Present Day Ireland v 1930s Germany??

rhamster

Just think people on the street need to get some perspective here.Was talking with an old history secondary schoolteacher yesterday and we happened to get into a lively debate on the state of the current economy and to my shock she made off the cuff remarks half jokingly but half serious that Ireland circumstances today resemble that of 1930s Germany with the raft of draconian taxes and cuts been put into place and the levels of poverty and hopelessness been displayed by working class people abandoned by politicians and bankers alike!!I mean c'mon are things getting that bad??Okay Enda Kenny and Fine Gael has presided over some of the most punitive taxes and cuts ever placed on this island but is this not a little dramatic and unfair.I believe Enda has had to fend off similarities between himself and Herod made by catholic magazine Alive and its editor who is a parish priest but phrases like "bring back Hitler" been banded around on streets from Dublin to Derry seem grossly exacerbated or are people down the bottom really getting that persecuted and fearful??

kneemos

Anybody around in the eighties would say it's not nearly as bad this time around,if it's your first recession the fear and despair is understandable.The one thing I would be concerned about for the future is our level of debt and effect it may have on us in years to come.

Cavehill Red

Ireland Vs 1930s Germany?
My money's on the Germans.

Not even close.

orestes

Anybody who believes it's anywhere close should be beaten over the head with a history book.

Topper Harley

Godwin's Law - doesn't just apply to online discussions.

menapyan

I can see how a very left wing party could find traction in the current climate but I doubt there is any way it would be viable given our system of proportional representation.

ColeTrain

orestes wrote: »

Anybody who believes it's anywhere close should be beaten over the head with a history book.

Were you in Germany during the 1930's? I was and can tell now sonny boy that it's much worse here.

orestes

ColeTrain wrote: »

Were you in Germany during the 1930's? I was and can tell now sonny boy that it's much worse here.

Dammit granddad, what have I told you about embarrassing me in front of my friends?!

Topper Harley

ColeTrain wrote: »

Were you in Germany during the 1930's? I was and can tell now sonny boy that it's much worse here.

orestes wrote: »

Dammit granddad, what have I told you about embarrassing me in front of my friends?!

Yeah, get back in the garage old man. And stay outta my boxes.

orestes

Topper Harley wrote: »

Yeah, get back in the garage old man. And stay outta my box.

God dammit grandma! :mad:

ColeTrain

orestes wrote: »

Dammit granddad, what have I told you about embarrassing me in front of my friends?!

Wait for the Christmas dinner table. Your cheeks will be as red as that flag we used to fly.

Topper Harley wrote: »

Yeah, get back in the garage old man. And stay outta my boxes.

I done the washing up 30 years ago, you owe me.

Topper Harley

ColeTrain wrote: »

Wait for the Christmas dinner table. Your cheeks will be as red as that flag we used to fly.



I done the washing up 30 years ago, you owe me.

Don't be annoying me you, you're worse than Hitler.

deco nate

so,what you are sayin is in 80+years
is we will control the world,YES!!
(and 5 years later we will be in the
**** again)

ColeTrain

Topper Harley wrote: »

Don't be annoying me you, you're worse than Hitler.

He was alright. Fixed our roads and brought us some pride back. Pity he went a bit mad near the end.

Topper Harley

orestes wrote: »

God dammit grandma! :mad:

I new that was coming. Had to double check my post to make sure I hadn't made a typo.

rhamster

rhamster wrote: »

to my shock she made off the cuff remarks half jokingly but half serious that Ireland circumstances today resemble that of 1930s Germany with the raft of draconian taxes and cuts been put into place and the levels of poverty and hopelessness been displayed by working class people abandoned by politicians and bankers alike!!

Fair point but the thing that your ex-history teacher fails to factor in is the reaction of the two nations when forced into a corner. Much as I consider Nazi Germany abhorrent to every cell in my body, the people got off their fat arses and did what they (Yes! Mistakenly!) believed to be in the best interests of their families and communities, and worked for some positive change. At least the Germans will do something, and to be completely honest it actually went well for them up to a certain point.

Ireland? "Meh! I can't be arsed. I hope somebody else does something about my problem, I would, but it's raining, and ya know, Liverpool are playing United on Sky. Oh! I just love that "big match" atmosphere you can only get on a pub tv set. So what was the problem again? Oh, yeah, I'm on the dole. Carry on humping me, bankers. I'll get back to you after eastenders. Maybe."

Topper Harley

ColeTrain wrote: »

He was alright. Fixed our roads and brought us some pride back. Pity he went a bit mad near the end.

