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Hate Crime: Goths, Punks And Emos Recognised

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135

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    #62
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    I agree with this. However all attacks which target a group - deliberately targeting the old etc. should be hate crimes. That's a vulnerable group for sure. Which would make a lot of muggings hate crimes ( unless there was no violence, like grabbing a bag as opposed to threatening with a knife). It isn't that there is much hate there - it's opportunism - but the law is an ass if it protects the young and emo'ed and not the old and infirm.


    My "right wing" side likes this idea, as it will be the very scummers who the left defend who will be the cause of most hate crimes; my leftish/libertarian side likes it as people should be able to dress as they please.


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    #63
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    By giving harsher sentences for hate crimes, the intended effect is to discourage similar attacks from reoccuring.

    Give harsher sentences across the board so.


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    #64
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Ray Palmer wrote: »

    The guy I knew told me it was simply because I was a "hippy". It is certainly a worse crime to attack people randomly just because they aren't the same as you. There is nothing PC about it, it is being recognized for what it is.

    I don't agree. You can't call something random and at the same time postulate a (spurious) reason for it. A random attack on someone deserves the same punishment as one driven by some idiots dislike of your hair colour.


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    #65
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    LindowMan wrote: »
    A white, straight, Christian, non-goth, non-punk guy near my flat was unprovokedly attacked by a group of Asians a few years ago and slashed across the face with a knife.

    To be fair there have been Asians convicted of hate crime in the UK for attacks on white people. Racially-motivated attack in the UK is considered a hate-crime regardless of who the target is.

    So you're talking rubbish to be honest.


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    #66
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    FTA69 wrote: »
    To be fair there have been Asians convicted of hate crime in the UK for attacks on white people. Racially-motivated attack in the UK is considered a hate-crime regardless of who the target is.

    So you're talking rubbish to be honest.

    Two of the most prominent cases resulted in racially motivated murder convictions against Asian men:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ross_Parker

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kriss_Donald.

    Both cases generated controversy because the BBC had to apologise for under reporting them.

    I can see how people feel that these crimes are overlooked because they simply don't get the kind of media coverage that a murder like Stephen Lawrence did.


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    #67
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Both cases generated controversy because the BBC had to apologise for under reporting them.

    I can see how people feel that these crimes are overlooked because they simply don't get the kind of media coverage that a murder like Stephen Lawrence did.

    I fully agree with you there mate. But what your man was suggesting was that anti-hate crime legislation doesn't apply to white people when in reailty that's not the case at all and it's only scaremongering. In the eyes of UK law white people are as fully protected by this legislation as anyone else.

    The argument of hate crime against white people being overlooked is a bit of a different argument.


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    #68
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    FTA69 wrote: »
    I fully agree with you there mate. But what your man was suggesting was that anti-hate crime legislation doesn't apply to white people when in reailty that's not the case at all and it's only scaremongering. In the eyes of UK law white people are as fully protected by this legislation as anyone else.

    The argument of hate crime against white people being overlooked is a bit of a different argument.

    That's what I mean, when people don't hear it reported they assume it doesn't happen particularly when similiar cases concerning other races get a lot of media exposure.

    What he described happening to his friend was a hate crime in the UK and should have been treated as such by the police.


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mod

    LindowMan - re-reg troll - banned


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    #70
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,368 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I don't agree. You can't call something random and at the same time postulate a (spurious) reason for it. A random attack on someone deserves the same punishment as one driven by some idiots dislike of your hair colour.
    I don't agree with you and neither does the law. One place has now added to the list of possible hate attacks. It has been established in law in many countries adding a group is the only thing in question.

    I see it a legitimate grouping the same as being gay, black, Asian or Irish. Having been attacked for being in a subgroup and friends being attacked I see it as completely legitimate. There was gang of guys who specifically targeted goths going to the Grove on the northside of Dublin in the early 90s.


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    #71
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Having been attacked for what I looked like to me is different to being attacked for having a disagreement with somebody. I know lots of people attacked for how they dressed and also knew people who targeted people for the same reason.

    I was attacked by a gang of 5 people because I was a "hippy". Luckily one of the guys who attacked me realized he knew me and was in my class so he stopped it. The only reason they attacked me was I didn't look like their group. Pretty straight forward in terms of what can be defined as a hate crime.

