Respecting other cultures

The Th!ng · 07-04-2013 10:38PM

I think bullfighting is a disgusting spectacle and I like it when the matadors are killed.

Da Shins Kelly · 07-04-2013 10:45PM

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Ive found the opposite to be true, Irish people tend to be very defensive of their country. Even more so when abroad. Your experience points to the contrary - fair enough.

Anyway, if you want to wind up a Spaniard, ask one about their moorish ancestry. Even better if you can subtly bring it up in conversation.

They tend to freak the f*ck out.

I've found the Spanish surprisingly nationalistic. They take an awful lot of pride in their history and culture and everything, and I'd agree with Izzy here, they don't seem to take criticism that well. Far more than Irish people. If anything, I've found Irish people to be almost the opposite - completely self-loathing.

pragmatic1 · 07-04-2013 10:45PM

All humans are equal but not all human cultures are equal.

Legs.Eleven · 07-04-2013 10:48PM

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Same in Ireland. Like one big dysfunctional family. We can criticise the place until we are blue in the face - but god help any foreigner who joins in or does the same!

Ffs - the first question put to any celebrity being interviewed by rte is what do you make of Ireland. If they answered by saying you guys have a major drink problem, the litter around the place is insane, weather sucks and you have tracksuit wearing, junked up demons roaming your city centre - they would be lynched.

Izzy Wizzy is right - the Spanish get really offended too....worse than us Irish. In fact does any culture take criticism well from foreigners? Americans are also highly sensitive of criticism. I can't think of one culture who'd take it on the chin tbh.

Legs.Eleven · 07-04-2013 10:51PM

The Spanish have a massive inferiority complex that I don't think people are aware of internationally. The defensiveness is to hide their underlying insecurities. They'd also admit to that themselves, I think.

WayneMolloy · 07-04-2013 10:57PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I've found the Spanish surprisingly nationalistic. They take an awful lot of pride in their history and culture and everything, and I'd agree with Izzy here, they don't seem to take criticism that well. Far more than Irish people. If anything, I've found Irish people to be almost the opposite - completely self-loathing.

You are hanging out with the wrong type of Irish people so!

Just out of interest - why were you surprised that the Spanish were nationalistic?

And here is me being even nosier again - whats the national mood like over there at present?

wolfpawnat · 07-04-2013 10:58PM

You respectfully declined. Nothing wrong with that.

You can respect a culture in general but have a dislike for a particular tradition in it.

WayneMolloy · 07-04-2013 11:05PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Izzy Wizzy is right - the Spanish get really offended too....worse than us Irish. In fact does any culture take criticism well from foreigners? Americans are also highly sensitive of criticism. I can't think of one culture who'd take it on the chin tbh.

Left wing Americans are very critical of their country and fellow citizens. Lefties tend to be self loathing, I find.

Chuck Stone · 07-04-2013 11:09PM

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Left wing Americans are very critical of their country and fellow citizens. Lefties tend to be self loathing, I find.

You've it all worked out bro.

Legs.Eleven · 07-04-2013 11:10PM

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Left wing Americans are very critical of their country and fellow citizens. Lefties tend to be self loathing, I find.

There's plenty to criticise. The left-wing in Spain would be more critical than the right-wing. I can usually tell someone's political leanings by how open they to hearing criticism. I think it's healthy. No culture is perfect and if we can't criticise constructively and find ways to make changes, how can we ever develop as a culture?

I know you're not a fan of progressives or liberals so I know you won't agree.

St.Spodo · 07-04-2013 11:12PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Are we always obliged to accept and respect every aspect of another culture? I ask because I've been asked a few times by a few different people if I would be interested in attending a bullfight here in Spain. When I declined, there seemed to be some surprise and one guy said, "why wouldn't you go? It's part of the culture." To me, bullfighting is not a particularly nice aspect of Spanish culture though, and it's not something I agree with at all, and yet I did find myself being somewhat guilted by other people, as if I was being disrespectful to the culture of the country I'm pretty much a guest in. But, should we always just stay quiet and get on with it? Or are cultures open to criticism and irreverence?

For me, I don't think anyone is obliged to blindly respect everything about another culture simply because it's different. Surely part of the travelling experience and learning about other cultures is also realizing that not every aspect of every culture is particularly nice, including our own?

