Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Farmer Pudsey · 07-04-2013 02:25PM

kceire wrote: »

Have you any proof of this? Or is this another one of your stories that you heard from a friends brothers best mates dog walker?

There has been many strikes and industrial actions in the private sector over recent years and I have haven't heard of mass firing because of it. My brother recently went on strike in ADT, he did not get fired, quite the opposite I'm afraid.

It's about time people that sit on their sofa maybe receiving massive grants(farming/education) got up and worked and done something with themselves.

I did say anything about being sacked, I made the point that workers in the private sector that take industrial action are not paid(removed from payroll by suspension), In the Public it seems acceptable that you do not do your work yet can remain on the payroll..

I am a PAYE worker as well as having a small business and as I have stated before I have an issue with the way Education Grans are means tested. At present there are virtually no government funded agri grants avail to farmers. The SFP is an EU funded agri support measure.

Gumbo · 07-04-2013 02:29PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I did say anything about being sacked, I made the point that workers in the private sector that take industrial action are not paid(removed from payroll by suspension), In the Public it seems acceptable that you do not do your work yet can remain on the payroll..

Public workers do not get paid when on strike either. They are also removed from payroll (by suspension) as you put it.

Pappa Charlie · 07-04-2013 02:39PM

I've worked in the private sector, semi state and now public sector, the strongest union I was in was in a medium sized private sector company and getting sacked was no more of a possibility than in any of the other sectors, as a garda I've less rights when it comes to industrial action and a bigger chance of being sacked than when I was in the private sector, but it might not suit the public sector bashing arguement

MMAGirl · 07-04-2013 03:09PM

I think some people in this thread are, for the first time in their lives, getting to understand why there are such things as unions.

Dreamertime · 07-04-2013 03:16PM

Brian Hayes ratcheted up the intimidation of low paid Public servants on Newstalk today by threatening a whole restructure of pay and pensions.

You'd expect it from a Right Wing Hawk such as himself but how do Labour stand idly by..?

Thankfully the majority of PS workes have probably voted by now...

MMAGirl · 07-04-2013 03:49PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Brian Hayes ratcheted up the intimidation of low paid Public servants on Newstalk today by threatening a whole restructure of pay and pensions.

You'd expect it from a Right Wing Hawk such as himself but how do Labour stand idly by..?

Thankfully the majority of PS workes have probably voted by now...

Does that idiot think that if the PS reject the current deal that they will accept any other WORSE deal afterwards.

I think he the government have to decide whether they come back with a better deal or go the whole way and legislate and gamble on how severe the wrath of the PS will be. My gut feeling is that if that happens ALL of the PS will unite on this one.

I dont see labour surviving for a start.

I can already see election posters for opposition parties in the next election with Endas picture on the with the a speech bubble "It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a person’s home". So Fine Gael already have a lot to worry about. Do they want more?
Cant wait to see the rest of the posters if there is a war with the PS.

jim_beam · 07-04-2013 09:22PM

MMAGirl wrote: »

id say its more likely that the rest of us would get a shock how much we actually rely on the PS instead.

i was thinking about that the other day. they will have a massive amount of power if they stick together, but only if they stick together.

i still think its unfair to expect the PS to take more hits than the rest of us to save the country money. so im not surprised they have finally grown a spine.

the public sector have it a lot better than the rest of the country on average , its logical that they should experience more frequent cuts , besides the number or cuts they endure are irrelevant , its how much they get paid which counts , they were nearly 50% ahead of the private sector five years ago , they are still 30% ahead.

Mod: Site banned re-reg.

Gumbo · 07-04-2013 09:29PM

jim_beam wrote: »

the public sector have it a lot better than the rest of the country on average , its logical that they should experience more frequent cuts , besides the number or cuts they endure are irrelevant , its how much they get paid which counts , they were nearly 50% ahead of the private sector five years ago , they are still 30% ahead

Out of all my mates together, and family, it's the private sector workers on average that are doing better

Paddy James · 07-04-2013 09:36PM

I have to laugh

I don't work in the public sector but I hear the stories and been honest the waste of money is huge

Flexi time ? Ah don't get me started
Increments ? Less said
Pension? Less said
Doing a lot of administration and red tape just to keep people in jobs?

Seriously the public service is over staffed by people who's heart is not in change as they will loose their handy number and unions don't want losses as they will be on lower wages as less people paying subscriptions ............
It goes on it goes on while other people are on planes to foreign countries just to put bread on table

07-04-2013 09:42PM

MMAGirl wrote: »

So then the big bad mod pulls a yellow card out of his arse too.

