Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

19-03-2013 12:12AM

Aineoil wrote: »

Irish is my first language, but I would never impose it on anyone. Let's face it - a language is a tool for communication - if I communicate to a person better in English why would I use Irish?

Zealotry deserves ridicule, however, if there were more Irish speakers with your no-nonsense attitude, I'd almost be tempted to have another go at learning it, respect deserves respect.

opti0nal · 19-03-2013 04:30AM

SWL wrote: »

Is that the educational systems fault or is it the culture you are following?

My culture is none of your damn business. That's the whole point.

opti0nal · 19-03-2013 04:31AM

SWL wrote: »

Is that the educational systems fault or is it the culture you are following?

My culture is none of your damn business. That's the whole point.

Don't tell me what language I should speak.

policarp · 19-03-2013 05:19AM

We should all be trying to speak ESPERANTO.

Coles · 19-03-2013 09:23AM

Wibbs wrote: »

As for "Selective Ancestry", the male part of my gene map shows me to be of a line that goes right back to the first mesolithic modern humans known on this land near 11,000 years ago. Given the stats on that, I can say with some confidence that I'm likely more "Irish" than you are, yet I have little more than the cupla focal? And as for being thick for not learning it? Oh I'm more than happy to admit to being thick. Hell I demonstrate it on a near daily basis, but I suspect I've lost more knowledge of Irish history after a bad hangover than you have learned in a decade. I could well be wrong, I often am, but so far going on the evidence in black and white pixels in this thread I might just have the edge.

I'm still trying to get my head around this post. You profess yourself as being 'more Irish' and having 'more knowledge of Irish History'? A clear sign of insecurity, but also ironic when you know nothing about me, and also you have made such a massive display of ignorance of historical fact.

11000 years ago Ireland was still in the grip of the Ice Age and the first people hadn't crossed over from Britain for at least another 1000 years, possibly even 1500 years. Perhaps you have evidence to suggest that your ancestors came here a 1000 years before anyone else, but I suggest you're arguing from a position of ignorance.

Another interesting fact is that EVERY Irish person is related in some way to those earliest settlers. Not just you. I hope you're ok with that.

So, less mickey swinging, eh?

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 11:09AM

Coles wrote: »

but also ironic when you know nothing about me

I'm sorry but between you and Wibbs whose posts have been consistently filled with ill-informed certainties about the parents, households and intelligence-levels of other posters? (Hint: It's not Wibbs)

I see you've also completely given up attempting to defend your previous points, not really that surprising when you've not had a leg to stand on for about 10 pages.

Wibbs · 19-03-2013 11:11AM

He probably thinks we're related to the Basques(and "Celts") too.

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 11:19AM

Wibbs wrote: »

He probably thinks we're related to the Basques(and "Celts") too.

Ah but surely we're brothers in spirit seeing as they too have known the yolk of imperial tyranny for centuries.

Aineoil wrote: »

Irish is my first language, but I would never impose it on anyone. Let's face it - a language is a tool for communication - if I communicate to a person better in English why would I use Irish?

I think if more people were willing to hold a respectful, moderate, sensible attitude like this on both sides of the overall "Irish" debate then an awful lot of the vitriol and ill-feeling could be avoided.

Neither Irish nor English are inherently superior to one another, either in a communicative or cultural dimension, one is simply used more than the other that's it.

Coles · 19-03-2013 12:43PM

I have suggested that if someone spends 14 years attempting to learn a language and fails, is either thick or has a bad attitude towards the language. Is that not a fair assumption?

I notice that you guys are frothing at the mouth a bit, but increasingly you are acknowledging that you couldn't learn Irish because of your bad attitude towards it. That's progress.

So how about we just focus on exploring why you guys have such a bad attitude?

The Irish Language and the Irish People.

Anyone who is interested in this topic should read it. .

marienbad · 19-03-2013 12:52PM

Coles wrote: »

I have suggested that if someone spends 14 years attempting to learn a language and fails, is either thick or has a bad attitude towards the language. Is that not a fair assumption?

I notice that you guys are frothing at the mouth a bit, but increasingly you are acknowledging that you couldn't learn Irish because of your bad attitude towards it. That's progress.

