Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

Boombastic · 27-03-2013 05:25PM

HondaSami wrote: »

No explanation needed.

The Gardai who walked out of the conference were members of AGSI who walked out of talks. I'm sensing a pattern here

HondaSami · 27-03-2013 05:26PM

Boombastic wrote: »

The Gardai who walked out of the conference were members of AGSI who walked out of talks. I'm sensing a pattern here

I thanked your post, i agreed with you, you are right i am wrong.

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 05:27PM

SB2013 wrote: »

i notice it doesn't mention discipline or loyalty as you previously stated. It's an oath to enforce the law, not to obey orders.

and part of the law is obeying orders - read the full act if you like , then read the constitution.

are you seriously suggesting that they can be ill disciplined and have no loyalty?
like it or not - they are tied to the law , and part of the law and oath is loyalty and obedience to the minister AKA shatter.

they know this and signed up to it

can we all now ignore contracts we have signed up to becasue it does not suit us anymore?

great , im penning a letter to tell my mortgage company to go swivel, my contract does not suit me, sure are the garda not going to do the same :rolleyes:

SB2013 · 27-03-2013 05:36PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

and part of the law is obeying orders - read the full act if you like , then read the constitution.

are you seriously suggesting that they can be ill disciplined and have no loyalty?
like it or not - they are tied to the law , and part of the law and oath is loyalty and obedience to the minister AKA shatter.

they know this and signed up to it

can we all now ignore contracts we have signed up to becasue it does not suit us anymore?

great , im penning a letter to tell my mortgage company to go swivel, my contract does not suit me, sure are the garda not going to do the same :rolleyes:

You seem to be formulating links that aren't there. What part of the law is obeying orders? Nothing in the oath about it either. The oath and the requirement to obey are not related. Obedience is a disciplinary matter.

You keep mentioning contracts as well. I already informed you that contracts work both ways. If one side frequently alters the terms of a contract it would be unreasonable to expect the other party to keep to it. If your mortgage company kept changing the amount and dates of your payments you wouldn't be long penning your letter to them.

You clearly know nothing about the law so why do you keep trying to use it in your argument? If you disagree that Gardaí should have a voice or be able to act in defence of themselves then that's fine, it's your opinion. But please stop trying to support it with stuff you quite clearly don't understand.

Fred Cohen · 27-03-2013 05:37PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

and part of the law is obeying orders - read the full act if you like , then read the constitution.

are you seriously suggesting that they can be ill disciplined and have no loyalty?
like it or not - they are tied to the law , and part of the law and oath is loyalty and obedience to the minister AKA shatter.

they know this and signed up to it

can we all now ignore contracts we have signed up to becasue it does not suit us anymore?

great , im penning a letter to tell my mortgage company to go swivel, my contract does not suit me, sure are the garda not going to do the same :rolleyes:

Strange post but isn't the problem that the Government is not honouring the contract they signed last year?

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 05:45PM

SB2013 wrote: »

You seem to be formulating links that aren't there. What part of the law is obeying orders? Nothing in the oath about it either. The oath and the requirement to obey are not related. Obedience is a disciplinary matter.

You keep mentioning contracts as well. I already informed you that contracts work both ways. If one side frequently alters the terms of a contract it would be unreasonable to expect the other party to keep to it. If your mortgage company kept changing the amount and dates of your payments you wouldn't be long penning your letter to them.

You clearly know nothing about the law so why do you keep trying to use it in your argument? If you disagree that Gardaí should have a voice or be able to act in defence of themselves then that's fine, it's your opinion. But please stop trying to support it with stuff you quite clearly don't understand.

yea - sorry but i have a firm grasp on this , as i have shown,
Obedience is a disciplinary matter - yes it is , and this is how this thread started - and the garda will be disciplined for walking out.

