stop here, it means speed up.

so 4 times a week you see cars jumping red lights... how times have you seen cyclists do the same - genuine question?

Tiddlypeeps · 08-04-2013 12:39PM

gramar wrote: »

A study published this year:
"The study, presented to the Minneapolis City Council on January 15, analyzed 10 years of bike versus car crash data. The research found that in 64 percent of these, investigators determined that the driver was at fault. In 59 percent of collisions between a car and a bicycle, the cyclist was at fault. In many cases, investigators found both to be at fault.
The researchers found that there were certain driving and cycling behaviors that were likely to result in a collision. For motorists, failure to yield to bikes and failure to pay attention to them were factors in crashes. For bicyclists, ignoring signs, traffic signals and lane markings often were precursors to collisions, as was riding in unpredictable ways"

If I'm reading that correctly it says 64% of drivers were at fault and 59% of cyclists were at fault, the overlap being where both were at fault.

So that means that 41% of accidents were where drivers were solely at fault and 35% were where cyclists were solely at fault.

If thats correct, that to me supports the "there are a**holes from all walks of life" theory.

I also assume that is only studying accidents between cars and bikes? Not all road accidents. Correct me if I'm wrong. The implication I got from your previous post was that cyclists were responsible for 20 - 60% of all road accidents, which just sounds unbelievable to me.

Galwaybiker · 08-04-2013 12:41PM

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL you mean the accelerator?

thats the one VinLieger

seamus · 08-04-2013 12:42PM

thebullkf wrote: »

to be honest i cannot remmber the last time i saw a red light jumper in a car ( have seen a few where is amber and they turn etc) but every. single. day. i see cyclists breaking red lights. every day. they onviously think they are bullet proof.

Every day I see cars breaking red lights. Usually at least one at every junction. Other drivers usually don't see this because they're five or six cars back, or they're the guy at the front who did stop.

It's a misnomer to believe that drivers are in any way more law abiding than cyclists. Rule breaking by all roads users is rampant, no group is better or worse than others.

Though our relatively low level of road deaths and injuries would seem to indicate that even though we break the rules, we do so deliberately rather than carelessly.

Ericaa · 08-04-2013 12:45PM

thebullkf wrote: »

so 4 times a week you see cars jumping red lights... how times have you seen cyclists do the same - genuine question?

Oh of course I have. Not as often, as there's not as many of them. At least they can hear me tell them off when they do it.

Tiddlypeeps · 08-04-2013 12:51PM

Ericaa wrote: »

Oh of course I have. Not as often, as there's not as many of them. At least they can hear me tell them off when they do it.

Unfortunately you saying you see it happen isn't very good evidence that it does in fact happen more with cyclists than cars.

Confirmation bias is the phenomenon where people remember things much better when they confirm what they already believe and tend not to take much notice of evidence to the contrary.

Both cyclists and motorists are guilty of this because both of them are watching the other just waiting for them to make a mistake they can complain about while ignoring what others like them are doing.

I have no idea what the real numbers are (somebody may have written an impartial report on it?). I have seen some cyclists around Dublin pull off some crazy stuff, no idea how they are still alive. But I can say the same about drivers.

thebullkf · 08-04-2013 12:52PM

seamus wrote: »

Every day I see cars breaking red lights. Usually at least one at every junction. Other drivers usually don't see this because they're five or six cars back, or they're the guy at the front who did stop.

It's a misnomer to believe that drivers are in any way more law abiding than cyclists. Rule breaking by all roads users is rampant, no group is better or worse than others.

Though our relatively low level of road deaths and injuries would seem to indicate that even though we break the rules, we do so deliberately rather than carelessly.

I cylce and use motorcycle so i am too at the top of the 'queue' so am equally well placed and i think you are exaggerating tbh.

The Bishop Basher · 08-04-2013 12:55PM

No point trying to reason with cyclists on boards. Their arrogance and self righteousness coupled with their hatred and intolerance of other road users blinds them from seeing any form of reason in these debates.

A quick trip to the cycling forum will show you how they talk about their bikes and related matters as if they were talking about cars. I have no doubt that many of them own cars, but you could be forgiven for concluding that many of them are closet frustrated motorists and would own a car if they could.

They demand all the rights of motorists but dare mention tax, insurance, licensing or competency tests and you'll be hit with a barrage of abuse and farcical reasons why they should be exempt.

They will continue to travel in significant numbers especially while on their "sportifs" which is just a fancy word to help them flout the law, and hog the road as they see fit because "they can" and "they have a right to".

The comments in this thread are a indicative of the mindset and it's no wonder motorists grow more and more impatient and weary when listening to this tripe.

