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Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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Comments

  • #542
    Coles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Coles


    'Jaysus. Dey bet the Irish into him and dey bet the English out. If only dad didn't have to learn de Irish he could have been a doctor.'

    He passed on a pretty bad attitude towards the language to you, didn't he? Thankfully there are no more beatings in school for any subject. And did he get beaten for not writing English? For not doing his exercises and his homework? I suspect so because I can't imagine why he wouldn't have. Perhaps Irish isn't actually to blame, but rather a form of dyslexia? It's quite common. And just so that you know - Dyslexia is not 'being a retard'.


  • #543
    Mick ah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭Mick ah


    Coles wrote: »
    'Jaysus. Dey bet the Irish into him and dey bet the English out. If only dad didn't have to learn de Irish he could have been a doctor.'

    He passed on a pretty bad attitude towards the language to you, didn't he? Thankfully there are no more beatings in school for any subject. And did he get beaten for not writing English? For not doing his exercises and his homework? I suspect so because I can't imagine why he wouldn't have. Perhaps Irish isn't actually to blame, but rather a form of dyslexia? It's quite common. And just so that you know - Dyslexia is not 'being a retard'.


    At no point did I say the man was my father.

    My own father passed on no such bad attitude. I quickly came to resent being forced to learn something I viewed (and still view) as pointless all on my own. My father did nothing but encourage me to apply myself to all aspects of my study. I was naturally gifted in school, good at mathematics and languages (when I wanted), my German you see is very good. I did an excellent leaving cert. Irish was my only pass subject.

    I only wish I'd done what a class mate had done. He simply stopped doing Irish during the leaving cycle. Didn't show up for the exam. And guess what, there were no repercussions. It wasn't printed on his leaving cert results, and it didn't effect him getting into Trinity to do science (you know, something actually relevant to his life). All that time he saved not rote learning shíte about irrelevant poetry and memorizing essays.

    You bring up dyslexia, however today that is grounds for an exemption from learning Irish in secondary school.

    But you didn't address my point Coles. They spent plenty of time teaching him Irish. Which for him was totally useless. His time in school would have been better spent learning how to better communicate in his first (and only) language, the language of his city, and the language that 99.9% of his people can effectively communicate in. It would have benefited him greatly. Instead he's just another statistic (or should I say victim?) in a political game.

    Do you not agree Coles, that the time would have been better spent not teaching him Irish (and not to derail the thread) religion? That a better use of the time would have been to focus on English.


  • #544
    Coles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Coles


    Mick ah wrote: »
    ...focus on English.
    English what? English poetry? If a child can't read and write at the age of 8 then there's more of an issue that all the English poetry in the world won't solve.


  • #545
    Mick ah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭Mick ah


    Coles wrote: »
    English what? English poetry? If a child can't read and write at the age of 8 then there's more of an issue that all the English poetry in the world won't solve.

    School in the 50s and early 60s was different. And even though I'm only relatively recently out of school, I don't remember doing any English poetry in primary school.

    You've avoided the point yet again. But to use your logic, all the Irish in the world wouldn't solve the issue either.


  • #546
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Coles wrote:
    What else can it be? If it was the teachers or the curriculum or the methodology it would have been fixed by now! Seriously.
    Hahahahahaha... oh wait... you're being serious?:eek: Even the most hard headed on either side of this debate will agree that the teaching of the language is seriously flawed and has been for generations. I'd go so far as to argue the teaching of english is seriously flawed too, flaws largely masked by the fact it is our "native" language in practical terms(I learned more about nouns, verbs adverbs etc in Latin and French than I did in English class). Irish is "taught" in a way that assumes a natural affinity with the language. People saying they learned more French and German or whatever in school, likely did so because n top of them being seen as more "useful", they were taught as foreign languages. A step too far to admit for many Gaelgoiri it seems, but a necessary step if we want more people gaining fluency in the language.
    Mick ah wrote: »
    Literacy isn't (by and large) a problem on the same scale as before, so I'm not going to argue that point.
    Actually Mick, while it got better in the last couple of generations, it's started to get bad again. "According to the last international survey, one in four or 25% of Irish adults have literacy difficulties. This compares with 3% in Sweden and 5% in Germany." Another report I read recently showed that the same one in four stat is going on among 16 year old males in current education. That's a scary stat.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • #547
    Coles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Coles


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Hahahahahaha...

    Actually Mick, while it got better in the last couple of generations, it's started to get bad again. "According to the last international survey, one in four or 25% of Irish adults have literacy difficulties. This compares with 3% in Sweden and 5% in Germany." Another report I read recently showed that the same one in four stat is going on among 16 year old males in current education. That's a scary stat.
    Perhaps the 25% figure in influenced by the large number of Eastern European migrants who arrived over the recent years?:)


  • #548
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,160 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Coles wrote: »
    What else can it be? If it was the teachers or the curriculum or the methodology it would have been fixed by now! Seriously.

