Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Iwasfrozen · 20-03-2013 05:34PM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Should we all just speak Esperanto and be done with it?

If only. Imagine the whole world speaking one language. The human race connected. Perfect communication of ideas that renders borders pointless.

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 05:36PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Why is it anyone who doesn't want to learn irish must have been taught to hate it by someone? People are perfectly capable of forming their own opinion on a subject.

People who like irish were indoctrinated as a child. Told it was a good thing and must be learnt or youre a terrible person.

pure and utter ****e hated irish as a child now i am near fluent

Wibbs · 20-03-2013 05:42PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If only. Imagine the whole world speaking one language. The human race connected. Perfect communication of ideas that renders borders pointless.

God that would be awful IMH. We'd lose so much.

hooradiation · 20-03-2013 05:47PM

Wibbs wrote: »

God that would be awful IMH. We'd lose so much.

Indeed, for a start Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansen would never have got to work together.

oh. The horror.

Iwasfrozen · 20-03-2013 05:51PM

Wibbs wrote: »

God that would be awful IMH. We'd lose so much.

Hardly, the other languages wouldn't just disappear. But now any two people in the whole world could communicate without the need for a mediator.

starlings · 20-03-2013 06:06PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hardly, the other languages wouldn't just disappear. But now any two people in the whole world could communicate without the need for a mediator.

well, look what happened with the Babelfish!

PopePalpatine · 20-03-2013 06:44PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Ehh so it's dem iimmmigrints then? Ohh jeebus We've crossed the Rubicon folks.:D "quality of debate"? eh. No really I've asked before what's "irony" as Gaelige?

My auntie gets her knickers in a twist and rants about "it's our culture" whenever I bring up making Irish optional. And just like Coles, she likes to blame immigrants for a lot too!

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 07:11PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

My auntie gets her knickers in a twist and rants about "it's our culture" whenever I bring up making Irish optional. And just like Coles, she likes to blame immigrants for a lot too!

funny its mostly english speaking racists i know most people I know who speak irish are more foward thinking and of the lefty sort

not saying no racists speak irish just countering the idea that pro gaeilge = some how backwards which is the prevalent theme on this thread

marienbad · 20-03-2013 07:15PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

funny its mostly english speaking racists i know most people I know who speak irish are more foward thinking and of the lefty sort

not saying no racists speak irish just countering the idea that pro gaeilge = some how backwards which is the prevalent theme on this thread

Can you show me even a couple of post numbers that have equated pro gaeilge with being backwards ?

I just hate this dogwhistling kind of debate.

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 07:21PM

marienbad wrote: »

Can you show me even a couple of post numbers that have equated pro gaeilge with being backwards ?

I just hate this dogwhistling kind of debate.

the constant referral to it being a backwards language maybe

Lord TSC · 20-03-2013 07:23PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

the constant referral to it being a backwards language maybe

Who has referred to it being backwards? And definitely show me where racism, of all things, is taking place :S

shruikan2553 · 20-03-2013 07:25PM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Wow... the irony in your post is striking...

You say people are can form their own opinions but then you say that people who disagree with your opinions on Irish must have been indoctrinated.. You simply reversed the argument that you disagreed with. Your hypocrisy is absurd.:rolleyes:

I was an average student when it came to Irish.. I'm not fluent nor am I obsessed with pushing the language on people. In school I used to skip Irish class all the time.

It was only when I traveled that I opened my mind. I went on Erasmus to Belgium many years ago and managed to speak both Flemish and French quite well(even though many Belgians have fantastic English), last year I went to South Korea for a few months and learned enough Korean to impress manys a local (their alphabet is actually kinda easy!).

I'm currently learning Spanish and I wish to re-learn Irish. Maybe I simply like languages and I realised the importance of languages in general.

If it is indoctrination to encourage young people to like Irish, then isn't teaching them to appreciate English also indoctrination? Should we all just speak Esperanto and be done with it?

Or what about Chinese.. China is the future so let's scrap all other languages so we can get jobs.:D

It was sarcasm towards the arguement that people who dont learn irish have a "bad attitude" that keeps coming up by certain people because we should all love the great mother language and speak it all the time.

marienbad · 20-03-2013 07:32PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

the constant referral to it being a backwards language maybe

even a few post numbers please , put up or shut up.