    The guy I knew told me it was simply because I was a "hippy". It is certainly a worse crime to attack people randomly just because they aren't the same as you. There is nothing PC about it, it is being recognized for what it is.

    Been there, too, Ray. I've been attacked for the way I look and I can promise the doubters and the usual anti-pc suspects that the perps had nothing but hatred in their actions towards me and other mates.


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    #72
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    old hippy wrote: »
    Been there, too, Ray. I've been attacked for the way I look and I can promise the doubters and the usual anti-pc suspects that the perps had nothing but hatred in their actions towards me and other mates.

    Well , unless you are at a pill party, they are not gonna attack you with love, are they?

    Any attack on your person could be construed as a hate crime.


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    #73
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    Airitech wrote: »
    Two of the most prominent cases resulted in racially motivated murder convictions against Asian men:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ross_Parker

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kriss_Donald.

    Both cases generated controversy because the BBC had to apologise for under reporting them.

    I can see how people feel that these crimes are overlooked because they simply don't get the kind of media coverage that a murder like Stephen Lawrence did.

    An Irish lad was attacked and stabbed to death by a group of Asian chaps in Glasgow not so long ago.

    They were not charged with a hate crime. Now, if the roles were reversed.....

    http://www.donegaldaily.com/2012/01/16/donegal-man-stabbed-to-death-in-vicious-attack-in-glasgow/


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    #74
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Well , unless you are at a pill party, they are not gonna attack you with love, are they?

    Any attack on your person could be construed as a hate crime.

    In the same way that your xenephobic and baiting pronouncements on other threads could be construed as incitement to hatred, you mean?

    I don't go to pill parties, Wayne. I'm sure you can tell me all about them, though :rolleyes:


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    #75
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    old hippy wrote: »
    In the same way that your xenephobic and baiting pronouncements on other threads could be construed as incitement to hatred, you mean?

    I don't go to pill parties, Wayne. I'm sure you can tell me all about them, though :rolleyes:

    Maybe you should, might help you lighten up!


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    #76
    Kold
    Registered Users Posts: 12,778 ✭✭✭✭Kold


    Not sure I get the 'hate crime' thing. Surely the message should be 'you can't just attack someone' rather than 'you can't just attack someone because you dislike their subculture'.


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    #77
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    Kold wrote: »
    Not sure I get the 'hate crime' thing. Surely the message should be 'you can't just attack someone' rather than 'you can't just attack someone because you dislike their subculture'.

    Exactly. If someone attacks my person, I would be more concerned about the attack, not the rational behind it.


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    #78
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    LindowMan wrote: »
    Yet another case of PC gone mad.

    The real question is: how mad can PC go? If PC continues to go as mad as it's going I fear for PC...


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    #79
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    An Irish lad was attacked and stabbed to death by a group of Asian chaps in Glasgow not so long ago.

    They were not charged with a hate crime. Now, if the roles were reversed.....

    http://www.donegaldaily.com/2012/01/16/donegal-man-stabbed-to-death-in-vicious-attack-in-glasgow/

    From that article:


    But last night Strathclyde Police stressed they had still to establish the motive.

    Detectives said they could not rule out the possibility that the attack on William McKeeney, originally from Malin Head, was racially motivated but there was no evidence at this stage to suggest that it was.


    You have to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was racially motivated. In the two cases I linked they were able to do that.

    If the police and prosecutors don't do that properly even if they get a conviction it will get overturned on appeal and you will have these animals back on the street. It will make it harder to secure a similiar conviction then in the next case.


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    #80
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Maybe you should, might help you lighten up!

    Maybe you should lighten up, too. Threatening legal action because I call you up on your hatred is pretty lame.


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    #81
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    An Irish lad was attacked and stabbed to death by a group of Asian chaps in Glasgow not so long ago.

    They were not charged with a hate crime. Now, if the roles were reversed.....

    http://www.donegaldaily.com/2012/01/16/donegal-man-stabbed-to-death-in-vicious-attack-in-glasgow/

    But yet another white man was killed in Glasgow by Asians and they were tried under hate-crime legislation.

    So as usual your post is scaremongering b*llocks.


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    #82
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    FTA69 wrote: »
    But yet another white man was killed in Glasgow by Asians and they were tried under hate-crime legislation.

    So as usual your post is scaremongering b*llocks.