    Incidently, I've never come across a discussion about people hating French or wanting it banned.

    The problem here is theres a complete disconnect in how irish is taught compared to how french or any other foreign language is taught. They arent compulsory so pupils need to be encouraged to learn them and are continually shown how useful they will be. Im not gonna get into the argument about whether irish is useful or not but the fact its compulsory means its not being "sold" anymore its simply there and people like you are happy to leave it like that and ignore the massive problem in front of you that people simply dont care, not because of a resentment being passed down but because of an apathy from people like you who think as long as its compulsory that that should be all thats needed to revive it and have people interested


  • #549
    Coles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Coles


    @Wibbs, why don't I get any 'Thanks'? :confused:


  • #550
    Mick ah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭Mick ah


    I'm actually a little shocked at that 25% figure. I wouldn't have thought it was so high. We can't blame foreign nationals either. They do not make up 25% of the population, they make up only 10%.


  • #551
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Plus the literacy rates of Poland etc are comparable if not better than ours.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • #552
    Jack Bitter Boomerang
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jack Bitter Boomerang


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Hahahahahaha... oh wait... you're being serious?:eek: Even the most hard headed on either side of this debate will agree that the teaching of the language is seriously flawed and has been for generations. I'd go so far as to argue the teaching of english is seriously flawed too, flaws largely masked by the fact it is our "native" language in practical terms(I learned more about nouns, verbs adverbs etc in Latin and French than I did in English class).

    I'd say that's likely in any "teaching the native language" place. Had a Dutch fellow in our german class who tried telling us "dutch doesn't have any grammar like german does, you just say what sounds right"
    I tried explaining but I don't think he got it...


  • #553
    starlings
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭starlings


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Even the most hard headed on either side of this debate will agree that the teaching of the language is seriously flawed and has been for generations. I'd go so far as to argue the teaching of english is seriously flawed too, flaws largely masked by the fact it is our "native" language in practical terms(I learned more about nouns, verbs adverbs etc in Latin and French than I did in English class). Irish is "taught" in a way that assumes a natural affinity with the language. People saying they learned more French and German or whatever in school, likely did so because n top of them being seen as more "useful", they were taught as foreign languages. A step too far to admit for many Gaelgoiri it seems, but a necessary step if we want more people gaining fluency in the language.

    Fair points -native speakers learn from infancy, which is why you learned more English grammar by comparison to other languages than you did as a toddler in your Chomsky phase. :)
    And yes, the teaching of Irish to non-native speakers in schools is terrible, presuming that the vocabulary flows in their Celtic blood so they can understand the finer points and recite declensions like poetry.

    This is a long thread, so sorry if this has already been pointed out (it usually isn't) but for a tiny minority of our population, Irish is the language they think in and they have a right (constitutionally and morally IMO) to conduct their dealings with the state in it. It might be more sensible to only send the Gardaí posted to Gaeltacht areas on courses, but that doesn't mean teaching Irish to civil servants is always a stupid idea.


  • #554
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,991 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Coles wrote: »
    Crap teachers are everywhere and they always have been, and not just teaching Irish! If a teacher is sh!t then the parents have to do something about it. That should include complaining to the principle, but at the very least they should do some extra work at home. At the end of the day the parents have a responsibility to ensure their child is educated.

    I direct you to this post I made
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83720597&postcount=413

    I went to a great school with great teachers. None of us could speak Irish.

    If you want proof of how bad the curriculum is, just look at a 6th class irish book. That's far from conversational level. It's about the level of a second year french text book.

    The curriculum is just useless.


  • #555
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Commissioner called - he wants hsi thread back.

    Honestly, I don't think we're all that far away from the original idea put forward from the thread. To assess the pros and cons of such a job, you've got to look at what he's trying to do, what he's trying to protect and the way in which he is doing it. While it may seem like the topic has become another of those bi-monthly discussions, it's not that far away from the question originally proposed, namely...
    So, in this time of belt-tightening, is An Coimisinéir a luxury we can afford? Would the money be better spent encouraging the use and love of the first official language willingly and voluntarily, rather than forcibly?

    In order to answer those questions, you've got to examine the language itself, which is what we're trying to do. In fact, that second question raised in the opening post is exactly what is under discussion.
    starlings wrote: »
    It might be more sensible to only send the Gardaí posted to Gaeltacht areas on courses, but that doesn't mean teaching Irish to civil servants is always a stupid idea.