Banned 3 days from forum for in-thread discussion of moderation, uncivil attitude after receiving warning, and for a post that was way below standards for Irish Economy.

K-9 · 07-04-2013 10:54PM

kceire wrote: »

Public workers do not get paid when on strike either. They are also removed from payroll (by suspension) as you put it.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I've worked in the private sector, semi state and now public sector, the strongest union I was in was in a medium sized private sector company and getting sacked was no more of a possibility than in any of the other sectors, as a garda I've less rights when it comes to industrial action and a bigger chance of being sacked than when I was in the private sector, but it might not suit the public sector bashing arguement

Mod: Both banned for ignoring instructions not to post on this thread again.

skafish · 07-04-2013 11:08PM

jim_beam wrote: »

the public sector have it a lot better than the rest of the country on average , its logical that they should experience more frequent cuts , besides the number or cuts they endure are irrelevant , its how much they get paid which counts , they were nearly 50% ahead of the private sector five years ago , they are still 30% ahead

WTF? have you read the posta in this and other fora?

Most lower and middle ranking PS are a long way from being well off, and for many of us, if this deal goes through, we will be pushed over the edge to near poverty.

It has got to the stage where my family circumstances will improve if my wife gives up work and goes on SW.

Please check your facts before posting inane uninformed ravings

K-9 · 07-04-2013 11:15PM

skafish wrote: »

WTF? have you read the posta in this and other fora?

Most lower and middle ranking PS are a long way from being well off, and for many of us, if this deal goes through, we will be pushed over the edge to near poverty.

It has got to the stage where my family circumstances will improve if my wife gives up work and goes on SW.

Please check your facts before posting inane uninformed ravings

Sorry, that poster is a re-reg so is site banned, apologies for not putting a note in.

kippy · 08-04-2013 10:09AM

MMAGirl wrote: »

I think some people in this thread are, for the first time in their lives, getting to understand why there are such things as unions.

Unions, in principle, are a good thing, however over the past number of years all I have seen unions do is hold back efficiencies in the public service and indeed ensure that the worst performers in the public service remain there.

At the moment the unions are all over the shop and I don't anticipate the appetite in the majority of the members for major industrial action.

Being completely honest about it, CP2 should be scrapped and graduated paycuts given across the board. Would be fairer and would be a lot more straightforward to bargain back in future.

My main problems with most of this is we still haven't seen anyone jailed for the mess that the place is in.

Those who say they cannot afford any more cuts need to look for work elsewhere or leave the service. They need to look at their own situation. Pretty straightforward to be honest. No one is tying you to work in the public service here.
If that involves further cost to the state, directly or indirectly, then so be it.

tayto lover · 08-04-2013 10:42AM

kippy wrote: »

Unions, in principle, are a good thing, however over the past number of years all I have seen unions do is hold back efficiencies in the public service and indeed ensure that the worst performers in the public service remain there.

At the moment the unions are all over the shop and I don't anticipate the appetite in the majority of the members for major industrial action.

Being completely honest about it, CP2 should be scrapped and graduated paycuts given across the board. Would be fairer and would be a lot more straightforward to bargain back in future.

My main problems with most of this is we still haven't seen anyone jailed for the mess that the place is in.

Those who say they cannot afford any more cuts need to look for work elsewhere or leave the service. They need to look at their own situation. Pretty straightforward to be honest. No one is tying you to work in the public service here.
If that involves further cost to the state, directly or indirectly, then so be it.

It is really VERY stupid to suggest that people who don't like cuts should look elsewhere for a new job. Show me where all these jobs are.
Is it wrong for people to object to their terms and conditions of employment being changed? I don't think so as many are already on the breadline from the reports we are hearing.

kippy · 08-04-2013 12:48PM

tayto lover wrote: »

It is really VERY stupid to suggest that people who don't like cuts should look elsewhere for a new job. Show me where all these jobs are.
Is it wrong for people to object to their terms and conditions of employment being changed? I don't think so as many are already on the breadline from the reports we are hearing.

Why is it stupid?
It's how it works elsewhere.

As has been shown in the past terms and conditions of employment have changed in the public sector in the past and will do so, no matter how CP2 goes, in the future.

I get kinda sick of people moaning about how little money they have and how bad their jobs are/how close to the breadline they are etc.

On a regular basis I review where I am with my career/earnings/terms and conditions etc. If I don't think I am doing as well as I should be in my new job I:
1. Look to move jobs, considering all the ramifications that will entail.
2. Look at a longer term plan of retraining, in some way, shape or form, to adapt my skill set to a different career.