You are not obliged to respect anything you find offensive or is contrary to your sense of morality.

07-04-2013 11:18PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

The Spanish have a massive inferiority complex that I don't think people are aware of internationally. The defensiveness is to hide their underlying insecurities. They'd also admit to that themselves, I think.

Oh yeah, big time. It's weird that in Ireland they seem to have this image as open, fun-loving extroverts who don't take themselves seriously. I think they may have been confused with Latin Americans along the way. The Spanish do like to party, but on the whole they're incredibly self-conscious, conservative, and they take themselves very seriously. I gave up even trying to do fun games or drama activities in my English classes like I do in every other country because they wouldn't join in. They are lovely people, but nothing like people back home seem to think they are.

WayneMolloy · 07-04-2013 11:21PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

There's plenty to criticise. The left-wing in Spain would be more critical than the right-wing. I can usually tell someone's political leanings by how open they to hearing criticism. I think it's healthy. No culture is perfect and if we can't criticise constructively and find ways to make changes, how can we ever develop as a culture?

I know you're not a fan of progressives or liberals so I know you won't agree.

Oh, I am open to constructive criticism of Irish culture. Its far, far from perfect. Over reliance on mind altering substances, littering, the influence the church still has, our infatuation with an teanga, the ah shure it will do or be grand attitude.

Absolutely, criticise away. But there is a major difference between criticising aspects of irish life and culture - to actually despising it and possessing a self loathing attitude.

One which Irish lefties have in abundance. So I cut them out of my life total.

Legs.Eleven · 07-04-2013 11:26PM

Halle Purring Slipper wrote: »

Oh yeah, big time. It's weird that in Ireland they seem to have this image as open, fun-loving extroverts who don't take themselves seriously. I think they may have been confused with Latin Americans along the way. The Spanish do like to party, but on the whole they're incredibly self-conscious, conservative, and they take themselves very seriously. I gave up even trying to do fun games or drama activities in my English classes like I do in every other country because they wouldn't join in. They are lovely people, but nothing like people back home seem to think they are.

I absolutely agree. As you said, the Spanish, on the whole, are lovely but everything you've said is completely true. The self-consciousness is pretty extreme, actually and it really surprised me. They hate to look ridiculous (sentido de ridiculo) but again, they've admitted that themselves. They're the ones who told me about it. Like you, I've given up a long time ago on role plays. Too many extremely uncomfortable situations where you have grown men and women going red in front of you. It's an aspect of Irish culture I really miss. We really can laugh at ourselves.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2013 11:28PM

Halle Purring Slipper wrote: »

Oh yeah, big time. It's weird that in Ireland they seem to have this image as open, fun-loving extroverts who don't take themselves seriously. I think they may have been confused with Latin Americans along the way. The Spanish do like to party, but on the whole they're incredibly self-conscious, conservative, and they take themselves very seriously. I gave up even trying to do fun games or drama activities in my English classes like I do in every other country because they wouldn't join in. They are lovely people, but nothing like people back home seem to think they are.

I found that with a Spanish mate of mine but I thought it could be just him. Interesting post!

Legs.Eleven · 07-04-2013 11:30PM

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Oh, I am open to constructive criticism of Irish culture. Its far, far from perfect. Over reliance on mind altering substances, littering, the influence the church still has, our infatuation with an teanga, the ah shure it will do or be grand attitude.

Absolutely, criticise away. But there is a major difference between criticising aspects of irish life and culture - to actually despising it and possessing a self loathing attitude.

One which Irish lefties have in abundance. So I cut them out of my life total.

Hasn't been my experience. I'd consider myself an Irish lefty as are most of my friends and family and we'd all love our country but see a lot wrong with it. I don't think self-loathing has a political leaning.

Da Shins Kelly · 07-04-2013 11:31PM

WayneMolloy wrote: »

You are hanging out with the wrong type of Irish people so!

Just out of interest - why were you surprised that the Spanish were nationalistic?

And here is me being even nosier again - whats the national mood like over there at present?

