Hate Crime: Goths, Punks And Emos Recognised

Airitech

http://news.sky.com/story/1073632/hate-crime-goths-punks-and-emos-recognised

From the Sky News article:

Greater Manchester Police have become the first in the country to officially recognise hate crimes against goths, emos, punks and metallers.

Attacks on those who belong to alternative subcultures will now be recorded as a crime by GMP in the same way as disability, racist, religious, sexual orientation and transgender hate crime to provide better support to victims and repeat victims.

The move is a response to the 2007 killing of Sophie Lancaster, who was attacked by a mob for being a goth.


Greater Manchester Police say they recognise "alternative subculture" as a broad term to define a strong sense of collective identity and a set of group-specific values and tastes.

This typically centres on distinctive style, clothing, make-up, body art and music preference.


I think this is a move in the right direction. There is enough mindless violence against people solely because of perceived membership of some group to warrant a strong stance on this.

I have seen it enough in Ireland particularly when alcohol is involved. I'd like to see something similar here, but how wide ranging should it be and how should it affect sentencing?

Cookie_Monster

As long as we can still single out Hipsters I'm OK with this

Duggy747

That Sophie Lancaster case was sickening, scum of the earth those 2 little shìts were.

Gatling

Greater Manchester isn't a country

1ZRed

I notice a deliberate absence of hipsters on the list. Good stuff :pac:

Airitech

Gatling wrote: »

Greater Manchester isn't a country

Well yeah, what's your point?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

As long as we can still single out Hipsters I'm OK with this

No mention of United* fans either. Good stuff.



*Meant in jest, Mr./Ms. Moderator.

Airitech

1ZRed wrote: »

I notice a deliberate absence of hipsters on the list. Good stuff :pac:

This applies to any subculture so that probably covers hipsters too.

Kylo Ren

What about full kit ****?

Gatling

Couldn't see it working here being honest ,we can't prosecute normal crimes ,can't see a judge here giving any thought to they wore different colour clothes or hair is worth saying its a hate crime .actually its difficult to prosecute at best of times

Airitech

Keno 92 wrote: »

What about full kit ****?

Them too.

Airitech

Gatling wrote: »

Couldn't see it working here being honest ,we can't prosecute normal crimes ,can't see a judge here giving any thought to they wore different colour clothes or hair is worth saying its a hate crime .actually its difficult to prosecute at best of times

I suppose you would have to prove that someone was attacked solely because of the group they belonged to and no other reason.

Might be difficult to get it clear cut enough to allow it to affect the sentence.

1ZRed

Gatling wrote: »

Couldn't see it working here being honest ,we can't prosecute normal crimes ,can't see a judge here giving any thought to they wore different colour clothes or hair is worth saying its a hate crime .actually its difficult to prosecute at best of times

Not really. Gang targets group that doesn't conform or fall under what it is to be "normal" and mainstream and attacks them solely because of that.

Prosecution would seem fairly straight forward to me.

Gatling

Airitech wrote: »

I suppose you would have to prove that someone was attacked solely because of the group they belonged to and no other reason.

Might be difficult to get it clear cut enough to allow it to affect the sentence.

that's the problem ,did anybody see the story of the young with lad burned to death at his own birthday party after stripping and been scrawled with fag and queer on his body before been covered in sun oil and supposedly set on fire by accident he was openly gay and suffered from Asperger syndrome that couldn't be prosecuted as hate hate crime

Airitech

Gatling wrote: »

that's the problem ,did anybody see the story of the young with lad burned to death at his own birthday party after stripping and been scrawled with fag and queer on his body before been covered in sun oil and supposedly set on fire by accident he was openly gay and suffered from Asperger syndrome that couldn't be prosecuted as hate hate crime

Do you know why it wasn't prosecuted as a hate crime?

Gatling

Airitech wrote: »

Do you know why it wasn't prosecuted as a hate crime?