If people don't like what's being doled out to them then makes changes to your own circumstances to improve it.
Expecting the state to go bankrupt in an effort to pay what you think you are worth is just crazy.

(There are literally thousands of jobs out there at the moment btw)

creedp · 08-04-2013 02:21PM

kippy wrote: »

Why is it stupid?
It's how it works elsewhere.

As has been shown in the past terms and conditions of employment have changed in the public sector in the past and will do so, no matter how CP2 goes, in the future.

I get kinda sick of people moaning about how little money they have and how bad their jobs are/how close to the breadline they are etc.

On a regular basis I review where I am with my career/earnings/terms and conditions etc. If I don't think I am doing as well as I should be in my new job I:
1. Look to move jobs, considering all the ramifications that will entail.
2. Look at a longer term plan of retraining, in some way, shape or form, to adapt my skill set to a different career.

If people don't like what's being doled out to them then makes changes to your own circumstances to improve it.
Expecting the state to go bankrupt in an effort to pay what you think you are worth is just crazy.

(There are literally thousands of jobs out there at the moment btw)

So basically it not a negative issue for an organisation to lose thousands of its more productive people ... as has been shown before employers will shut down, shed jobs before introducing pay cuts, not to mind introducing the 3rd pay cut in 4 years along with other changes to terms and conditions. It doesn't matter of course because the PS is just one big homogonous mess and really it produces nothing so therefore whats to be lost.

And by the way glad to hear the unemployment crisis is over!

kippy · 08-04-2013 02:46PM

creedp wrote: »

So basically it not a negative issue for an organisation to lose thousands of its more productive people ... as has been shown before employers will shut down, shed jobs before introducing pay cuts, not to mind introducing the 3rd pay cut in 4 years along with other changes to terms and conditions. It doesn't matter of course because the PS is just one big homogonous mess and really it produces nothing so therefore whats to be lost.

And by the way glad to hear the unemployment crisis is over!

No one is saying its a "good thing".
The point is there are lots here and elsewhere moaning about how close to the breadline they are and they "cannot" take any more cuts. No one is forcing them to work where they are and if their work is that bad they should look at doing something else. Simple as.

The problem isn't the shedding of "productive" people. It's the retaining of the non-productive ones - look at how the unions manage to do that. Try get rid of a staff member in the service and look at what happens.

As for the jobs crisis. Of course there's a crisis, for those that:
1. Wont or cannot retrain for whatever reason.
and/or
2. Will not or cannot move from where they are.

There are literally THOUSANDS of jobs out there - of course not one for everyone that was unemployed (was or is there ever) Those public servants that think they are worth what they are paid can easily get work in the private sector where the terms and conditions are so good, can't they?

Third or Fourth paycut, it makes no odds, there will be paycuts and direct and indirect tax rises until the budget comes within an asses roar of balancing. Thats how the state works.

Those thousands extra in the public service wouldn't have been there but for the "good" times and the social partnership raises wouldn't have been there but for the good times either.
Now we are seeing benchmarking in reverse as the money isn't there.
Public servants cannot have it every way. Make hay while the sun shines but not take the hits when the state is broke?

(Public Servant myself btw, sick and tired of those around me moaning tbh)

ardmacha · 08-04-2013 03:27PM

Now we are seeing benchmarking in reverse as the money isn't there.

We are not seeing anything of the sort. Benchmarking provided for different increases for different people, those who got lower increases in the benchmarking may well be those who get cut most now and the other way around.

e.g. Higher Executive Officer benchmarking 10% increase will be modestly affected by present proposals whereas an Engineer who got 5% in benchmarking will be substantially affected by present proposals. These proposals do not have any connection with the private sector, otherwise a painter (say) might have a reduction whereas a programmer might not.

Farmer Pudsey · 08-04-2013 04:04PM

ardmacha wrote: »

We are not seeing anything of the sort. Benchmarking provided for different increases for different people, those who got lower increases in the benchmarking may well be those who get cut most now and the other way around.

e.g. Higher Executive Officer benchmarking 10% increase will be modestly affected by present proposals whereas an Engineer who got 5% in benchmarking will be substantially affected by present proposals. These proposals do not have any connection with the private sector, otherwise a painter (say) might have a reduction whereas a programmer might not.