So how about we just focus on exploring why you guys have such a bad attitude?

The Irish Language and the Irish People.

Anyone who is interested in this topic should read it. .

Which is exactly the question I asked you earlier ? So what is your answer ?

Waestrel · 19-03-2013 12:53PM

Coles wrote: »

I have suggested that if someone spends 14 years attempting to learn a language and fails, is either thick or has a bad attitude towards the language. Is that not a fair assumption?

No, not a fair assumption - the overall attitude seems to be on of indifference. At least for me. I dont hate the language, but I have no great interest either. Its simply not relevant to my life, my social circle, or my identity as an Irishman.

This whole nation spends 14 years learning it, very few emerge fluent from school, are we all morons therefore?

gobnaitolunacy · 19-03-2013 12:58PM

Coles wrote: »

So how about we just focus on exploring why you guys have such a bad attitude?
.

Nice attempt at a troll.

SWL · 19-03-2013 01:55PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

A very nerdy, technological one.

My bedroom is littered with relics of science fiction and american culture, via the form of movies, tv shows, books, comic books, games. My culture is one shaped by authors such as Stephen King and Robert Kirkman, of writers and filmmakers like Joss Whedon, Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, of video games made across the world. It's also one shaped by the international texts I read and studied as part of my university days; Shakespeare being very prominent, as well as the several texts I studied as part of my English MA (funnily enough, an MA which specialized in Empire and Post-Colonial Culture). A culture of being a mad Manchester United fan and a fan of American Pro-Wrestling. A guy who likes cats over dogs. A guy who, to make an admission, quite likes X Factor and cheap manufactured pop. All of these creative contributions by others are simply part of the world which shapes my culture and my personal identity.

I realise that may not be a hugely individual or unique one, but it's mine. I'm not going to force it on anyone. It's an English speaking culture, shaped and founded on other English based texts. One with very little basis on the accidental factor that was my country of origin. And it's mine.

I'm sorry if this is not your ideal of a culture or if you look down your nose at said choices which shape my life. I don't look down my nose at anyone who sees the Irish language as part of their cultural identity. I simply ask that I be allowed shape my own culture and you (and anyone else who wants to speak Irish) shape yours, without either of us forcing our cultural beliefs onto the other.

See, this is where I start to actually feel a bit sorry for you. You're jumping into this debate without actually knowing the people who are arguing the "same" side as you are. For the last two years, there's typically this same topic every second month. Every time the idea of optional Irish is brought up, it's quickly and staunchly shot down, with an absolute refusal to even discuss it.

What you list are interests but not necessarily culture in its correct definition

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 01:56PM

Coles wrote: »

I have suggested that if someone spends 14 years attempting to learn a language and fails, is either thick or has a bad attitude towards the language. Is that not a fair assumption?

Not in the least considering you've repeatedly ignored and excluded any factors which work against you: the effectiveness of Irish teachers (and their attitude) and the effectiveness of the Irish curriculum. Other proponents of Irish have acknowledged the inadequacy in both but you're still content lay all the blame where it suits your point best.

If we were talking about a single person, or even a relatively small group of people your assumption might be "fair" and I stress the word "might", but with the documented, factual lack of retention of Irish in the vast majority of Irish students post-Leaving Cert level compared to other languages studied then it boils down to questions about the curriculum and those teaching it.

Or does my assumption not strike you as "fair"? :rolleyes:

Coles wrote: »

I notice that you guys are frothing at the mouth a bit, but increasingly you are acknowledging that you couldn't learn Irish because of your bad attitude towards it. That's progress.

And I notice your replies are getting more blatant in their attempt to stir up ill-sentiment over any meaningful input to the discussion. Whether or not people acknowledge they had a poor attitude towards Irish in school is irrelevant if the curriculum itself is poorly constructed to begin with. To use an agricultural euphemism, you can't raise good animals on bad land.

Coles wrote: »

So how about we just focus on exploring why you guys have such a bad attitude?

How about we actually try to have an informed, rational and unbiased discussion instead of your poor attempts at armchair psychology?