A bit of courtesy and cop on would go a long way on all sides but every time i read one of these threads, my disdain for the attitude demonstrated by cyclists and as a result for cyclists themselves, grows that little bit more.

seamus · 08-04-2013 12:55PM

thebullkf wrote: »

I cylce and use motorcycle so i am too at the top of the 'queue' so am equally well placed and i think you are exaggerating tbh.

I'm not. If you include people who break the amber when it would have been safe to stop, then it's every single junction. But in terms of just reds, it's most junctions in my experience.

Ericaa · 08-04-2013 12:57PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Unfortunately you saying you see it happen isn't very good evidence that it does in fact happen more with cyclists than cars.

What are you on about!?

Tiddlypeeps · 08-04-2013 01:01PM

Ericaa wrote: »

What are you on about!?

Sorry got it the wrong way around, same point still stands, and goes for anybody else claiming they see one break lights more than the other.

Knasher · 08-04-2013 01:02PM

Swanner wrote: »

The comments in this thread are a indicative of the mindset and it's no wonder motorists grow more and more impatient and weary when listening to this tripe.

In all my years on boards I have yet to see one of these threads started by a cyclist in AH.

Ray Palmer · 08-04-2013 01:02PM

gramar wrote: »

What I meant was car/bicyle accidents, not all car accidents regardless of how they happened.

Can't agree with not wearing reflective clothing. On dark roads that is lethal. Let the driver know you're there and do both a favour.

Given there is a high figure of accident happening without bicycles involved you can pretty much be sure drivers have a higher degree of fault. It is pretty simple, they get in accidents without any others involved so when the get in accidents with others probability tells you they are likely at fault. Every car driver speeds not every cyclist breaks lights, doesn't have lights etc...

On a dark road bicycle lights should be easier to see. If you can't see a bicycle light you are not driving with due care and attention. I can assure you drivers don't see you when wearing the gear and the drive closer to you when you have all the gear. There are studies on drivers doing this as they take the cyclist to be more experienced so don't give them enough space.

The Bishop Basher · 08-04-2013 01:08PM

Knasher wrote: »

In all my years on boards I have yet to see one of these threads started by a cyclist in AH.

1) That's irrelevant to the point I was making

2) The cycling forum is full of anti motorist threads started by cyclists.

3) Cyclists always show up in droves to these threads in AH to remind the rest of us about their rights as cyclists.

Lads, we know. But the antagonistic style of communication so many of you seem to adopt really doesn't help your cause.

seamus · 08-04-2013 01:12PM

2. No it's not
3. Do you propose that ignorant ranting is permitted to continue unabated?

People tend to respond to antagonism with antagonism. So when a thread starts with irrelevance about clothes being too tight, and 3 posts later someone is advocating assaulting cyclists simply for being on the road, you're not exactly talking about a reasonable discussion here.

hoodwinked · 08-04-2013 01:14PM

Swanner wrote: »

No point trying to reason with cyclists on boards. Their arrogance and self righteousness coupled with their hatred and intolerance of other road users blinds them from seeing any form of reason in these debates.

A quick trip to the cycling forum will show you how they talk about their bikes and related matters as if they were talking about cars. I have no doubt that many of them own cars, but you could be forgiven for concluding that many of them are closet frustrated motorists and would own a car if they could.

They demand all the rights of motorists but dare mention tax, insurance, licensing or competency tests and you'll be hit with a barrage of abuse and farcical reasons why they should be exempt.

They will continue to travel in significant numbers especially while on their "sportifs" which is just a fancy word to help them flout the law, and hog the road as they see fit because "they can" and "they have a right to".

The comments in this thread are a indicative of the mindset and it's no wonder motorists grow more and more impatient and weary when listening to this tripe.

A bit of courtesy and cop on would go a long way on all sides but every time i read one of these threads, my disdain for the attitude demonstrated by cyclists and as a result for cyclists themselves, grows that little bit more.

i cannot thank this enough, its spot on and perfectly matches my feelings on the matter,

cyclists were nether here or there on my radar as a motorist, having been on a motorcycle many many times i was always aware of bikes (both motor or pedal) and used do things such as giving space to them to over take in heavy traffic, check for them when turning...etc

after reading numerous threads here on boards and seeing the attitude of the posts by most cyclists on here i would be now leaning towards (for lycra clad pedal cyclists) a more "who has the right of way" and if its me, not giving an inch mentality, just by reading some of these posts.

its that attitude you get from a small amount of motorists and large amount of the cyclists (just like the "i know my rights" consumer brigade) that just irritates you and makes you care that little bit less about them each time they do it.

Cyclists on a Backroad

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