    It's not a "stupid" idea. It's just one that is potentially largely wasteful. I fully understand the idea of all Gardai speaking Irish, and agree in Gaeltacht areas it should be near enough mandatory, but for the most part in the rest of the country, it's largely unnessecary. At most, all each station needs is one officer who speaks Irish, and if someone decides to demand an Irish speaker, he can speak to that one officer. In my opinion, all that's really needed is someone on standby (an Irish student or teacher, for instance) who, in the 1 in a million times someone demands an Irish translator, can be contacted quickly and asked to lend their services accordingly. I'd imagine that this is roughly how it works if they have any Eastern Europeans or other foreign nationals requesting such services...

    For the majority of cases though, civil servants simply don't need Irish abilities. A small minority might want them to have such abilities, but that's not reason enough to demand everyone has them.


  • #556
    starlings
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭starlings


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »


    It's not a "stupid" idea. It's just one that is potentially largely wasteful. I fully understand the idea of all Gardai speaking Irish, and agree in Gaeltacht areas it should be near enough mandatory, but for the most part in the rest of the country, it's largely unnessecary. At most, all each station needs is one officer who speaks Irish, and if someone decides to demand an Irish speaker, he can speak to that one officer. In my opinion, all that's really needed is someone on standby (an Irish student or teacher, for instance) who, in the 1 in a million times someone demands an Irish translator, can be contacted quickly and asked to lend their services accordingly. I'd imagine that this is roughly how it works if they have any Eastern Europeans or other foreign nationals requesting such services...

    Some nurses in UCHG speak Irish, as they happen to come from nearby towns and villages. I've heard them speak to elderly patients from the Gaeltacht, who are twice as confused as anyone would be with medical jargon and hospital admin, and it is lucky that they have staff who can reassure them in Irish. Chances are, if they needed to be transferred to a specialist unit in Dublin, there would be someone on staff there who could speak Irish.

    I agree with you that there should be someone on standby for these cases - not to throw the whole language out, but not to leave it to chance either.

    I once met someone who makes some money on the side as a sign language interpreter in the courts - on the basis of needs, Irish and other minority languages could be a tidy little earner for native speakers or people with an aptitude for languages rather than insisting that everyone learn it, often badly.


  • #557
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Why is it anyone who doesn't want to learn irish must have been taught to hate it by someone? People are perfectly capable of forming their own opinion on a subject.

    People who like irish were indoctrinated as a child. Told it was a good thing and must be learnt or youre a terrible person.


  • #558
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,991 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    starlings wrote: »
    I once met someone who makes some money on the side as a sign language interpreter in the courts - on the basis of needs, Irish and other minority languages could be a tidy little earner for native speakers or people with an aptitude for languages rather than insisting that everyone learn it, often badly.

    It already is. There's millions poured into translating documents into irish especially at an EU level. Not to mention the teachers. If Irish weren't mandatory, then they'd lose out too.


  • #559
    starlings
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭starlings


    Grayson wrote: »
    It already is. There's millions poured into translating documents into irish especially at an EU level. Not to mention the teachers. If Irish weren't mandatory, then they'd lose out too.

    Other languages aren't mandatory at school, so Irish teachers would be on a par with teachers of other elective subjects in secondary schools if Irish wasn't mandatory. At primary level they have to teach a curriculum rather than a specific subject so I don't think there'd be much of an effect there either.

    The point I was trying to make is that there is a need for Irish in certain state functions and departments because it is the first language for some people here. Making everyone learn it badly doesn't serve that need; training some people, who are native speakers or linguistically gifted, to specialise in it might.


  • #560
    ZeitgeistGlee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ZeitgeistGlee


    Grayson wrote: »
    It already is. There's millions poured into translating documents into irish especially at an EU level. Not to mention the teachers. If Irish weren't mandatory, then they'd lose out too.

    Don't forget all those students who get Irish grinds on a weekly basis to make up for the curriculum. Tidy little earner there for those involved in it (ironically mostly teachers near my homestead), I wonder how many of them declare it on their tax returns.


  • #561
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,522 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Gambas wrote: »
    What English name? Aside from Dingle there isn't a single place in any Gaeltacht I can think of where the 'English' name isn't a phonetic spelling of the Irish name. Tourists seem to manage fine. Our propensity for having sign posts that point the wrong way and generally poor signage seems to annoy them though.

    An Clochán Liath

    Bastard place, drove through it twice looking for it :(


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  • #562
    Coles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Coles


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Plus the literacy rates of Poland etc are comparable if not better than ours.
    We are talking about literacy in the English language here, right?

    I think it's a fair observation to suggest that the average literacy rates have declined because a very large number of migrants who are not fluent in English moved into the country. Really shows the quality of debate here if that simple point can't be accepted without challenge.:rolleyes:


  • #563
    Jack Bitter Boomerang
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jack Bitter Boomerang


    Coles wrote: »
    We are talking about literacy in the English language here, right?