Ive no idea why it wasn't . me I believe it was
It was because you have to prove it is hatred ,not just another alcohol related assault from the start ,
I'm not against it but its not going to be a big issue here ,it will be explained as mindless violence

Ruudi_Mentari

Oldschool Goth/punk ftw. I think even original emo had it's merits?!

but is sad that its come to that. also if a person can't be into what they want its a big factor for suicide within the younger age group, had my suspicions about one or two here..

maybe it's part of an initiative to reintroduce diversity that had to be taken, because its too pc to nuke all chavs!

Gatling

Ruudi_Mentari wrote: »

Oldschool Goth/punk ftw. I think even original emo had it's merits?!

but is sad that its come to that. also if a person can't be into what they want its a big factor for suicide within the younger age group, had my suspicions about one or two here..

maybe it's part of an initiative to reintroduce diversity that had to be taken, because its too pc to nuke all chavs!

Proper Rocker's ftw

orestes

Sounds about right to me, fair play to them. Goths/emos/punks are constantly targeted by scummers, especially the teenagers, it's the usual bullying crap of anybody who is different that has been going on for years and it's good to see that a stance against that kind of sh1t is being taken on across the board. Abusing or attacking somebody just because of who they are or how they dress is disgusting and shouldn't be tolerated.

Anybody who says it's not the same thing because they choose to dress that way is completely missing the point.

There used to be a goth/industrial club in Dublin city called Dominion at the top of O Connell Street on Saturday nights in the basement of a bar. The same bar used to host a Celtic supporters night upstairs on Saturday nights. Pretty funny stuff, especially when the smoking ban came in and everyone had to smoke outside together. Weird thing was, after a while they all ended up friends. It started out like a high-school dance with goths on one side and Celtic jerseys on the other, but slowly through being around each other all the time, they got used to each other, started talking, and ended up as one big group of folks who got along really well. Even they realised how absurd it all was and it ended up being something that they all laughed about because they all knew how weird it must look to everyone else but at that point it was just normal to all of them. Don't know exactly why I'm telling that little story here, but it seemed relevant.

Duggy747 wrote: »

That Sophie Lancaster case was sickening, scum of the earth those 2 little shìts were.

It wasn't two, there were 5 of them in the attack. 2 were convicted for the murder of Sophie Lancaster and the other 3 were convicted for greivous bodily harm against her boyfriend Robert Maltby, he survived the attack but was in a coma for a while after it happened and was left with permenant brain damage.

Airitech

orestes wrote: »

Sounds about right to me, fair play to them. Goths/emos/punks are constantly targeted by scummers, especially the teenagers, it's the usual bullying crap of anybody who is different that has been going on for years and it's good to see that a stance against that kind of sh1t is being taken on across the board. Abusing or attacking somebody just because of who they are or how they dress is disgusting and shouldn't be tolerated.

Anybody who says it's not the same thing because they choose to dress that way is completely missing the point.

It should definitely add gravity to an assault if its proven that this was the motive, so the judge can hand down a heavier sentence.

Ruudi_Mentari

punk and gothic rock are very english thngs, too so its another example of globalization wiping out traditional organic local produce if you ask me

People gettin riled tere might be a solitary goth left in the neighborhood... probably actual "witch"hunts happening, identikit lynchmob knows no bounds

conorhal

Ruudi_Mentari wrote: »

punk and gothic rock are very english thngs, too so its another example of globalization wiping out traditional organic local produce if you ask me

People gettin riled tere might be a solitary goth left in the neighborhood... probably actual "witch"hunts happening, identikit lynchmob knows no bounds

There were plenty around here too. Growing up in the 80's there was a big punk commune around Dunlaoire and town was littered with Goths, rockers, and head-the-ball's of every variety.
For all the talk of how we live in the age of 'individuality' and how important self expression is in the internet age, I see far more conformity and group think today then I ever did under the 'repression of the Catholic Church'. It's seems that conformity is demanded of our new high priests also, consume! consume! consume is our new prayer!
It used to be that sub cultural trends were a bottom up phenomenon, but by the time 'heroin chic' had hit the catwalk even junkies has been appropriated by corporatist marketing departments. Today most subcultures are a branding exercise. The most vicious ire today seems reserved for those that stubbornly refuse to be ‘branded and marketed at’.

