Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

HondaSami · 28-03-2013 02:49PM

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

He makes a good point actually imo

sfwcork · 28-03-2013 02:51PM

wrote:

hawkelady

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

Good god what drivel

Do you think ireland is the bronx or what? so you think the public sector should get more cash? let the private sector cover it yeah

G Power · 28-03-2013 02:53PM

HondaSami wrote: »

He makes a good point actually imo

it makes me sick it has to be spelt out for some people!!

tayto lover · 28-03-2013 03:07PM

I believe that the Garda are suffering from the antiquated laws which prevent them from forming a Union like many other Police Forces enjoy.

I cannot see the reasons why such laws would remain in force here while other countries have moved on.
Maybe it's to prevent them having the same rights enjoyed by others.
I can think of no other valid reason which stands up.

JRant · 28-03-2013 03:09PM

aloyisious wrote: »

A walkout during your working hours at your place of employment, thus denying your services to your employer, would count as being akin to a strike. A walkout from a non-work event while off-duty can hardly be described as a withdrawal of service to your employer.

Now for the political aspect, Matty McGrath has stepped up to the mark with this in the Dáil:

FIONNAN SHEAHAN – 28 MARCH 2013

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter has been asked if he refused permission for Gardai protecting his home to use the toilet.

Independent TD Mattie McGrath claimed there has been a number of issues between the minister and Gardai on duty at his house in south county Dublin.

Mr McGrath said he was putting facts on the record and asked if the Gardai were refused the right to use the toilet at the house.

"Are they going to have to bring a commode to use outside your house?" he said.

Mr McGrath also criticised the Garda Commissioner, accusing him of being compromised, said the minister had a "petulance" against An Garda Siochana.

Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore said Mr McGrath was making a "personalised attack" on the Garda Commissioner.

"I think frankly that you should withdraw that," he said.

So who's going around being a little tattle tale then?

What business is it of McGraths whether a toilet was made available or not. It's a private residence at the end of the day. Not saying I agree with not allowing them use it but some people are very particular about their toilets, hence builders always have to provide their own portaloo when working in a house for any lenght of time.

It would seem the garda have more leaks than a teabag these days.

hawkelady · 28-03-2013 03:10PM

sfwcork wrote: »

Good god what drivel

Do you think ireland is the bronx or what? so you think the public sector should get more cash? let the private sector cover it yeah

What's wrong with the Bronx again??
It's bloody safer than some parts of Ireland.
Please read the thread title again and familiarise yourself with the topic.
It never entered my head what your spouting ie public/ private sector and issues with pay.
I had issues with the last one or two sentences from the previous poster about guards/ nurses/ firefighters not doing there job all the time. When something goes wrong or someone needs help they are the folk you call not some keyboard warrior spouting crap.

hawkelady · 28-03-2013 03:11PM

G Power wrote: »

it makes me sick it has to be spelt out for some people!!

Aw , little petal ... Hope you don't need a nurse for your sickness.

sfwcork · 28-03-2013 03:13PM

Im sorry but your saying that the bronx is safer than some parts of ireland?

rofl

are you actually serious?

JRant · 28-03-2013 03:16PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I believe that the Garda are suffering from the antiquated laws which prevent them from forming a Union like many other Police Forces enjoy.

I cannot see the reasons why such laws would remain in force here while other countries have moved on.
Maybe it's to prevent them having the same rights enjoyed by others.
I can think of no other valid reason which stands up.

Hi Tatyo, a quick question for ya.
If its not okay to compare the pay levels of AGS members to forces in other countries, why is it okay to start comparing their working conditions?

JRant · 28-03-2013 03:18PM

hawkelady wrote: »

Aw , little petal ... Hope you don't need a nurse for your sickness.

Strawman alert

omahaid · 28-03-2013 03:25PM

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

The usual old crap, we should be grateful that a Garda does what they are paid to do? Is that what you are saying? That they only help people who support their pay claims? Your post is probably the most idiotic crap I have read.

omahaid · 28-03-2013 03:26PM

hawkelady wrote: »

Aw , little petal ... Hope you don't need a nurse for your sickness.

You do know nurses are paid, don't you?

tayto lover · 28-03-2013 03:36PM

JRant wrote: »

Hi Tatyo, a quick question for ya.
If its not okay to compare the pay levels of AGS members to forces in other countries, why is it okay to start comparing their working conditions?

Because you can't compare like with like with what bang you get for your buck.
BUT you can have the same levels of human rights.
Unless of course you live in a Dictatorship and want to hide that fact.

VinLieger · 28-03-2013 03:47PM

The law against a union for gardai is ridiculously antiquated compared to other modern countries, it really is time it was scrapped

tayto lover · 28-03-2013 03:55PM

VinLieger wrote: »

The law against a union for gardai is ridiculously antiquated compared to other modern countries, it really is time it was scrapped

Article 23 Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 23. (3) and (4)

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

JRant · 28-03-2013 04:33PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Because you can't compare like with like with what bang you get for your buck.
BUT you can have the same levels of human rights.
Unless of course you live in a Dictatorship and want to hide that fact.

Ah now, thats streching it a bit wouldn't you say.
What human rights are they being denied unvoluntarly?

JRant · 28-03-2013 04:35PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Article 23 Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 23. (3) and (4)

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

3: Are you saying that they are being paid an inhuman amount?

4: They volunteraly give up this right to become members of the force.

VinLieger · 28-03-2013 04:38PM

JRant wrote: »

3: Are you saying that they are being paid an inhuman amount?

4: They volunteraly give up this right to become members of the force.

Almost certain you arent allowed ask someone to sign away a human right in a contract for a job, prove me wrong though if i am

JRant · 28-03-2013 04:54PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Almost certain you arent allowed ask someone to sign away a human right in a contract for a job, prove me wrong though if i am

Your the one making a claim, you back it up.

