Present Day Ireland v 1930s Germany??

rhamster · 20-03-2013 03:45AM #1

Just think people on the street need to get some perspective here.Was talking with an old history secondary schoolteacher yesterday and we happened to get into a lively debate on the state of the current economy and to my shock she made off the cuff remarks half jokingly but half serious that Ireland circumstances today resemble that of 1930s Germany with the raft of draconian taxes and cuts been put into place and the levels of poverty and hopelessness been displayed by working class people abandoned by politicians and bankers alike!!I mean c'mon are things getting that bad??Okay Enda Kenny and Fine Gael has presided over some of the most punitive taxes and cuts ever placed on this island but is this not a little dramatic and unfair.I believe Enda has had to fend off similarities between himself and Herod made by catholic magazine Alive and its editor who is a parish priest but phrases like "bring back Hitler" been banded around on streets from Dublin to Derry seem grossly exacerbated or are people down the bottom really getting that persecuted and fearful??

kneemos · 20-03-2013 04:12AM

Anybody around in the eighties would say it's not nearly as bad this time around,if it's your first recession the fear and despair is understandable.The one thing I would be concerned about for the future is our level of debt and effect it may have on us in years to come.

Cavehill Red · 20-03-2013 04:12AM

Ireland Vs 1930s Germany?
My money's on the Germans.

20-03-2013 04:14AM

Not even close.

orestes · 20-03-2013 04:20AM

Anybody who believes it's anywhere close should be beaten over the head with a history book.

Topper Harley · 20-03-2013 04:22AM

Godwin's Law - doesn't just apply to online discussions.

menapyan · 20-03-2013 04:24AM

I can see how a very left wing party could find traction in the current climate but I doubt there is any way it would be viable given our system of proportional representation.

ColeTrain · 20-03-2013 04:25AM

orestes wrote: »

Anybody who believes it's anywhere close should be beaten over the head with a history book.

Were you in Germany during the 1930's? I was and can tell now sonny boy that it's much worse here.

orestes · 20-03-2013 04:27AM

ColeTrain wrote: »

Were you in Germany during the 1930's? I was and can tell now sonny boy that it's much worse here.

Dammit granddad, what have I told you about embarrassing me in front of my friends?!

Topper Harley · 20-03-2013 04:28AM

ColeTrain wrote: »

Were you in Germany during the 1930's? I was and can tell now sonny boy that it's much worse here.

orestes wrote: »

Dammit granddad, what have I told you about embarrassing me in front of my friends?!

Yeah, get back in the garage old man. And stay outta my boxes.

orestes · 20-03-2013 04:31AM

Topper Harley wrote: »

Yeah, get back in the garage old man. And stay outta my box.

God dammit grandma! :mad:

ColeTrain · 20-03-2013 04:33AM

orestes wrote: »

Dammit granddad, what have I told you about embarrassing me in front of my friends?!

Wait for the Christmas dinner table. Your cheeks will be as red as that flag we used to fly.

Topper Harley wrote: »

Yeah, get back in the garage old man. And stay outta my boxes.

I done the washing up 30 years ago, you owe me.

Topper Harley · 20-03-2013 04:37AM

ColeTrain wrote: »

Wait for the Christmas dinner table. Your cheeks will be as red as that flag we used to fly.

I done the washing up 30 years ago, you owe me.

Don't be annoying me you, you're worse than Hitler.

deco nate · 20-03-2013 04:38AM

so,what you are sayin is in 80+years
is we will control the world,YES!!
(and 5 years later we will be in the
**** again)

ColeTrain · 20-03-2013 04:39AM

Topper Harley wrote: »

Don't be annoying me you, you're worse than Hitler.

He was alright. Fixed our roads and brought us some pride back. Pity he went a bit mad near the end.

Topper Harley · 20-03-2013 04:40AM

orestes wrote: »

God dammit grandma! :mad:

I new that was coming. Had to double check my post to make sure I hadn't made a typo.

20-03-2013 04:41AM

rhamster wrote: »

to my shock she made off the cuff remarks half jokingly but half serious that Ireland circumstances today resemble that of 1930s Germany with the raft of draconian taxes and cuts been put into place and the levels of poverty and hopelessness been displayed by working class people abandoned by politicians and bankers alike!!

Fair point but the thing that your ex-history teacher fails to factor in is the reaction of the two nations when forced into a corner. Much as I consider Nazi Germany abhorrent to every cell in my body, the people got off their fat arses and did what they (Yes! Mistakenly!) believed to be in the best interests of their families and communities, and worked for some positive change. At least the Germans will do something, and to be completely honest it actually went well for them up to a certain point.