As for the suggestion that laws need to be passed to 'protect such subcultures', that's nonsense.
Threat and intimidation is a crime, assault is a crime, murder is a crime. There is no need to legislate for the special protection of any particular sub-culture, the attempt to do so is a mere deflection from the real problem, our streets are ruled by thugs who are not challenged by the law. This legislation is just another PR exercise to create an appearance of 'doing something' when in fact the government is doing the opposite.

seven_eleven

Ruudi_Mentari wrote: »

I think even original emo had it's merits?!

The emo wans were rides? :pac:

Kev_2012

HIPPIES!!! Everyone grows out of that phase(including myself), but the music is still unbelievable SLAYER!

But yeah, they do get an awful doing.

Richard Hillman

Do skangers count as a sub culture?

bb1234567

This is stupid because you choose to be goth,emo,punk,hipster etc. You dont choose what age,gender,ethnicity,race, social class, sexual orientation you are or if youre disabled. Religion, yes you can choose but a lot of people until they are an adult are forced to stick with the religion of their parents.

Lelantos

Is Rod Hull going to be prosecuted for constantly fisting his emo?

anncoates

Metallers must be one of the most stupid words ever coined..

gobnaitolunacy

Saw a fcuk load of emos in Brisbane, must be hard to stay pale and wear black leather trenchcoats and stuff what with all the sun.

LindowMan

Yet another case of PC gone mad.

LindowMan

Gatling wrote: »

Greater Manchester isn't a country

It does have a bigger population than some countries, though.

Delirium

LindowMan wrote: »

Yet another case of PC gone mad.

You think what happened to Sophie Lancaster and her boyfriend wasn't a hate crime?

LindowMan

koth wrote: »

You think what happened to Sophie Lancaster and her boyfriend wasn't a hate crime?

A white, straight, Christian, non-goth, non-punk guy near my flat was unprovokedly attacked by a group of Asians a few years ago and slashed across the face with a knife.

I'm still waiting for the police to make attacks against white, straight, Christian, non-goth, non-punk people being made into a hate crime, but I shan't hold my breath. They aren't a "persecuted minority" like Asians, blacks or punks.

I can't wait to see what GMP are going to class as a "hate crime" next. What about attacks on rappers, or people who dress up as Father Christmas?

Delirium

LindowMan wrote: »

A white guy near my flat was unprovokedly attacked by a group of Asians a few years ago and slashed across the face with a knife.

I'm still waiting for the police to make attacks against ordinary white people being made into a het crime, but I shan't hold my breath.

you didn't answer my question. any chance of getting a response to the question asked?

LindowMan

koth wrote: »

you didn't answer my question. any chance of getting a response to the question asked?

If someone attacked a man because he was dressed as Father Christmas, do you seriously propose that the police make attacking people dressed as Father Christmas a hate crime?

Because that is precisely what they have done regarding goths, punks and emos.

anncoates

koth wrote: »

You think what happened to Sophie Lancaster and her boyfriend wasn't a hate crime?

I think the problem with saying all horrible acts of violence are hate crimes gets you into a difficult position and it slightly cheapens the notion of hate crime, or at least dilutes it.

I mean, does that mean that a company dress code that doesn't allow you to wear so-called alternative clothes is a denial of human rights?

I'm happy enough with hate crimes being based on the normal, more serious criteria of sexual orientation, race, gender and other things that have a parallel in entrenched employment/social/legal prejudice.

Killing that poor kid is surely prosecutable in its own right as a horrible crime anyway.

That said, I can see the practical value of it too: a lot of bullying amongst young people is predicated on how people look so anything that further stigmatizes can't be all bad but teenage bullying based on clothes, as bad as it is, shouldn't be ranked with things such as organized homophobia or sexual assault.

Delirium

LindowMan wrote: »

If someone attacked a man because he was dressed as Father Christmas, do you seriously propose that the police make attacking people dressed as Father Christmas a hate crime?

If a sub-culture existed of Father Christmas costumed people in society and they were being targeted due to be being members of that culture, sure.

Because that is precisely what they have done regarding goths, punks and emos.

It's not equating like with like, as goths/punks/emos have an entire culture around them. And as seen by the murder of Sophie, there are attacks on them due to how they dress/being members of the scene.