Mind you one that springs to mind straight away would be soldiers

SB2013 · 28-03-2013 04:57PM

JRant wrote: »

Your the one making a claim, you back it up.

Mind you one that springs to mind straight away would be soldiers

There is currently a case before the EU courts challenging this restriction. It was taken by the Belgian police.

tayto lover · 28-03-2013 04:57PM

JRant wrote: »

Ah now, thats streching it a bit wouldn't you say.
What human rights are they being denied unvoluntarly?

The right to form a Union.
The right to free speech and free expression.

seamus · 28-03-2013 05:03PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Almost certain you arent allowed ask someone to sign away a human right in a contract for a job, prove me wrong though if i am

I would imagine you are free to sign away your human rights if you wish. Informed consent and all that.

The UDHR really controls what may not be forcibly imposed on people. That said, any "signing away" of ones rights would always have include a method through which you can choose to reclaim those rights. In this case, by joining the national police force, one implicitly signs away their right to join a union. They can reclaim this right by leaving the force.

Freedom of speech is always a good example. It's on the UDHR, but we sign it away all the time in the form of NDAs or under data protection legislation.

tayto lover · 28-03-2013 05:03PM

JRant wrote: »

3: Are you saying that they are being paid an inhuman amount?

4: They volunteraly give up this right to become members of the force.

I don't believe they voluntarily gave up this right. It may have been a condition of employment but I believe it is not a fair and just condition and should not be expected from anyone. Can you volunteer to be downtrodden?

We have just had a Supreme Court case on the right to die and you cannot voluntarily give up the right to live.

Our Government can no longer expect people to volunteer to be silent and not to protest.

sparksfly · 28-03-2013 05:05PM

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

This is some bullsh1t as regards the cops.
Most of these guys can spend most of their time doing F-all, retiring a good 15 years before their private sector collegues on over 600euro pw while double jobbing as security staff and bus drivers etc.
If they closed down as many stations again and fired half of them they would not be missed.
As for nurses and firefigters, they are well paid for the work they do and should not demand any adoration from those who pay through the nose to keep the (often piss poor) service..

tayto lover · 28-03-2013 05:08PM

sparksfly wrote: »

This is some bullsh1t as regards the cops.
Most of these guys can spend most of their time doing F-all, retiring a good 15 years before their private sector collegues on over 600euro pw while double jobbing as security staff and bus drivers etc.
If they closed down as many stations again and fired half of them they would not be missed.
As for nurses and firefigters, they are well paid for the work they do and should not demand any adoration from those who pay through the nose to keep the (often piss poor) service..

Amazing the way I cannot detect even a small degree of bias about this post :rolleyes:

JRant · 28-03-2013 05:15PM

SB2013 wrote: »

There is currently a case before the EU courts challenging this restriction. It was taken by the Belgian police.

There is no guarantee that the case will be successful. Till then, nothing has changed and they still have to abide by the very rules they voluntarily signed up to.

tayto lover · 28-03-2013 05:20PM

JRant wrote: »

There is no guarantee that the case will be successful. Till then, nothing has changed and they still have to abide by the very rules they voluntarily signed up to.

That's my problem with the whole thing.

A Government that requires it's workers to relinquish rights in order to gain employment does not sit right with me.

I think our country would be far better with open discussion and equality regardless of where you work.
I never had any time for Sinn Fein but that Sec 31 lark forbidding their views from being aired or printed never say right with me at the time.

JRant · 28-03-2013 05:25PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't believe they voluntarily gave up this right. It may have been a condition of employment but I believe it is not a fair and just condition and should not be expected from anyone. Can you volunteer to be downtrodden?

We have just had a Supreme Court case on the right to die and you cannot voluntarily give up the right to live.

Our Government can no longer expect people to volunteer to be silent and not to protest.

So you agree then that they are not being inhumanly paid, glad to clear that up.

Okay, so your equating the right to die with the right to join a union, really?

The gardai are there to uphold the law, they have zero say in what the law is hence the separation of powers. So in a way yes they should be quiet and get on with the job, that by your own admission, they are well paid to do.

The Gardai also have no right to protest and this is well understood by every single member of the force. It's downright hypocritical of them to on one hand say "we were promised no more cuts" (which they were not) and then say their going to break a contract, they freely signed, to protest.

tayto lover · 28-03-2013 05:27PM

JRant wrote: »

So you agree then that they are not being inhumanly paid, glad to clear that up.

Okay, so your equating the right to die with the right to join a union, really?

The gardai are there to uphold the law, they have zero say in what the law is hence the separation of powers. So in a way yes they should be quiet and get on with the job, that by your own admission, they are well paid to do.

The Gardai also have no right to protest and this is well understood by every single member of the force. It's downright hypocritical of them to on one hand say "we were promised no more cuts" (which they were not) and then say their going to break a contract, they freely signed, to protest.

Ah no. That is not what I said at all.
Please don't twist my words.

I didn't comment on their pay at all. Only on their rights or lack of them.
Good try though

JRant · 28-03-2013 05:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

That's my problem with the whole thing.

A Government that requires it's workers to relinquish rights in order to gain employment does not sit right with me.

I think our country would be far better with open discussion and equality regardless of where you work.
I never had any time for Sinn Fein but that Sec 31 lark forbidding their views from being aired or printed never say right with me at the time.

There is no discussion to be had in AGS or the defence forces. Discipline is everything, orders have to be obeyed and the chain of command is king.
They are not like any other workers in the State, these people are often sent out into the public heavily armed.
Do you think for one second any dissent can be tolerated in such a position?

Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

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