    I think it's a fair observation to suggest that the average literacy rates have declined because a very large number of migrants who are not fluent in English moved into the country. Really shows the quality of debate here if that simple point can't be accepted without challenge.:rolleyes:

    People won't accept what you say (without proof) without challenge? Sounds like good debate to me


  • #564
    Coles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Coles


    bluewolf wrote: »
    People won't accept what you say (without proof) without challenge? Sounds like good debate to me
    If you're 12. Big people consider the points being made and come to a rational conclusion so that the discussion can progress in a sensible manner.


  • #565
    Canard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,572 ✭✭✭Canard


    Coles wrote: »
    If you're 12. Big people consider the points being made and come to a rational conclusion so that the discussion can progress in a sensible manner.
    Again with the condescension. Why can't you have a civil debate? You expect people to accept your "facts" without proof yet won't even accept that the Irish curriculum is bad. I don't know how people are even continuing to argue when you're being so unreasonable.


  • #566
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Coles wrote: »
    We are talking about literacy in the English language here, right?

    I think it's a fair observation to suggest that the average literacy rates have declined because a very large number of migrants who are not fluent in English moved into the country. Really shows the quality of debate here if that simple point can't be accepted without challenge.:rolleyes:
    Ehh so it's dem iimmmigrints then? Ohh jeebus We've crossed the Rubicon folks.:D "quality of debate"? eh. No really I've asked before what's "irony" as Gaelige?

    We have the worst rates in the EU, with nearly a million people with literacy and numeracy problems. A third of the Irish adult(over 30) population has no education beyond Junior cert. That rises to nearly half in people over 55. The highest literacy problems in the Irish population are in the older groups and that's long before migrants ever came here in any numbers. Though that older issue is now coming back to haunt the young of Ireland. Among the youth of this nation OECD stats show 17% of Irish kids at 15 are functionally illiterate. That's across both genders, when it comes to 15 year old boys this figure rises to 25%, one in four.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #567
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    i was over on Inis Meain last weekend... It really was amazing to see the extent at which they keep the language alive. Every word I heard from every local was irish, unless they were talking to me.

    Don't really have a point to this post, I just enjoyed it alot.


  • #568
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    neil_hosey wrote: »
    i was over on Inis Meain last weekend... It really was amazing to see the extent at which they keep the language alive. Every word I heard from every local was irish, unless they were talking to me.

    Don't really have a point to this post, I just enjoyed it alot.

    haven't you heard they are all backwards because they speak irish


  • #569
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Coles wrote: »
    If you're 12. Big people consider the points being made and come to a rational conclusion so that the discussion can progress in a sensible manner.
    laoch na mona wrote: »
    haven't you heard they are all backwards because they speak irish

    :rolleyes:

    I suppose when struggling to argue a point, its easier to be patronizing and just misrepresent people's arguments.

    I will admit I adore the idea that only children want points in debates backed up with facts, and adults should simply believe everything without asking for facts.


  • #570
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,991 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    haven't you heard they are all backwards because they speak irish

    No, they were just speaking backwards. That's why irish sounds like an iron maiden single.

    And why all irish speakers worship the devil and sacrafice children.

    There, you happy now? Someone's made an actual insult against irish speakers. Because you won't have actually found anyone doing that till now. Go on, find the posts in this that accuse people who speak irish of being anything except lovely people.
    You might find a few posts accusing those who try to force a language on others. Or about the guy who acted like a dick with the Gardai. But, that's it. No-one here has made any accusations against native irish speakers accusing them of anything.


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  • #571
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Why is it anyone who doesn't want to learn irish must have been taught to hate it by someone? People are perfectly capable of forming their own opinion on a subject.

    People who like irish were indoctrinated as a child. Told it was a good thing and must be learnt or youre a terrible person.

    Wow... the irony in your post is striking...

    You say people are can form their own opinions but then you say that people who disagree with your opinions on Irish must have been indoctrinated.. You simply reversed the argument that you disagreed with. Your hypocrisy is absurd.:rolleyes:

    I was an average student when it came to Irish.. I'm not fluent nor am I obsessed with pushing the language on people. In school I used to skip Irish class all the time.

    It was only when I traveled that I opened my mind. I went on Erasmus to Belgium many years ago and managed to speak both Flemish and French quite well(even though many Belgians have fantastic English), last year I went to South Korea for a few months and learned enough Korean to impress manys a local (their alphabet is actually kinda easy!).

    I'm currently learning Spanish and I wish to re-learn Irish. Maybe I simply like languages and I realised the importance of languages in general.

    If it is indoctrination to encourage young people to like Irish, then isn't teaching them to appreciate English also indoctrination? Should we all just speak Esperanto and be done with it?

    Or what about Chinese.. China is the future so let's scrap all other languages so we can get jobs.:D


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