And in case you did not notice or read the full thread , i was expanding on a point a poster made, saying that garda should choose to ignore the law and their oath to suit them - then we got into talking about associations and unions,
its at this point i posted links and info to back up my point.

where is your proof to counter what i said ? you are just not understanding what is being discussed.

as for the contact , yes the mortgage company can and do change stuff all the time , rates and terms , and they can becasue i signed my contract allowing them to do this - as did the garda

you have also chosen to ignore the fact that repeatedly i have said i back the garda in their stance , they are getting a rough deal, and should have a voice
but the contract they signed does not allow this , neither does the garda act or the constitution, cant make it clearer or simpler than that

you have your opinion on this , but does not change the hard facts , but feel free to post some that prove me wrong - im big enough to take it when im wrong - but im not

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 05:47PM

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Strange post but isn't the problem that the Government is not honouring the contract they signed last year?

im pretty sure they can break it , but the garda cant , they can argue the case but in reality do very very little about it - and this in itself is a ****ty situation , but that is the way it is

SB2013 · 27-03-2013 06:16PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

yea - sorry but i have a firm grasp on this , as i have shown,
Obedience is a disciplinary matter - yes it is , and this is how this thread started - and the garda will be disciplined for walking out.

And in case you did not notice or read the full thread , i was expanding on a point a poster made, saying that garda should choose to ignore the law and their oath to suit them - then we got into talking about associations and unions,
its at this point i posted links and info to back up my point.

where is your proof to counter what i said ? you are just not understanding what is being discussed.

as for the contact , yes the mortgage company can and do change stuff all the time , rates and terms , and they can becasue i signed my contract allowing them to do this - as did the garda

you have also chosen to ignore the fact that repeatedly i have said i back the garda in their stance , they are getting a rough deal, and should have a voice
but the contract they signed does not allow this , neither does the garda act or the constitution, cant make it clearer or simpler than that

you have your opinion on this , but does not change the hard facts , but feel free to post some that prove me wrong - im big enough to take it when im wrong - but im not

You're still making links that aren't there. Your arguments are all over the place. Your links didn't back up what you said at all.

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 06:26PM

SB2013 wrote: »

You're still making links that aren't there. Your arguments are all over the place. Your links didn't back up what you said at all.

yes they did

you are not following what is being said

i was pointing out that they as a group can not strike because of the Garda act and the Constitution,
i was also pointing out the dangers of them doing so , and the reasons why it will be upheld by the dept of justice with a iron fist - and for good reasons ,
i also pointed out that they are the authors of their own misfortune by walking out of the talks

so , i have no idea where or how what i was saying is incorrect - its even common knowledge what i have said.

i think you may think i was directing my responses solely at you, and your points - but mine we at a few posters and general points as to the whole question of Garda rights and lack of them in this case.

i know i am right in what i have said - i think you are confused.

Fred Cohen · 27-03-2013 06:26PM

From RTE

The four are due to appear before an assistant commissioner at Garda Headquarters tomorrow and a disciplinary board is expected to be set up.

Amazing how quickly the commissioner can act on this given that we still don't know what happened with the Kieran Boylan scandal after how many years?

awec · 27-03-2013 06:29PM

VinLieger wrote: »

BEFORE TAX, with the USC and other taxes their real earnings are close to 50% of that, also does the fact that they put themselves at risk everday to protect us not give them the right to retire a bit early than everyone else?

Pretty much the same as every single other worker then, the ones who the usual suspects on here want taxed more.

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 06:32PM

Fred Cohen wrote: »

From RTE

Amazing how quickly the commissioner can act on this given that we still don't know what happened with the Kieran Boylan scandal after how many years?

True for ya

Shatter can more like lightning when it suits him
But its not un expected - they have to be seen to take a hard and fast line on this - if they dont they are lining up trouble down the road should this escalate

but this fact does not make them right - i bet Shatter was delighted to see the garda when his house got broken into during last summer.

G Power · 27-03-2013 06:57PM

Fred Cohen wrote: »

From RTE

Amazing how quickly the commissioner can act on this given that we still don't know what happened with the Kieran Boylan scandal after how many years?

he's just following orders and we're doing nothing to remind any of them who they work for!!