I was surprised because I never really thought it still existed to the extent that it does. I study over here and I take classes in Latin American Literature, and in the first class, the lecturer asked the class what they thought of the relationship between Spain and Latin America. Immediately the foreigners took a back seat for this one, and the Spanish students went for it. Everyone who spoke, bar one girl, said that the main feeling they felt when they thought of Latin American was pride - proud for discovering America in the first place and then for spreading the Spanish language and culture to that part of the world and finally for bringing Christianity. One girl said that she felt some embarrassment about Spain's colonial past, and she was laughed off by pretty much everyone, including the lecturer. I've also seen the nationalism rear its head with regards to Catalonia at times too, which has sometimes been pretty nasty.

As far as national mood, from what I've seen, a lot of complaining, occasional strikes, but there doesn't seem to be too much changing.

Fr D Maugire · 07-04-2013 11:33PM

Halle Purring Slipper wrote: »

This is the thing. The Spanish (I know I'm generalising) cannot stand anyone criticising their culture. They can give it out but they can't take it. They have no problem telling me that we're all drunks or that Irish food is crap, but if I mention anything remotely negative, they go mental. That's why I avoid the whole bullfight discussion, or any other discussion about Spanish culture. They ask me what I think but they really don't want to know. They want you to say what they want to hear.

I love Spain, but this is one thing that drives me mental.

In fairness, that would be a common trait to most countries. Most people do not like outsider's running down their own and we the Irish are just as bad.

I have had non Irish friends who are quite comfortable criticising Ireland around me but would never say anything negative in groups of Irish people.

Madam_X · 07-04-2013 11:34PM

mattjack wrote: »

Horrific behaviour , same as Waynes example .
In the context of the OPs first post can you really going see yourself ever having to experience/see this behaviour from cultural point of view.

I cant honestly ever see myself in a country that would stone another human being , likewise I doubt I'll ever be near a situation where a child is mutilated.

Stoning someone to death I wouldn't see as a cultural practice, it's a punitive one. However genital mutilation does seem to be a cultural practice.

Legs.Eleven · 07-04-2013 11:36PM

I think Nationalism in Spain is intrinsically linked to their political persuasion though. There was a anti-abortion protest yesterday in the centre of Madrid where obviously the majority of attendees would've been right-wing and people came with Spanish flags wearing Spanish paraphenalia. Nationalism is a dirty word among the left-wing.

07-04-2013 11:37PM

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

In fairness, that would be a common trait to most countries. Most people do not like outsider's running down their own and we the Irish are just as bad.

I have had non Irish friends who are quite comfortable criticising Ireland around me but would never say anything negative in groups of Irish people.

I think the Spanish are especially bad. Or perhaps it's the fact they're so quick to run down other cultures and people. I've no problem with patriotism, but don't run down my country and then get annoyed if I say something mildly negative, you know? They're the masters of being able to dish it out but not take it on this topic, I think, and I'm sure it does stem from the old inferiority complex.

Da Shins Kelly · 07-04-2013 11:38PM

WayneMolloy wrote: »

You are hanging out with the wrong type of Irish people so!

I don't think so. I don't have any self-loathing attitudes towards Ireland or my own Irishness, neither do any of my friends. But you do often hear a lot of people bitching about Ireland, even in the media, to an extent you don't really hear in other countries. This whole 'typical Ireland' :rolleyes: attitude or 'what will Germany/England/America/the neighbours think' preoccupation that a lot of people have too.

WayneMolloy · 07-04-2013 11:40PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I was surprised because I never really thought it still existed to the extent that it does. I study over here and I take classes in Latin American Literature, and in the first class, the lecturer asked the class what they thought of the relationship between Spain and Latin America. Immediately the foreigners took a back seat for this one, and the Spanish students went for it. Everyone who spoke, bar one girl, said that the main feeling they felt when they thought of Latin American was pride - proud for discovering America in the first place and then for spreading the Spanish language and culture to that part of the world and finally for bringing Christianity. One girl said that she felt some embarrassment about Spain's colonial past, and she was laughed off by pretty much everyone, including the lecturer. I've also seen the nationalism rear its head with regards to Catalonia at times too, which has sometimes been pretty nasty.

As far as national mood, from what I've seen, a lot of complaining, occasional strikes, but there doesn't seem to be too much changing.

Yeah - they havent been inflicted with colonial guilt like the brits have, for example. The south American immigrants get an awful time of it too. Poor buggers.

I have a serious gra for the place - one of my favourite countries in Europe. Their nationalism only endears me more. It is a dead concept in this country.