Many of us hear argued for bench marking in reverse however most PS posters were against it. The reality is that we have to balance the books and it cannot all be in tax increase, capital and services cuts. When you decide that all staff must be kept then all must suffer not just themalingerer

Dreamertime · 08-04-2013 05:10PM

The more we hear intimidation of PS workers by Labour Party Ministers, the more I'm convinced CP II is going to collapse

carpejugulum · 08-04-2013 05:29PM

skafish wrote: »

Most lower and middle ranking PS are a long way from being well off, and for many of us, if this deal goes through, we will be pushed over the edge to near poverty.

1, what yearly salary is considered edge of poverty (in the PS)?
2, what do you and your unions do to tackle the waste in the PS and huge number of "managerial" positions and quangos in the PS?
3, do you understand your employer is bankrupt and the only parties willing to lend require PS cuts?

tayto lover · 08-04-2013 05:32PM

kippy wrote: »

Why is it stupid?
It's how it works elsewhere.

As has been shown in the past terms and conditions of employment have changed in the public sector in the past and will do so, no matter how CP2 goes, in the future.

I get kinda sick of people moaning about how little money they have and how bad their jobs are/how close to the breadline they are etc.

On a regular basis I review where I am with my career/earnings/terms and conditions etc. If I don't think I am doing as well as I should be in my new job I:
1. Look to move jobs, considering all the ramifications that will entail.
2. Look at a longer term plan of retraining, in some way, shape or form, to adapt my skill set to a different career.

If people don't like what's being doled out to them then makes changes to your own circumstances to improve it.
Expecting the state to go bankrupt in an effort to pay what you think you are worth is just crazy.

(There are literally thousands of jobs out there at the moment btw)

It is stupid.
You also haven't shown me where these better paying jobs are either.

People are close to the breadline because their wages have been cut. Just read the Credit Union reports or like all the other shills maybe you think the Credit Union reports are works of fiction.
I ran my own business for many years and gave increases regularly especially for good workers who went out of their way to make my business a success. If I cut wages I would not have had such dedicated workers and my business would have suffered.
I am not expecting the state to go broke in order to pay people what they think they are worth either. Nor am I expecting workers to work for a pittance either like many on here seem to want. If you cut wages you also cut spending power and many businesses are already going west because of that.

Dreamertime · 08-04-2013 05:35PM

carpejugulum wrote: »

1, what yearly salary is considered edge of poverty (in the PS)?
2, what do you and your unions do to tackle the waste in the PS and huge number of "managerial" positions and quangos in the PS?
3, do you understand your employer is bankrupt and the only parties willing to lend require PS cuts?

I take home €382 a week, Nett.

ardmacha · 08-04-2013 05:37PM

what do you and your unions do to tackle the waste in the PS and huge number of "managerial" positions and quangos in the PS?

I love the way people that probably consider themselves anti-union and complain that the unions have too much say in the PS, then come on here and criticise the unions for not running the PS!

tayto lover · 08-04-2013 05:46PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

The more we hear intimidation of PS workers by Labour Party Ministers, the more I'm convinced CP II is going to collapse

I really think it will collapse. Then we will have people in the Private Sector who will really appreciate what the Public Sector do and rely on them unknown to themselves.
Imagine the amount of workers in the Private Sector who would have to stay at home to mind children if only the teachers went on strike. The row over the strike in the Passport Office would seem like a teddy bear's picnic compared to it. But it would really focus some of the small minds.

Dreamertime · 08-04-2013 05:51PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I really think it will collapse. Then we will have people in the Private Sector who will really appreciate what the Public Sector do and rely on them unknown to themselves.
Imagine the amount of workers in the Private Sector who would have to stay at home to mind children if only the teachers went on strike. The row over the strike in the Passport Office would seem like a teddy bear's picnic compared to it. But it would really focus some of the small minds.

Heaven forbid if we delay Tarquin and Síofra from heading to the states on their J1's

carpejugulum · 08-04-2013 07:44PM

ardmacha wrote: »

I love the way people that probably consider themselves anti-union and complain that the unions have too much say in the PS, then come on here and criticise the unions for not running the PS!

Or simply we recognize unions have too much say but run their side of things very poorly ... although understandably so.

Dreamertime · 08-04-2013 07:50PM

carpejugulum wrote: »

Or simply we recognize unions have too much say but run their side of things very poorly ... although understandably so.

If we have so much say, why are we being blackguarded by Howlin?

woodoo · 08-04-2013 08:36PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

I take home €382 a week, Nett.

You will be told that that is loads of money, never mind that it would barely be enough to entice some people of the dole. Welfare is where the really big changes need to happen imo.

I voted for the CPA2 as i think its not a bad deal. I have no further pay cut and i will be getting my next increment soon. I just have to work a couple of hours extra per week but thats not so bad really.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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