Besides I don't think having to acknowledge that it's actually not everyone else's fault that they don't love Irish to the same fanatic extent you do would please you much.

Coles wrote: »

The Irish Language and the Irish People.

Would I be even slightly surprised if this turned out to be another inherently biased document like the last one you posted? :rolleyes:

SWL · 19-03-2013 01:57PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Ah but surely we're brothers in spirit seeing as they too have known the yolk of imperial tyranny for centuries.

I think if more people were willing to hold a respectful, moderate, sensible attitude like this on both sides of the overall "Irish" debate then an awful lot of the vitriol and ill-feeling could be avoided.

Neither Irish nor English are inherently superior to one another, either in a communicative or cultural dimension, one is simply used more than the other that's it.

They do in my experience, you really shouldn't use boards.ie as a barometer for the entire Irish society

SWL · 19-03-2013 02:07PM

opti0nal wrote: »

My culture is none of your damn business. That's the whole point.

Don't tell me what language I should speak.

Gladly point out where I told you what language to speak, I pointed out that many Irish people do not speak Irish, the reason they give is the education system is at fault, or they didn't believe it was of use in day to day living so stopped giving it study time, but they appear not to have given study time to other languages also.

So if someone said I stopped devoting study time to Irish as I wanted to get better at German etc I could understand, as it appears to be part of Irish society to force people to emigrate every ten years in theri thousands.

The German economy is booming, educated Irish people can't work there as they don't speak German, so as an outsider I observe that Irish people are no more interested in other languages than their own native one.

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 02:09PM

SWL wrote: »

They do in my experience, you really shouldn't use boards.ie as a barometer for the entire Irish society

With all due respect my experience differs from yours then, and indeed by and large sadly mirrors the flow of the discussion here.

Additionally Boards is the largest Irish forum on the internet (to my knowledge) so its use as a sample "barometer" for the issue (at least among web-going Irish people) is not inappropriate.

I notice you also haven't replied to either question raised about the prospect of being forced to become bilingual in Finnish or Sami either.

Lord TSC · 19-03-2013 02:11PM

SWL wrote: »

What you list are interests but not necessarily culture in its correct definition

Well please provide me with the correct definition of culture then so I can adjust my views accordingly, and offer a more adequate response.

Wibbs · 19-03-2013 02:11PM

It's the same document as earlier.

SWL · 19-03-2013 02:18PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

With all due respect my experience differs from yours then, and indeed by and large sadly mirrors the flow of the discussion here.

Additionally Boards is the largest Irish forum on the internet (to my knowledge) so its use as a sample "barometer" for the issue (at least among web-going Irish people) is not inappropriate.

I notice you also haven't replied to either question raised about the prospect of being forced to become bilingual in Finnish or Sami either.

Didn't see the question in relation to Sami, but it is a recognised language in Sweden and it can be used when dealing with public officails.

Also you cannont use boards.ie as popular as it is to guage the Irish speaking public to non speakers, just becasue most people agree with you. As an outsider I was made very welcome by Irish speakers, if people don't agree that doesn't mean you are correct as this site has a limited demographic

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 02:21PM

Wibbs wrote: »

It's the same document as earlier.

Quelle surprise. :rolleyes:

I'm sure those who speak Irish will indulge my desire my speak French, after all part of my family is Norman in origin so it is part of my culture apparently. I'd post a phonetic for those who don't speak French but I imagine it wouldn't be all that useful so in the interest of being equitable, courteous and communicative it meant "What a surprise."

gobnaitolunacy · 19-03-2013 02:23PM

They discussed the original thread topic (ie Irish language use by Gardai) on radio...interestingly the point was made, when you get beyond the 'what is your name' and other small talk listed on a prompt card, where are you supposed to go then if the person being questioned elects to be questioned in Irish as part of a prolonged and complex discussion??

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 02:24PM

SWL wrote: »

Didn't see the question in relation to Sami, but it is a recognised language in Sweden and it can be used when dealing with public officails

Then I'm assuming based on your previous stances you believe that every public official should be able to speak Sami fluently irrespective of how often they actually use it, and that it should be a mandatory subject up until university for all Swedish students?