G Power · 27-03-2013 06:58PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

Shatter can more like lightning when it suits him
But its not un expected - they have to be seen to take a hard and fast line on this - if they dont they are lining up trouble down the road should this escalate

too late and it will only anger those with their own minds!! :pac::pac::pac:

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 07:01PM

G Power wrote: »

too late and it will only anger those with their own minds!! :pac::pac::pac:

yup
but that is why they are not allowed to take action - for this very reason,

you can not have a police force taking its own actions - and these actions going against the constitution.

it will be jumped on , and jumped on hard.
but i have my sympathy's with them.

end of the road · 27-03-2013 07:23PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

part of the job contract is no strike , 100% disciplined

no, their entitled to strike, contract or no contract, these no strike clauses should be illegal as they force people in to a situation where they have no other option but to put up with being screwed, if the majority or a large number of the guards go out theirs nothing the government can do.

dj jarvis wrote: »

but you CAN NOT have garda going on strike , walking away from talks or snubbing ministers

yes you can, and yes they should.

dj jarvis wrote: »

If they are unhappy with the pay and condition then leave the force

why should they? just because you probably aren't payed well and are stuck in a job that probably has low pay and working conditions doesn't mean they should have the same conditions, the private and the public sector are different, they will never be the same, nor should they be

dj jarvis wrote: »

the Defence forces would not and should not do this "blue flu"

agree

dj jarvis wrote: »

out of respect for the chain of command

the chain of command doesn't deserve any respect in this country

dj jarvis wrote: »

Sorry garda - but put up or shut up

how dare you tell them to put up and shut up when their being screwed left right and centre and having large numbers cut. just because your stuck in some crap job with little pay and have no choice doesn't mean everyone else should be the same as you.

dj jarvis wrote: »

you signed the contract

not to have large numbers of the force cut.

dj jarvis wrote: »

no point whinging about it now.

theirs every point whinjing about it and so they should, the whole lot should down tools and walk out

Chucky the tree · 27-03-2013 07:24PM

The old nazi excuse is a bit of cop out from the Gardas involved.

Fred Cohen · 27-03-2013 07:27PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

But its not un expected - they have to be seen to take a hard and fast line on this - if they dont they are lining up trouble down the road should this escalate

So in the commissioners mind, corruption (by whom it would be interesting to know) is not a priority but failure to tug the forelock and stay to listen to a politician spout horse****e is? And we as a people are happy to let him and the minister stay in vastly overpaid office while we punish sergeants for expressing an opinion? No wonder the country is in the state it's in.

Remember, the beatings will continue until morale improves.

dj jarvis wrote: »

i bet Shatter was delighted to see the garda when his house got broken into during last summer.

I'll bet his missus wasn't when see was done for drink driving a couple years ago.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shatters-wife-in-drinkdriving-ban-26709770.html

sfwcork · 27-03-2013 07:29PM

end of the road wrote: »

no, their entitled to strike, contract or no contract, these no strike clauses should be illegal as they force people in to a situation where they have no other option but to put up with being screwed, if the majority or a large number of the guards go out theirs nothing the government can do.

yes you can, and yes they should.

why should they? just because you probably aren't payed well and are stuck in a job that probably has low pay and working conditions doesn't mean they should have the same conditions, the private and the public sector are different, they will never be the same, nor should they be

agree

the chain of command doesn't deserve any respect in this country

how dare you tell them to put up and shut up when their being screwed left right and centre and having large numbers cut. just because your stuck in some crap job with little pay and have no choice doesn't mean everyone else should be the same as you.

not to have large numbers of the force cut.

theirs every point whinjing about it and so they should, the whole lot should down tools and walk out

You should do debating or toastmasters .its funny how you actually dont take any points but instead just insult the poster and assume the poster is in a low paid job

Boombastic · 27-03-2013 07:33PM

end of the road wrote: »

no, their entitled to strike, contract or no contract, these no strike clauses should be illegal ...................

They are not entitled to strike, see no strike clause you reference above

Dwork · 27-03-2013 07:35PM

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

The book should be thrown at them.

Part of being a Garda is remaining disciplined and not descending to the cheap tactics of the left.

Without discipline the force is nothing.

Hmm. Not much craic upholding the Law, dealing with scum, stress and horrors if it just isn't paying the bills. I'd be in agreement with the Sergeants. They can't by law go on strike, so this is a good way to show their dissatisfaction. If Joe Duffy is worth 300k, what value is placed on a Gard? I'd rate the Gard higher, and certainly more useful. I'm starting to think you might actually be Alan Shatter. You sound like him anyway.