Ireland? "Meh! I can't be arsed. I hope somebody else does something about my problem, I would, but it's raining, and ya know, Liverpool are playing United on Sky. Oh! I just love that "big match" atmosphere you can only get on a pub tv set. So what was the problem again? Oh, yeah, I'm on the dole. Carry on humping me, bankers. I'll get back to you after eastenders. Maybe."

Topper Harley · 20-03-2013 04:43AM

ColeTrain wrote: »

He was alright. Fixed our roads and brought us some pride back. Pity he went a bit mad near the end.

A decorated war hero, a vegetarian, didn't smoke, drank an occasional beer and had no illicit affairs... but then there was the whole........

rhamster · 20-03-2013 04:53AM

Sorry to be a drag...its just that the news,endless war on tv,sad looks on peoples faces and constant negativity is really getting me down.I always had myself down as a positive person but now I feel trapped under this cloud of negativity bearing down on us from all newspapers,media,politicians,etc. to the point I feel as though I am losing my ability to share positive sentiments and hopes for the future.My parents who are quite private people both retired and worked so hard all their lives for my brother,sister and me that I feel sorry for them that they appear gloomy and really struggling to put on a smile and have a laugh like we used to as a family.I notice so many of my friends also developing serious drink problems that are hard to be around if your not towing the line.My father worked all his life until he was 65 and had recently retired but decided to go back on a two day week with a company that offered him specialist work in his field.Its like he has no identity outside of work and its all he knows.He was never a pub person although my mum was partial to the occasional drink but I was suprised to hear him tell me that the two of them were in the pub last weekend as its just something they would never usually do as they always engaged in other weekend activities.I just feel like I can't handle anybody telling me bad news anymore and have stopped going out myself as much as I would rather stay in alone some weekend nights than watch a whole host of my mates piss their lives away.Can anyone relate to this??

menapyan · 20-03-2013 04:55AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair point but the thing that your ex-history teacher fails to factor in is the reaction of the two nations when forced into a corner. Much as I consider Nazi Germany abhorrent to every cell in my body, the people got off their fat arses and did what they (Yes! Mistakenly!) believed to be in the best interests of their families and communities, and worked for some positive change. At least the Germans will do something, and to be completely honest it actually went well for them up to a certain point.

Ireland? "Meh! I can't be arsed. I hope somebody else does something about my problem, I would, but it's raining, and ya know, Liverpool are playing United on Sky. Oh! I just love that "big match" atmosphere you can only get on a pub tv set. So what was the problem again? Oh, yeah, I'm on the dole. Carry on humping me, bankers. I'll get back to you after eastenders. Maybe."

mmm...not really, The German economy was weak as a result of displaced party politics and had defaulted on its debts after ww1, as a result France began to take what it was owed directly from its natural reources which prompted strikes in the industrial sector, lo and behold the govt thought up a brilliant plan to just print money on paper and quell the strikers by using it to pay them. In effect printing fake money caused inflation and the country fell into economic chaos. A small right wing group known as the Nazi began organising rebellions but failed to succeed in ousting the government.
Gustav Strassman (a little bit like bertie) came to settle the disorder by managing to get a loan from the Americans which helped create jobs,provide social welfare and bring Germany back to its feet. The only flaw was in order to do this he had to create a power sharing government, which conveniently opened the door for the nazi's to walk into office. Several years later Hitler became chancellor.

menapyan · 20-03-2013 05:04AM

rhamster wrote: »

Sorry to be a drag...its just that the news,endless war on tv,sad looks on peoples faces and constant negativity is really getting me down.I always had myself down as a positive person but now I feel trapped under this cloud of negativity bearing down on us from all newspapers,media,politicians,etc. to the point I feel as though I am losing my ability to share positive sentiments and hopes for the future.My parents who are quite private people both retired and worked so hard all their lives for my brother,sister and me that I feel sorry for them that they appear gloomy and really struggling to put on a smile and have a laugh like we used to as a family.I notice so many of my friends also developing serious drink problems that are hard to be around if your not towing the line.My father worked all his life until he was 65 and had recently retired but decided to go back on a two day week with a company that offered him specialist work in his field.Its like he has no identity outside of work and its all he knows.He was never a pub person although my mum was partial to the occasional drink but I was suprised to hear him tell me that the two of them were in the pub last weekend as its just something they would never usually do as they always engaged in other weekend activities.I just feel like I can't handle anybody telling me bad news anymore and have stopped going out myself as much as I would rather stay in alone some weekend nights than watch a whole host of my mates piss their lives away.Can anyone relate to this??

hey, I'm sure you're not alone and there are many here who can relate.

20-03-2013 05:11AM

menapyan wrote: »

mmm...not really,

Not sure I understand your point. I don't argue your chain of events or anything, and not disputing your interpretation of history. My point is that people across Europe, for the purposes of this thread Germany but other countries as well (France being a prime example and I guess a more modern one) react to crises differently.