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 07:38PM

Gambas wrote: »

the culture of an Ireland that never existed.

tries to say gaeilge was never widley spoken thats pure bullshít

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

It is backwards and useless.

explain how thats not calling it backwards

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Irish simply cannot survive on its own merits as a language irrespective of its part in "our culture"..

saying it is the failing of the language (an inanimate object) is based on the language alone implies that it is not "modern" ie backwards

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

To imply that there is only a single true culture on the island

no one said that I personally favor multiculturalism but to say the language is not key to the story of ireland is revisionist history of the worst kind

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

A dead and useless language

again calling it useless and trying to consign it to the past

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

it must modernise.

now I agree it was?is thought wrong but the language itself continuously evolves

happy now this was all within a few pages the thread is full of this sort of thing

marienbad · 20-03-2013 07:46PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

tries to say gaeilge was never widley spoken thats pure bullshít

explain how thats not calling it backwards

saying it is the failing of the language (an inanimate object) is based on the language alone implies that it is not "modern" ie backwards

no one said that I personally favor multiculturalism but to say the language is not key to the story of ireland is revisionist history of the worst kind

again calling it useless and trying to consign it to the past

now I agree it was?is thought wrong but the language itself continuously evolves

You must be joking if you consider this proof of anything. Only 2 of the above excerpts fall into the catagory you describe and that is without even seeing the context in which they were used .

Post numbers please and let us see the complete post on those two. All the rest are valid points of view and that is again without seeing the full content.

I think the problem may be that some supporters of the language are simply unable to handle any form of robust debate.

starlings · 20-03-2013 07:53PM

marienbad wrote: »

Post numbers please and let us see the complete post on those two. All the rest are valid points of view and that is again without seeing the full content.

I think the problem may be that some supporters of the language are simply unable to handle any form of robust debate.

There's a little blue arrow to the right of the username in the quoted posts. Click that and you can read the posts in their original context.

tá fáilte romhat.

Lord TSC · 20-03-2013 07:57PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

tries to say gaeilge was never widley spoken thats pure bullshít

Agreed, but that's neither calling it backwards or racist.

explain how thats not calling it backwards

In this case, he shouldn't call it backwards. However, as far as I can tell, it's someone who isn't even engaging in the actual debate all that much....taking the post of one person who isn't engaging on a large scale is poor debating.

saying it is the failing of the language (an inanimate object) is based on the language alone implies that it is not "modern" ie backwards

Implying something is modern is not the same as implying everything else is backwards. Not modern =/= backwards. History deals with things that are not modern, but I wouldn't argue anyone who studies it as a subject is backwards thinking. YOU are inferring things of your own volition here.

no one said that I personally favor multiculturalism but to say the language is not key to the story of ireland is revisionist history of the worst kind

But it's NOT key to the story of Ireland. It's only a single part of the story. It's not the most important aspect of Ireland's history by any stretch. Again though, this does not imply backwardness or racism...

again calling it useless and trying to consign it to the past

To be blunt, that's an opinion with plenty to back it up. Rather than get ***** with people for saying a language's usefulness is limited, try to prove to us why it's useful. This goes back to something I posted before that Coles ignored; instead of telling us it is useful and has a purpose, tell us WHY it is useful and how it has a purpose.

Now, none of that proves racism in the slightest, and I'd adore to see you try and show how some people were racist. if anything, my side of the debate aren't throwing around terms like "West Brit" and telling people who disagree with them to **** off out of the country...

marienbad · 20-03-2013 08:10PM

starlings wrote: »

There's a little blue arrow to the right of the username in the quoted posts. Click that and you can read the posts in their original context.

tá fáilte romhat.

Jeez, after 2600 posts and I am only learning that now ! I must be ''backwards'' . If I had a gun I would be dangerous. Thank you starlings.

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 08:14PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Now, none of that proves racism in the slightest, and I'd adore to see you try and show how some people were racist. if anything, my side of the debate aren't throwing around terms like "West Brit" and telling people who disagree with them to **** off out of the country...

when did i mention racism (except in a light hearted analogy)? I never called anyone a west brit.
I'm all for debate so Ill ask you why should the native language (as in originated here) be consigned to the scrap heap

that long post was not simply a reply to you I decided it would be worth pointing out a few misconception on your side of the debate

surely you can appreciate the right to native gaelic culture (if i call it irish ye'll kill me so that'll have to do) in a modern multicultural society

starlings · 20-03-2013 08:16PM

marienbad wrote: »