    Is it, yeah. Link?


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    #83
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Is it, yeah. Link?

    Why do you hijack threads and incite hatred against others, Wayne?

    Can you answer this or will you be threatening to serve me papers, again?


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    #84
    ahnowbrowncow
    Registered Users Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    old hippy wrote: »
    Why do you hijack threads and incite hatred against others, Wayne?

    Can you answer this or will you be threatening to serve me papers, again?

    You're just as guilty of hijacking this thread, let it go.


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    #85
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Is it, yeah. Link?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriss_Donald

    There. A white man who was murdered by Asians and the perpetrators were convicted of hate crime. This isn't a solitary example either by the way, so your notion that hate-crime legislation doesn't apply is, as I said earlier, b*llocks.


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    #86
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Kold wrote: »
    Not sure I get the 'hate crime' thing. Surely the message should be 'you can't just attack someone' rather than 'you can't just attack someone because you dislike their subculture'.

    I think many people completely misunderstand what a hate crime is, not just in this thread but in general.

    It's not just an attack on a person, think of it more like an act of terrorism to send a message to a particular group. I'll give you an idea of what I mean by that, look at James Byrd jr. he was beaten, urinated on, then chained to a truck and dragged to death. that's not just murder, the intention wasn't just to kill someone, it was to send a message: white supremacists wanted to create fear by killing someone of the african american community in an incredible grizzly way.


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    #87
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    Links234 wrote: »
    I think many people completely misunderstand what a hate crime is, not just in this thread but in general.

    It's not just an attack on a person, think of it more like an act of terrorism to send a message to a particular group. I'll give you an idea of what I mean by that, look at James Byrd jr. he was beaten, urinated on, then chained to a truck and dragged to death. that's not just murder, the intention wasn't just to kill someone, it was to send a message: white supremacists wanted to create fear by killing someone of the african american community in an incredible grizzly way.

    Given the type of person it would take to attack someone just because of the group they belong to, I think it's important mark it out as different from an assault that that had some kind of motive behind it.

    I think that someone who commits an assault on this basis is much more likely to reoffend than someone who gets into a fight over a personal grievance or perceived slight.

    In theory anyone could be a potential victim of the former so it's better if they spend more time off the streets.


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    #88
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Links234 wrote: »
    I think many people completely misunderstand what a hate crime is, not just in this thread but in general.

    It's not just an attack on a person, think of it more like an act of terrorism to send a message to a particular group. I'll give you an idea of what I mean by that, look at James Byrd jr. he was beaten, urinated on, then chained to a truck and dragged to death. that's not just murder, the intention wasn't just to kill someone, it was to send a message: white supremacists wanted to create fear by killing someone of the african american community in an incredible grizzly way.

    Even when it was the bears, I knew it was the immigants!

    Good explanation though, it makes more sense now.


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    #89
    orestes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭orestes


    Arttacking someone who happens to be gay/goth/asian/etc. for some reason (or even for no reason at all) is a crime.

    Attacking someone just because they are gay/goth/asian/etc. is a hate crime.

    The difference isn't the act itself, it's the motivation, which is taken into account in all crimes on a case by case basis to determine the severity of the crime. It's not PC gone mad, it's an extension of existing law to recognise the intentional persecution of a cultural minority, pretty straight-forward. Hate crimes are attacks on people for the sole reason of them being a member of a specific group, which are a way of saying "your type aren't welcome here", which as Links234 pointed out is pretty much an attempt at cultural terrorism.


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    #90
    loveisdivine
    Registered Users Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭loveisdivine


    I used to think that when you get to a certain age you grow out of picking on people for things like music taste or how they are dressed.
    I know I certainly did. A lot of people don't though. Sure, when me and my OH go out in town in the evening he will have "Jesus" yelled at him at least once. Just because he has long hair and a beard, people think that gives them the right to come up to him and start making jokes at his expense.
    Obviously it isn't as bad as people that resort to actual violence, but it can still be upsetting/annoying.
    I would never go up to someone in a burberry tracksuit and yell "chav!" in their face.


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    #91
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    So if a member of an ethnic minority attacks a member of the ethnic majority does it make sense to classify it as a hate crime? Is it possible to construe it as a signal that 95% of the population is nto welcome or should fear for their lives?

    I think the term 'hate crime' is a bit nebulous.


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