Legs.Eleven · 07-04-2013 11:46PM

Halle Purring Slipper wrote: »

I think the Spanish are especially bad. Or perhaps it's the fact they're so quick to run down other cultures and people. I've no problem with patriotism, but don't run down my country and then get annoyed if I say something mildly negative, you know? They're the masters of being able to dish it out but not take it on this topic, I think, and I'm sure it does stem from the old inferiority complex.

To be fair, I do think they'll criticise the country among themselves though. I've met many very frank and honest people in this country who've criticised aspects of their culture and collective characteristics. They just don't take it very well coming from foreigners.

Fr D Maugire · 07-04-2013 11:47PM

Halle Purring Slipper wrote: »

I think the Spanish are especially bad. Or perhaps it's the fact they're so quick to run down other cultures and people. I've no problem with patriotism, but don't run down my country and then get annoyed if I say something mildly negative, you know? They're the masters of being able to dish it out but not take it on this topic, I think, and I'm sure it does stem from the old inferiority complex.

And again, that is something common to almost every nationality. Perhaps the Spanish are worse(I have spent time there as well but didn't really notice) I don't know, we can all give examples of such behaviour from various nationalities, I found some Argentinians to be incredibly patriotic as if Argentina was the greatest place on earth. You didn't dare mention the huge gaps in standard of living there or Maradona cheating etc.

I remember when I lived in Sydney, I had a few room-mates from Dublin and all they did was talk about how **** Sydney was but thought Dublin was the greatest place ever. I think most people that have been to both places would place Sydney well ahead of Dublin in terms of somewhere to live.

WayneMolloy · 07-04-2013 11:51PM

Fr Dougal wrote:

I found some Argentinians to be incredibly patriotic as if Argentina was the greatest place on earth.

If you are a steak loving, single hetrosexual male with a decent paying job - they wouldnt be far wrong!:cool:

Da Shins Kelly · 07-04-2013 11:56PM

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Yeah - they havent been inflicted with colonial guilt like the brits have, for example. The south American immigrants get an awful time of it too. Poor buggers.

I have a serious gra for the place - one of my favourite countries in Europe. Their nationalism only endears me more. It is a dead concept in this country.

There are a lot of things I like about Spain, and a lot of things I really, really don't. I've witnessed a fair bit of racism since coming here, a lot worse than anything I've seen in Ireland, which is really, really ugly. It's a different kind of racism to what you see in Ireland too - in Ireland, I find, for the most part, it's ignorance more than anything else, over here I've found it a little bit more sinister, like a genuine dislike or distrust for people of different races. I've seen black people and Middle Eastern people refused entry into bars and nightclubs on the basis of their ethnicity, and people refusing to serve them in shops. One of my lecturers in college called black people 'monkeys' in class one day and was going on about how "disgusting" their skin is. :eek: It's one of the things that really puts me off the place.

WayneMolloy · 08-04-2013 12:01AM

Madam_X wrote: »

Stoning someone to death I wouldn't see as a cultural practice, it's a punitive one.

Thats a cop out. Only one culture practices this punitive measure. No prizes for guessing which. For a culture so concerned with 'honour' and 'ummah', for whole villages, including the girls family, to conspire together to stone a women to death - shows how backwards and savage that culture actually is.

Legs.Eleven · 08-04-2013 12:02AM

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

And again, that is something common to almost every nationality. Perhaps the Spanish are worse(I have spent time there as well but didn't really notice) I don't know, we can all give examples of such behaviour from various nationalities, I found some Argentinians to be incredibly patriotic as if Argentina was the greatest place on earth. You didn't dare mention the huge gaps in standard of living there or Maradona cheating etc.

I remember when I lived in Sydney, I had a few room-mates from Dublin and all they did was talk about how **** Sydney was but thought Dublin was the greatest place ever. I think most people that have been to both places would place Sydney well ahead of Dublin in terms of somewhere to live.

I think she's saying it's more extreme amongst the Spanish and I would agree.

Why were your room mates there is they hated it so much? Most Irish I know love the place. In fairness, you'd get plenty of Irish talking about what a hell hole Ireland is in comparison to their new adopted country. I've only ever found this attitude among Irish people.

steddyeddy · 08-04-2013 12:03AM

I have heard spanish girls slag irish girls by calling them "cold" and bad dressers before. On the second issue that's certainly the pot calling the kettle black :S

Respecting other cultures

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