Jeez, after 2600 posts and I am only learning that now ! I must be ''backwards'' . If I had a gun I would be dangerous. Thank you starlings.

as far as I'm concerned, the ability to admit you don't know something always wins the day in any argument. It's a rare and wonderful thing. Meas mór marienbad!

marienbad · 20-03-2013 08:26PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

when did i mention racism (except in a light hearted analogy)? I never called anyone a west brit.
I'm all for debate so Ill ask you why should the native language (as in originated here) be consigned to the scrap heap

that long post was not simply a reply to you I decided it would be worth pointing out a few misconception on your side of the debate

surely you can appreciate the right to native gaelic culture (if i call it irish ye'll kill me so that'll have to do) in a modern multicultural society

Look the first thing you can do is to lose the poor mouth chip on the shoulder attitude , you can call it what you like.

The fact is the single biggest drawback to saving the Irish language is the people that are responsible for doing so , and this is the case throughout the history of this state.

And why is this so - because the language have been weighed down with so much baggage that even if Shakespeare Tolstoy and Proust were native speakers it would not have been enough to ensure its survival.

The airwaves today are filled with talk of failed bankers still getting massive salaries and they are right. It is the ''failed'' is the key thing.

Same with the language- the same failed organisations people policies that allways ran it are still running it, plus ca change,plus c'est la meme chose .

c_man · 20-03-2013 08:27PM

Gambas wrote: »

Aside from Dingle there isn't a single place in any Gaeltacht I can think of where the 'English' name isn't a phonetic spelling of the Irish name.

Claregalway, all 'Irish' (the quotes apply there also right?) signs have 'Baile Chláir' up.

I know you're going to come back that that's short for 'Baile Chláir na Gallimhe' but that's not what's up anywhere.

starlings · 20-03-2013 08:33PM

Gambas wrote: »

Aside from Dingle there isn't a single place in any Gaeltacht I can think of where the 'English' name isn't a phonetic spelling of the Irish name. Tourists seem to manage fine. Our propensity for having sign posts that point the wrong way and generally poor signage seems to annoy them though.

c_man wrote: »

Claregalway, all 'Irish' (the quotes apply there also right?) signs have 'Baile Chláir' up.

I know you're going to come back that that's short for 'Baile Chláir na Gallimhe' but that's not what's up anywhere.

This could turn into an "i before e except after c" rule.

Sraith Salach / Recess

Coles · 20-03-2013 08:38PM

vincit qui se vincit wrote: »

The hatred from the anti-Irish crowd here brings chip-on-shoulder underclass rantings to another level. It's simply a thread for ranting and raving against something, anything, that doesn't fit into their culturally intolerant perception of Ireland.

It's extraordinary. An irrational, fanatical and zealous mix of mob rule and cultural fascism which amounts to at least an insistence that Irish speaking taxpayers should be forced to accept English in their dealings with the Irish state which they help finance.

If the level of unadulterated hatred expressed here against Irish speakers were expressed against Blacks or another group, the thread would have been closed long ago and bans handed out. Personally, I'd favour current 'Incitement to Hatred' legislation being extended to include people who produce such degrading, dehumanising bile against Irish speakers who merely assert their rights to equal treatment under Irish and international law as an indigenous linguistic community in Ireland. It's not long ago since Irish speakers were imprisoned for refusing to finance English language radio and TV by a state which refused to provide them with Irish language stations.

As for waste of money, I'm not happy about my taxes financing the back roads, footpaths, parks and so on ad infinitum which the anti-Irish people here walk on and from which I get no benefit. I'll go further, I believe all my taxes were unjustly taken from me if they were spent on the education of people who offer little but hatred and far right ideas about a language which I'm educated enough to love. Imagine that, my taxes going towards something I derive no benefit from. I must rant incessantly about that in all sorts of ways and bring out my miserable, pathetic life upon some scapegoat for my own failings ....

+1. Good post.

Coles · 20-03-2013 08:42PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't speak Irish, and have the same experience of school Irish as many on here.

However, I disagree that it should not be a mantatory language. It is part of our culture, a part we should be proud of. The fact that it is not 'useful' in international business, surely that is not the only reason for learning?

Should all other languages just accept that English and Chinese are now the only ones that really matter?

Our language is part what helps to sets us apart, I have no issue with people wanting to learn and use the language, but I don't think I should be made feel any less 'Irish' because I don't speak it.