A decorated war hero, a vegetarian, didn't smoke, drank an occasional beer and had no illicit affairs... but then there was the whole........

rhamster

Sorry to be a drag...its just that the news,endless war on tv,sad looks on peoples faces and constant negativity is really getting me down.I always had myself down as a positive person but now I feel trapped under this cloud of negativity bearing down on us from all newspapers,media,politicians,etc. to the point I feel as though I am losing my ability to share positive sentiments and hopes for the future.My parents who are quite private people both retired and worked so hard all their lives for my brother,sister and me that I feel sorry for them that they appear gloomy and really struggling to put on a smile and have a laugh like we used to as a family.I notice so many of my friends also developing serious drink problems that are hard to be around if your not towing the line.My father worked all his life until he was 65 and had recently retired but decided to go back on a two day week with a company that offered him specialist work in his field.Its like he has no identity outside of work and its all he knows.He was never a pub person although my mum was partial to the occasional drink but I was suprised to hear him tell me that the two of them were in the pub last weekend as its just something they would never usually do as they always engaged in other weekend activities.I just feel like I can't handle anybody telling me bad news anymore and have stopped going out myself as much as I would rather stay in alone some weekend nights than watch a whole host of my mates piss their lives away.Can anyone relate to this??

menapyan

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair point but the thing that your ex-history teacher fails to factor in is the reaction of the two nations when forced into a corner. Much as I consider Nazi Germany abhorrent to every cell in my body, the people got off their fat arses and did what they (Yes! Mistakenly!) believed to be in the best interests of their families and communities, and worked for some positive change. At least the Germans will do something, and to be completely honest it actually went well for them up to a certain point.

Ireland? "Meh! I can't be arsed. I hope somebody else does something about my problem, I would, but it's raining, and ya know, Liverpool are playing United on Sky. Oh! I just love that "big match" atmosphere you can only get on a pub tv set. So what was the problem again? Oh, yeah, I'm on the dole. Carry on humping me, bankers. I'll get back to you after eastenders. Maybe."

mmm...not really, The German economy was weak as a result of displaced party politics and had defaulted on its debts after ww1, as a result France began to take what it was owed directly from its natural reources which prompted strikes in the industrial sector, lo and behold the govt thought up a brilliant plan to just print money on paper and quell the strikers by using it to pay them. In effect printing fake money caused inflation and the country fell into economic chaos. A small right wing group known as the Nazi began organising rebellions but failed to succeed in ousting the government.
Gustav Strassman (a little bit like bertie) came to settle the disorder by managing to get a loan from the Americans which helped create jobs,provide social welfare and bring Germany back to its feet. The only flaw was in order to do this he had to create a power sharing government, which conveniently opened the door for the nazi's to walk into office. Several years later Hitler became chancellor.

menapyan

rhamster wrote: »

Sorry to be a drag...its just that the news,endless war on tv,sad looks on peoples faces and constant negativity is really getting me down.I always had myself down as a positive person but now I feel trapped under this cloud of negativity bearing down on us from all newspapers,media,politicians,etc. to the point I feel as though I am losing my ability to share positive sentiments and hopes for the future.My parents who are quite private people both retired and worked so hard all their lives for my brother,sister and me that I feel sorry for them that they appear gloomy and really struggling to put on a smile and have a laugh like we used to as a family.I notice so many of my friends also developing serious drink problems that are hard to be around if your not towing the line.My father worked all his life until he was 65 and had recently retired but decided to go back on a two day week with a company that offered him specialist work in his field.Its like he has no identity outside of work and its all he knows.He was never a pub person although my mum was partial to the occasional drink but I was suprised to hear him tell me that the two of them were in the pub last weekend as its just something they would never usually do as they always engaged in other weekend activities.I just feel like I can't handle anybody telling me bad news anymore and have stopped going out myself as much as I would rather stay in alone some weekend nights than watch a whole host of my mates piss their lives away.Can anyone relate to this??

hey, I'm sure you're not alone and there are many here who can relate.

menapyan

menapyan wrote: »

mmm...not really,

Not sure I understand your point. I don't argue your chain of events or anything, and not disputing your interpretation of history. My point is that people across Europe, for the purposes of this thread Germany but other countries as well (France being a prime example and I guess a more modern one) react to crises differently.

The rights and wrongs of what was going on in the final days of Weimar Germany to one side for a moment, the people got motivated to take an interest in their own lives. No one was going to do it for them, so they took action. The wrong action maybe, and they were most certainly misguided, but the motivation for getting off their arses was there and at least they did something.

The fact that they took the wrong decision is something we should learn from, given that we can't go back and change it. But the shocking apathy here will only ever make things worse.

menapyan

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I understand your point. I don't argue your chain of events or anything, and not disputing your interpretation of history. My point is that people across Europe, for the purposes of this thread Germany but other countries as well (France being a prime example and I guess a more modern one) react to crises differently.