SWL · 19-03-2013 02:26PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Well please provide me with the correct definition of culture then so I can adjust my views accordingly, and offer a more adequate response.

If you are going to lecture others on your view of culture you should really know what culture is.

You listed hobbies, interests, pastimes nothing to do with culture.

I have pastimes, interests e.g. running, cycling etc but they are not cultural in the correct use of the term.

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 02:33PM

SWL wrote: »

Also you cannont use boards.ie as popular as it is to guage the Irish speaking public to non speakers, just becasue most people agree with you. As an outsider I was made very welcome by Irish speakers, if people don't agree that doesn't mean you are correct as this site has a limited demographic

Nor, frankly, does your limited experience mean you are any more likely to be correct. I'm not using it as proof of my opinion being "right" compared to yours, it merely mirrors mine.

And of course Irish speakers were welcoming to you, you were there to learn Irish, individuals with views like mine are seen as a threat to the primacy of Irish as "the national language" and their perception of "Irish culture" so the discussions aren't nearly so friendly.

SWL · 19-03-2013 02:35PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Then I'm assuming based on your previous stances you believe that every public official should be able to speak Sami fluently irrespective of how often they actually use it, and that it should be a mandatory subject up until university for all Swedish students?

My previous stance on what? I pointed out that many Iirsh people cannot speak their native language, I am correct in this. I also pointed out that many who can't speak it incorrectly blame others for their faliure, I can speak it so why can't an Irsh person, whether they want to speak it in day to day living is theri choice but it is amazing that people on this forum happily say they can't speak any Irish, and anybody who does is a zealot.

If you wish to use Sami with public officials you can. Sami is available in a couple of university, in both north and south.

I am going around in circles here so I will let the reat of you debate the merits of not having an understanding of Irish and how that is somehow a positive in modern Ireland.

SWL · 19-03-2013 02:35PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Nor, frankly, does your limited experience mean you are any more likely to be correct. I'm not using it as proof of my opinion being "right" compared to yours, it merely mirrors mine.

And of course Irish speakers were welcoming to you, you were there to learn Irish, individuals with views like mine are seen as a threat to the primacy of Irish as "the national language" and their perception of "Irish culture" so the discussions aren't nearly so friendly.

Do you speak any language other than English?

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 02:42PM

SWL wrote: »

My previous stance on what? I pointed out that many Iirsh people cannot speak their native language, I am correct in this. I also pointed out that many who can't speak it incorrectly blame others for their faliure, I can speak it so why can't an Irsh person, whether they want to speak it in day to day living is theri choice but it is amazing that people on this forum happily say they can't speak any Irish, and anybody who does is a zealot.

Your responses have implied you believe Irish people should speak Irish (a stance). For the benefit of clarity I will simply ask then: Do you believe Irish people should speak (or at least be fluent in) Irish?

SWL wrote: »

If you wish to use Sami with public officials you can. Sami is available in a couple of university, in both north and south.

That was not my question, I asked if you believe all public officials should be fluent in Sami and do you believe all Swedish children should be educated to be bilingual with Sami regardless of their own wishes?

SWL wrote: »

I am going around in circles here so I will let the reat of you debate the merits of not having an understanding of Irish and how that is somehow a positive in modern Ireland.

It's not a positive (nor have I seen anyone suggest such), it's simply not the overwhelming negative some would like to paint it as being.

ZeitgeistGlee · 19-03-2013 02:49PM

SWL wrote: »

Do you speak any language other than English?

Why, out of curiosity, is that relevant to that line of discussion?

I can only speak English to a fluent degree, however I speak French and Japanese to a relatively proficient degree (both of which I studied formally), along with communicable amounts of Spanish, Italian and Turkish. My Irish would fall somewhere between the latter two groups.

I personally have found all of the above languages (including Japanese) comparatively easier to learn than Irish.

krudler · 19-03-2013 02:51PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Irish is my first language, but I would never impose it on anyone. Let's face it - a language is a tool for communication - if I communicate to a person better in English why would I use Irish?

Far too much common sense in that post I'm afraid, begone!

Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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