I believe that it should be taught differently, try to move away from the learning of poems that I had to do (we rewrote them in English and learned some lines by heart in Irish!), and instead teach like we do with Spanish etc. Teach people how to order a coffee, hold a short conversation, ask for directions. Certainly I always get the impression that you are looked down on for not knowing Irish and it is your job to catch up to the right level.

With the rise in Gaelscoil etc, I think many people do see the value in the language, if nothing else then from our own sense of uniqueness. But it needs to be more inclusive. This Gaeltacht idea of only Irish is selfish and elitist and does nothing to help the language.

On the OP question, not sure about scraping the role but as far as I can tell the current holder oes not seem to be bringing much new to the table and therefore should be gotten rid of.

+1 Good post.

opti0nal · 20-03-2013 08:45PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

I'm all for debate so Ill ask you why should the native language (as in originated here) be consigned to the scrap heap

I think you mean 'indigenous'. It's not the native language of most of the population. There is no need to debate this as nobody is proposing consigning Irish to the 'scrap heap'.

laoch na mona wrote: »

surely you can appreciate the right to native gaelic culture (if i call it irish ye'll kill me so that'll have to do) in a modern multicultural society

Nobody should have the to right to impose 'native gaelic culture' on others.

By passing laws forcing people to use Irish, by imposing compulsory Irish lessons on innocent schoolchildren and by appointing an enforcement officer who can put people in jail for non-compliance, the Irish lobby has demonstrated that it has lost the hearts and minds of the people.

If you want Irish to live, abolish the OLA and the language commissars in Spiddel.

Lord TSC · 20-03-2013 08:47PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

when did i mention racism (except in a light hearted analogy)? I never called anyone a west brit.

Word of warning; "light hearted analogies" don't easily come accross as such on line. In text form, it's very, VERY easy for sarcasm to come accross dead serious. Likewise, much as your responses were in general rather than specific to me, so too was mine in general about people on your side of the debate.

I'm all for debate so Ill ask you why should the native language (as in originated here) be consigned to the scrap heap

It shouldn't. The vast majority of people don't argue that at all.

We simply argue that if you want to keep it alive, then you should. Meanwhile, if I see no use for it, it shouldn't be forced on me. It shouldn't be forced on the entire country via compulsion in schools and crazy amounts of money on jobs and training which amounts to nothing in the long run. It should be kept alive by those who want to keep it alive, and I'd personally hate to see it die out. I simply don't want it forced on me. There's a distinction there, even if some people would prefer to misrepresent my side of the arguement as being founded on a non-existant hatred...

surely you can appreciate the right to native gaelic culture (if i call it irish ye'll kill me so that'll have to do) in a modern multicultural society

I surely can. But in the same way I won't force my cultural identity on you, nor should you try and force it on me. If you want the language to remain part of your cultural identity, then you should be more than allowed to do it, and fair play to you. It's not backwards thinking at all, no more than how my studies of philosophy or older English texts in University were backwards thinking either. You just shouldn't expect me to take kindly to the fact you're side of things wants to force your version of culture onto me, regardless of my desires.

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 08:59PM

[QUOTE=marienbad;83753390]Look the first thing you can do is to lose the poor mouth chip on the shoulder attitude , you can call it what you like.

The fact is the single biggest drawback to saving the Irish language is the people that are responsible for doing so , and this is the case throughout the history of this state.

And why is this so - because the language have been weighed down with so much baggage that even if Shakespeare Tolstoy and Proust were native speakers it would not have been enough to ensure its survival.

The airwaves today are filled with talk of failed bankers still getting massive salaries and they are right. It is the ''failed'' is the key thing.

Same with the language- the same failed organisations people policies that allways ran it are still running it, plus ca change,plus c'est la meme chose .[/QUOTE]

the bad attitude is in your head i have been perfectly civil and will continue to be

I agree that they went about it the wrong way and quickly gave up trying to bring it back in a real sense
but the crux of the matter is why should we give it up we haven't abandoned neo-liberal economics because of the recession so why abandon a perfectly good language because of bad policy

Lord TSC · 20-03-2013 09:01PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

but the crux of the matter is why should we give it up

You shouldn't.

You just shouldn't force it on us.

Iwasfrozen · 20-03-2013 09:03PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

but the crux of the matter is why should we give it up we haven't abandoned neo-liberal economics because of the recession so why abandon a perfectly good language because of bad policy

We didn't abandon it because it was never ours to begin with. And that's what proponents like you fail to understand.

Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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