The rights and wrongs of what was going on in the final days of Weimar Germany to one side for a moment, the people got motivated to take an interest in their own lives. No one was going to do it for them, so they took action. The wrong action maybe, and they were most certainly misguided, but the motivation for getting off their arses was there and at least they did something.

The fact that they took the wrong decision is something we should learn from, given that we can't go back and change it. But the shocking apathy here will only ever make things worse.

when you say the people, do you mean the nazi's? The people were being held hostage by debts of ww1, they couldn't get up off their arses and try to make the economy better. The nazi's didn't do that either, they were just a small right wing organisation at that time, the loan stresemann obtained is what helped Germanys economy, the nazi's had no involvement in that at all but after a few years when things shaped up somewhat they were able to use it to their advantage and just walk into positions of Government.

(but yes I agree, different countries react in different ways but I think the point is there probably are quite a lot of similarities )

OK, I'm probably not getting my point across. I wasn't alive in Weimar Germany, I suspect neither were you, so neither of us will ever say with any certainty what the real "national mood" of the exploited classes was.

I'm not really talking about how things eventually played out in Germany, in fact that has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was trying to make so I apologize for getting sidetracked down that road. I'm talking about an absolutely disgraceful and embarrassing submissive attitude that's rampant in this country which once prided itself on independence and a shared solidarity with other peoples resistance to tyranny.

menapyan

Deleted User wrote: »

OK, I'm probably not getting my point across. I wasn't alive in Weimar Germany, I suspect neither were you, so neither of us will ever say with any certainty what the real "national mood" of the exploited classes was.

I'm not really talking about how things eventually played out in Germany, in fact that has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was trying to make so I apologize for getting sidetracked down that road. I'm talking about an absolutely disgraceful and embarrassing submissive attitude that's rampant in this country which once prided itself on independence and a shared solidarity with other peoples resistance to tyranny.

I'm not really sure that's fair on the Irish people. I know I can't extrapolate on the mood of the people of Wiemar Germany but certainly, economically, they were strapped by their balls and had no wiggle room. There really was very little they could do.
It's very difficult to sustain new business or enterprise if the economy can't support it, if there is no money in the pockets of your customers to buy your products or if the cost is so high that it profits are negligible or if the banks can't provide either of you with the funds to help because it's not there.
We are, whether we like it or not, dependent on other countries for our economic stability, despite all our best efforts to be otherwise.


(sorry, I didn't catch the bit about apathy, but yes I agree)

nice_very

who has the popcorn? pass it along now dont be a fukcin je.. nevermind

Azure_sky

ColeTrain wrote: »

Were you in Germany during the 1930's? I was and can tell now sonny boy that it's much worse here.

This thread wins the "at least they did something" award

MadsL

ColeTrain wrote: »

He was alright. Fixed our roads and brought us some pride back. Pity he went a bit mad near the end.

He fixted the road? Has my vote... and my son's.

Sergeant

Good thing they're an ex-teacher then, if they can make such a stupid and ill-informed comparison. Just unthinking gibberish of the most sensationalist sort.

Shenshen

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I understand your point. I don't argue your chain of events or anything, and not disputing your interpretation of history. My point is that people across Europe, for the purposes of this thread Germany but other countries as well (France being a prime example and I guess a more modern one) react to crises differently.

The rights and wrongs of what was going on in the final days of Weimar Germany to one side for a moment, the people got motivated to take an interest in their own lives. No one was going to do it for them, so they took action. The wrong action maybe, and they were most certainly misguided, but the motivation for getting off their arses was there and at least they did something.

The fact that they took the wrong decision is something we should learn from, given that we can't go back and change it. But the shocking apathy here will only ever make things worse.

Actually, that is exactly why many voted for Hitler.
So he could get things sorted out for them, and they wouldn't have to.
The passivity of the average German at the time was what facilitated and enabled the rise of the Nazi party.

Grand Moff Tarkin

rhamster wrote: »

Just think people on the street need to get some perspective here.Was talking with an old history secondary schoolteacher yesterday and we happened to get into a lively debate on the state of the current economy and to my shock she made off the cuff remarks half jokingly but half serious that Ireland circumstances today resemble that of 1930s Germany with the raft of draconian taxes and cuts been put into place and the levels of poverty and hopelessness been displayed by working class people abandoned by politicians and bankers alike!!I mean c'mon are things getting that bad??Okay Enda Kenny and Fine Gael has presided over some of the most punitive taxes and cuts ever placed on this island but is this not a little dramatic and unfair.I believe Enda has had to fend off similarities between himself and Herod made by catholic magazine Alive and its editor who is a parish priest but phrases like "bring back Hitler" been banded around on streets from Dublin to Derry seem grossly exacerbated or are people down the bottom really getting that persecuted and fearful??

I shudder to think of the pass rate in history that teacher had.

Fratton Fred

We dont have the rampant inflation for starters.