LindowMan

koth wrote: »

If a sub-culture existed of Father Christmas costumed people in society and they were being targeted due to be being members of that culture, sure.

Why does it matter whether or not they are a part of that PC term "subculture"? If a guy is attacked for being dressed as Father Christmas then surely the police should make that a hate crime.

A white guy was attacked by a group of Asians a few years ago near where I live and slashed across the face, no doubt because he was white. But I have yet to hear GMP making attacks against white people a "hate crime". Yet it would be a "hate crime" had a group of white people slashed an Asian across the face.

And this term "hate crime" just groups attacks and makes certain attacks seem more serious than others. Why don't the cops just treat ALL attacks as seriously as each other? Making attacks on goths or emos a "hate crime", or attacks on homosexuals a "hate crime", makes it seem as though the cops see attacks on these "hate crime" groups as being less serious as those attacks on "non-hate crime" groups.

I don't like to think that the cops will treat an attack on a black, Muslim, handicapped, lesbian emo as being more serious than an attack on me.

anncoates

koth wrote: »

If a sub-culture existed of Father Christmas costumed people in society and they were being targeted due to be being members of that culture, sure.

It's a largely teenage culture that the adherents forget about within a few years.

I'm not sure women, people of transgender, ethnic minorities and so on have the option of growing out of it. :pac:

Lollipops23

LindowMan wrote: »

If someone attacked a man because he was dressed as Father Christmas, do you seriously propose that the police make attacking people dressed as Father Christmas a hate crime?

Because that is precisely what they have done regarding goths, punks and emos.

People who dress in goth/emo fashion do so as a form of self-expression and as part of their lifestyle. It's a recognised and large part of their identity within a subculture that they belong to. If you've ever studied anthropology/ cultural studies (I have studied the latter) you'd be aware of the importance of it.

I'm delighted they've added this to the list of hate crimes. I was a skateboard groupie type in my early-mid teens (baggy jeans, vest tops and lots of bracelets ) and was constantly harassed by other kids and called a "hippie" (I tried explaining the actual meaning of that word to them, it was lost).

Kids will always single out anyone slightly "different" or alternative in my experience.

Delirium

anncoates wrote: »

It's a largely teenage culture that the adherents forget about within a few years.

I'm not sure women, people of transgender, ethnic minorities and so on have the option of growing out of it. :pac:

Religion is also protected under the umbrella of a hate crime. It's a group/culture people opt into, why is that so different than what they're now doing with emo/punk/goth etc.?

And would it not be deserving of more protection considering as you claim it's mainly teens that are involved in the scene?

LindowMan

Lollipops23 wrote: »

People who dress in goth/emo fashion do so as a form of self-expression and as part of their lifestyle. It's a recognised and large part of their identity within a subculture that they belong to. If you've ever studied anthropology/ cultural studies (I have studied the latter) you'd be aware of the importance of it.

So what?

Why should an attack on an emo or a gay or an Asian or a Black be seen by the law as being more serious than an attack on anyone else?

LindowMan

koth wrote: »

Religion is also protected under the umbrella of a hate crime.

Unless you're Christian.

Allyall

bb1234567 wrote: »

This is stupid because you choose to be goth,emo,punk,hipster etc. You dont choose what age,gender,ethnicity,race, social class, sexual orientation you are or if youre disabled. Religion, yes you can choose but a lot of people until they are an adult are forced to stick with the religion of their parents.

I think that's why Greater Manchester Police are first in the UK to recognise these "extra" victims. All those mentioned in your post are already recognised..

anncoates wrote: »

Metallers must be one of the most stupid words ever coined..

And Emo and Hipster and all of the below (If they exist)

Greater Manchester Po-Po going to have a tougher time then they first thought if they include all of these..
http://www.buzzfeed.com/boomslang/37-different-personality-types-illustrated-and-bro-3gs4

Delirium

LindowMan wrote: »

Why does it matter whether or not they are a part of that PC term "subculture"? If a guy is attacked for being dressed as Father Christmas then surely the police should make that a hate crime.