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 07:36PM

end of the road wrote: »

no, their entitled to strike, contract or no contract, these no strike clauses should be illegal as they force people in to a situation where they have no other option but to put up with being screwed, if the majority or a large number of the guards go out theirs nothing the government can do.

yes you can, and yes they should.

why should they? just because you probably aren't payed well and are stuck in a job that probably has low pay and working conditions doesn't mean they should have the same conditions, the private and the public sector are different, they will never be the same, nor should they be

agree

the chain of command doesn't deserve any respect in this country

how dare you tell them to put up and shut up when their being screwed left right and centre and having large numbers cut. just because your stuck in some crap job with little pay and have no choice doesn't mean everyone else should be the same as you.

not to have large numbers of the force cut.

theirs every point whinjing about it and so they should, the whole lot should down tools and walk out

you type away - but as in the links i have posted , ie the garda act and the constitution,

they can not strike - read the thread.

as for the rest of your post - your points are just off the wall
you think what you want , but the country is run by the law and the constitution for a reason
the garda wont "rise up" for a good reason , they know what the end result will be.

but feel free to live in your fantasy world

if you actually really believe what you have posted then you have no idea how a democratic state works do you?
The Garda are historically well paid for the very reason that 1: the wont be tempted by crime and 2: they cant strike
they know this when they sign up - so sorry about your rant but that is just the fact of the matter

ignore it if you want - does not change a thing

sfwcork · 27-03-2013 07:38PM

Does anybody have stats or figures comparing irish force to the european counterparts?????

end of the road · 27-03-2013 07:38PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

it will be jumped on , and jumped on hard.

by who? the minister? he "jumps on them hard" and most likely he will make them more determined, if a large number of guards go out either on strike or on a blue flew theirs nothing he can do, the guards are being cut numbers wise but the minister isn't going to sack a large number of them on top of those leaving due to cuts. he may have "public support" from those who are in pittence paying private sector jobs but that won't matter when the effects of the cuts begin to bite. the whole lot of the public sector should down tools until their given the respect and pay they deserve and i'm not talking about management. the public sector don't need public support, their job like everyone else is to care about their own families

Big Davey · 27-03-2013 07:42PM

Sack them and any other public servant that does not do their job. Re hire with people from the live register who would appreciate a job with security and benefits.

Big Davey · 27-03-2013 07:44PM

sfwcork wrote: »

Does anybody have stats or figures comparing irish force to the european counterparts?????

The Irish lads and ladies drink more Guinness and eat more donuts in all other areas they are inferior.

end of the road · 27-03-2013 07:45PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

the garda wont "rise up" for a good reason , they know what the end result will be.

what will the end result be? large numbers sacked on top of the cuts? not going to happen, the minister and the government in general are unpopular for the guarda cuts even if they did get some public support for sacking striking guardai their still not going to do it as it would mean even less on the streets, the guards won't rise up now but it is going to get to a stage where enough will be enough and they will do something.

end of the road · 27-03-2013 07:48PM

Big Davey wrote: »

Sack them and any other public servant that does not do their job. Re hire with people from the live register who would appreciate a job with security and benefits.

and replace the current expertese with those who will probably be of a lower caliber and who will take little pay for a hard and unthanking job? no thanks the current lot are our guards for a reason and thats how it should stay

sfwcork · 27-03-2013 07:48PM

end of the road wrote: »

by who? the minister? he "jumps on them hard" and most likely he will make them more determined, if a large number of guards go out either on strike or on a blue flew theirs nothing he can do, the guards are being cut numbers wise but the minister isn't going to sack a large number of them on top of those leaving due to cuts. he may have "public support" from those who are in pittence paying private sector jobs but that won't matter when the effects of the cuts begin to bite. the whole lot of the public sector should down tools until their given the respect and pay they deserve and i'm not talking about management. the public sector don't need public support, their job like everyone else is to care about their own families

You seen obsessed with low paid jobs.do you think that because somebody is in a low paid job their opinion is less important?

tayto lover · 27-03-2013 07:50PM

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Do you understand why loyalty and discipline are essential in organisations like AGS and the DF?

Do you realize why the Garda Commissioner is on Shatter's side?
He is a political appointee chosen by Shatter and Co. Now he's hardly going to go against the Government is he?
Garda Commissioners should NOT be political appointees. It is just not right and akin to a Dictatorship.
Independent appointees only.

Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

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