The rights and wrongs of what was going on in the final days of Weimar Germany to one side for a moment, the people got motivated to take an interest in their own lives. No one was going to do it for them, so they took action. The wrong action maybe, and they were most certainly misguided, but the motivation for getting off their arses was there and at least they did something.

The fact that they took the wrong decision is something we should learn from, given that we can't go back and change it. But the shocking apathy here will only ever make things worse.

menapyan · 20-03-2013 05:16AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I understand your point. I don't argue your chain of events or anything, and not disputing your interpretation of history. My point is that people across Europe, for the purposes of this thread Germany but other countries as well (France being a prime example and I guess a more modern one) react to crises differently.

The rights and wrongs of what was going on in the final days of Weimar Germany to one side for a moment, the people got motivated to take an interest in their own lives. No one was going to do it for them, so they took action. The wrong action maybe, and they were most certainly misguided, but the motivation for getting off their arses was there and at least they did something.

The fact that they took the wrong decision is something we should learn from, given that we can't go back and change it. But the shocking apathy here will only ever make things worse.

when you say the people, do you mean the nazi's? The people were being held hostage by debts of ww1, they couldn't get up off their arses and try to make the economy better. The nazi's didn't do that either, they were just a small right wing organisation at that time, the loan stresemann obtained is what helped Germanys economy, the nazi's had no involvement in that at all but after a few years when things shaped up somewhat they were able to use it to their advantage and just walk into positions of Government.

(but yes I agree, different countries react in different ways but I think the point is there probably are quite a lot of similarities )

20-03-2013 05:30AM

OK, I'm probably not getting my point across. I wasn't alive in Weimar Germany, I suspect neither were you, so neither of us will ever say with any certainty what the real "national mood" of the exploited classes was.

I'm not really talking about how things eventually played out in Germany, in fact that has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was trying to make so I apologize for getting sidetracked down that road. I'm talking about an absolutely disgraceful and embarrassing submissive attitude that's rampant in this country which once prided itself on independence and a shared solidarity with other peoples resistance to tyranny.

menapyan · 20-03-2013 05:45AM

Deleted User wrote: »

OK, I'm probably not getting my point across. I wasn't alive in Weimar Germany, I suspect neither were you, so neither of us will ever say with any certainty what the real "national mood" of the exploited classes was.

I'm not really talking about how things eventually played out in Germany, in fact that has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was trying to make so I apologize for getting sidetracked down that road. I'm talking about an absolutely disgraceful and embarrassing submissive attitude that's rampant in this country which once prided itself on independence and a shared solidarity with other peoples resistance to tyranny.

I'm not really sure that's fair on the Irish people. I know I can't extrapolate on the mood of the people of Wiemar Germany but certainly, economically, they were strapped by their balls and had no wiggle room. There really was very little they could do.
It's very difficult to sustain new business or enterprise if the economy can't support it, if there is no money in the pockets of your customers to buy your products or if the cost is so high that it profits are negligible or if the banks can't provide either of you with the funds to help because it's not there.
We are, whether we like it or not, dependent on other countries for our economic stability, despite all our best efforts to be otherwise.

(sorry, I didn't catch the bit about apathy, but yes I agree)

nice_very · 20-03-2013 05:58AM

who has the popcorn? pass it along now dont be a fukcin je.. nevermind

Azure_sky · 20-03-2013 06:58AM

ColeTrain wrote: »

Were you in Germany during the 1930's? I was and can tell now sonny boy that it's much worse here.

20-03-2013 07:36AM

This thread wins the "at least they did something" award

MadsL · 20-03-2013 07:52AM

ColeTrain wrote: »

He was alright. Fixed our roads and brought us some pride back. Pity he went a bit mad near the end.

He fixted the road? Has my vote... and my son's.

Sergeant · 20-03-2013 08:40AM

Good thing they're an ex-teacher then, if they can make such a stupid and ill-informed comparison. Just unthinking gibberish of the most sensationalist sort.

Shenshen · 20-03-2013 08:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I understand your point. I don't argue your chain of events or anything, and not disputing your interpretation of history. My point is that people across Europe, for the purposes of this thread Germany but other countries as well (France being a prime example and I guess a more modern one) react to crises differently.

The rights and wrongs of what was going on in the final days of Weimar Germany to one side for a moment, the people got motivated to take an interest in their own lives. No one was going to do it for them, so they took action. The wrong action maybe, and they were most certainly misguided, but the motivation for getting off their arses was there and at least they did something.

The fact that they took the wrong decision is something we should learn from, given that we can't go back and change it. But the shocking apathy here will only ever make things worse.

Actually, that is exactly why many voted for Hitler.
So he could get things sorted out for them, and they wouldn't have to.
The passivity of the average German at the time was what facilitated and enabled the rise of the Nazi party.

Present Day Ireland v 1930s Germany??

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