A white guy was attacked by a group of Asians a few years ago near where I live and slashed across the face, no doubt because he was white. But I have yet to hear GMP making attacks against white people a "hate crime". Yet it would be a "hate crime" had a group of white people slashed an Asian across the face.

And this term "hate crime" just groups attacks and makes certain attacks seem more serious than others. Why don't the cops just treat ALL attacks as seriously as each other? Making attacks on goths or emos a "hate crime", or attacks on homosexuals a "hate crime", makes it seem as though the cops see attacks on these "hate crime" groups as being less serious as those attacks on "non-hate crime" groups.

I don't like to think that the cops will treat an attack on a black, Muslim, handicapped, lesbian emo as being more serious than an attack on me.

If the white guy was targeted because he was white, then it should be treated as a hate crime. I don't know if the area has a high incidence of Asians attacking white people because of their race. But if it's happening then it already falls under the umbrella of hate crimes.

Delirium

LindowMan wrote: »

Unless you're Christian.

Have you anything to back up that claim? Are Christians being attacked because of their faith and nothing is done about it? Any reports/news articles as examples?

starlings

anncoates wrote: »

I think the problem with saying all horrible acts of violence are hate crimes gets you into a difficult position and it slightly cheapens the notion of hate crime, or at least dilutes it.

I mean, does that mean that a company dress code that doesn't allow you to wear so-called alternative clothes is a denial of human rights?

I'm happy enough with hate crimes being based on the normal, more serious criteria of sexual orientation, race, gender and other things that have a parallel in entrenched employment/social/legal prejudice.

Killing that poor kid is surely prosecutable in its own right as a horrible crime anyway.

That said, I can see the practical value of it too: a lot of bullying amongst young people is predicated on how people look so anything that further stigmatizes can be all bad but teenage bullying based on clothes, as bad as it is, shouldn't be ranked with things such as organized homophobia or sexual assault.

It could be argued that ALL murders come from hatred - be it in fleeting anger and based on personal conflict, or because of a deep-seated hatred of a certain quality in the victim.

I remember a huge outcry after poor Sophie Lancaster was killed, and wonder if it was less to do with defending her right to free expression of taste in music and clothes, and more to do with the fact that she was a much-loved young person who was just walking in a park with her boyfriend. It's more sobering to think that anyone could be prey to such mindless and hateful violence than that it might be somehow provoked by superficial codes of dress and fandom.

Lollipops23

LindowMan wrote: »

So what?

Why should an attack on an emo or a gay or an Asian or a Black be seen by the law as being more serious than an attack on anyone else?

I don't think it's more serious, I just think it's categorizing the crime. The fact is, the attacker has targeted someone because of a non-imposing aspect of their personality: their colour, their creed, their membership of a cub culture. How do any of these factors invite an attack/murder?

I think it's important to be able to say "this man stabbed someone because he hated as aspect of their identity" as it speaks volumes about the attacker and it should be taken into consideration when sentencing.

anncoates

koth wrote: »

Religion is also protected under the umbrella of a hate crime. It's a group/culture people opt into, why is that so different than what they're now doing with emo/punk/goth etc.?

What happened to that girl is terrible beyond belief but are you really generally equating teenage bullying with the amount of lives lost under the aegis of dedicated religious persecution?

Gatling

Sophie Lancaster's death wasn't a hate crime no matter what spin you put on it ,
It was a senseless act of violence she and her boyfriend were not attacked for being goth ,
The boyfriend was set on after handing out smokes while chatting with a group of teens ,one of the main culprit's is autistic ,the 2 lads convicted of murder were already on a community order for a previous assault in the same park,

Hate crimes for teen subculture's for most part is just PC showboating

Delirium

anncoates wrote: »

What happened to that girl is terrible beyond belief but are you really generally equating teenage bullying with the amount of lives lost under the aegis of dedicated religious persecution?

Why should a person who is assaulted because they're Christian/Jewish/Muslim be regarded as a hate crime, but if it happens because they're an emo/punk/goth then it's not?

I wasn't attempting to suggest that what is happening regarding the emo/punk/goths had the same levels of violence/persecution. I'm just wondering why they should be treated differently is all.