People would do their shopping first thing in the morning because prices for basic goods, bread milk etc would go up during the day.

Unless I've missed it, I haven't seen that here.

Oh, who are we going to Annex? I choose Wales.

AlekSmart

Shenshen wrote: »

Actually, that is exactly why many voted for Hitler.
So he could get things sorted out for them, and they wouldn't have to.
The passivity of the average German at the time was what facilitated and enabled the rise of the Nazi party.

The most important aspect of the OP would be to make one question the quality of our Teacher Training tbo.

However,I'd have to suggest that "passivity" might not be the most accurate description for the German psyche between the wars.

If so,then I'd sure hate to come up agin them in aggressive mood.

There is,and always has been a huge gap between average Irish and German thinking.

It covers every aspect of life,but is perhaps most visible(and important) when applied across the basic stuff.

Dravokivich

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, who are we going to Annex? I choose Wales.

Sure, we have our very own Sudetenland up north!

tritium

I remember reading about how inflation got so bad that the german central bank couldn't print money fast enough to keep up. They took one Deutschmark notes, scribbled out the one and wrote ein billion (or whatever the german for 1 billion is) on them

We're doing ok by comparison!

bnt

Fratton Fred wrote: »

We dont have the rampant inflation for starters.

People would do their shopping first thing in the morning because prices for basic goods, bread milk etc would go up during the day.

Unless I've missed it, I haven't seen that here.

tritium wrote: »

I remember reading about how inflation got so bad that the german central bank couldn't print money fast enough to keep up. They took one Deutschmark notes, scribbled out the one and wrote ein billion (or whatever the german for 1 billion is) on them

That hyperinflation happened from 1921-24, not in the 1930s.

Does the OP mean 1930-33, the last days of the Weimar Republic, or the Nazi years after that? If the former, I can see what he means, since unemployment skyrocketed and "austerity" was tried under Chancellor Brüning from 1930-32. But we're talking about a far, far worse economic situation than in Ireland today. It was the Great Depression, after all, while this is "just" the Great Recession.

Truncheon Rouge

Well we're not quite as bad off as Germany in the 1930's.
But I can understand peoples frustration at the drop in the economy and quality of life.
Im sure someone out there is responsible for what happened, what we need to do now is find out who this group or groups is and somehow prevent them from damaging our country again, if we could somehow localise them into one small area, some sort of focused re-education and work internment centre where they could pay back into society, through work that would set them free.

Seedy Arling

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, who are we going to Annex? I choose Wales.

The Republic of Cork. Shut 'em up once and for all. :cool:

anncoates

Each time you think the bleating of the Celtic Tiger cubs is bad, it goes and ups the ante on itself.

I'm expecting the Ireland 2013 vs Haiti 2010 comparisons next.

Grand Moff Tarkin

Seedy Arling wrote: »

The Republic of Cork. Shut 'em up once and for all. :cool:

The Rebel County kicked the English out after the lads in Dublin screwed it up in 1916 when the odds were in their favour.:D

clairefontaine

No not yet.

When you have to bring a sack of Euros full of 5000 to buy a bag of coal, then yes, it will resemble pre-war Germany.

There are similarities in that painful reparation to a debt can create pre war conditions, but we are not there yet, also Ireland does not control the money printing press so it can't just keep printing notes. I doubt very much whomever runs the Euro press will do this either.

Cabaal

Are times hard now, yes

Is this the hardest we've had it, not by a long shot.

Lets look at even the 1980's, in the 1980's we had unemployment of 19%....if you also wanted a mortgage you'd also be paying 19% interest. Hell even in 1990 my sister got a mortgage with 12% interest rate...it was the norm!

Now lets look back further, my dad was born in the 1930's and and the family owned a shop, he remembers family's coming into our shop in the 50's and 60's who would start putting money aside in August for a fruit cake for Christmas. Just a fruit cake!!!!

Thats only one small example.

People were that poor!

We don't know what poor and hardship is, we only think we do. We haven't a clue in Ireland what real poverty is.

kupus

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, who are we going to Annex? I choose Wales.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Sure, we have our very own Sudetenland up north!

Dont forget Cornwall, Isle of Man, and a bit of Brittany and maybe Scotland, but the trouble with Scotland is, its full of scots.
West ward we can take Newfoundland, New York, Chicago Philly, Atlanta Boston, on the other coast San fran, Leave la alone and give it to the mexicans for their help (they owe us one for the san patricios anyway) Portland, Seattle.
We all meet up in boise Idaho.

And hey presto the federation of the Irish States of the Northern Hemisphere is created. With the new capital of Boise Idaho as capital. And then we corner the potato market WORLDWIDE. muhaaaaa.

nice_very

Kupus, if you are going to use Boise as capital, it would be in your interest getting the Basque Country onside (they are now anyway)