Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.

Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

1…1011131516…39

Comments

  • #362
    ZeitgeistGlee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ZeitgeistGlee


    keith16 wrote: »
    I hate the way Mandarin Chinese is always rolled out as a somehow more useful / ultimate language in these arguments. Anyone care to elaborate beyond spouting a tired cliché?

    Because China is one of the world's largest, fastest growing economies and the Chinese government/Chinese business groups regularly invest in other nations (including Ireland). It also allows foreign entrepreneurs/investors to conduct business in China more easily.

    None of the above can be said with regard to Irish.


  • #363
    ZeitgeistGlee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ZeitgeistGlee


    Coles wrote: »
    See this. I come across this a lot. 'Selective Ancestry'. Did you know that if you go back 200 years you had approximately 256 lines of ancestry? And none of them spoke Irish!? There's a far higher likelihood that the vast majority of them did! But you select the ones that suit the your current cultural bias. Interesting, eh?

    So rather than his own example, which pertains to his own family being accurate to what he wants to put forth it's far more likely it supports the sentiment that you want to put forth. I'd definitely describe that as interesting. :rolleyes:

    I've just checked with three generations in my direct family (siblings, parents, grandparents). None of them use or used Irish as their primary tongue at any stage stretching back to 85 years ago. I'm sure of course you'll tell me that some of them did and I'm merely exercising a cultural bias.

    And before I'm accused of being from the Pale, my father's family are from Tipperary and my mother's from Clare, neither of which would be particularly inclined towards Perfidious Albion.
    Coles wrote: »
    I was right. It's an attitiude problem. And you pass it on to the younger generation too. Like all the kids here. You're making excuses for them to be lazy. No doubt you would do it for your own kids too.

    Ah, so we're back to attitude and laziness again while ignoring the state of the Irish curriculum which even Irish proponents have acknowledged aren't working. But hey generalisations are fun and easy so why deprive you of them. :rolleyes:


  • #364
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

    Because China is one of the world's largest, fastest growing economies and the Chinese government/Chinese business groups regularly invest in other nations (including Ireland). It also allows foreign entrepreneurs/investors to conduct business in China more easily.

    None of the above can be said with regard to Irish.

    Context is everything, English is the language of business, the sale of a product is done in the buyers language, and the Chinese are sellers, not buyers. I don't believe the hype, sorry.


  • #365
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »

    According to Wiki, Mandarin has 955 million native speakers. Irish has 133,000.

    Even debating the figures (and I'm sure someone will), Mandarin is spoken by several hundred million more people globally than Irish.

    That doesn't make it more useful as such. China is a country I would like to visit, and would learn a few words if I do visit. But I don't see it ever becoming a dominant language in a European context.

    I'm not saying Irish is better etc. but all this talk of how great Chinese is smacks of armchair analysis tbh.


  • #366
    ZeitgeistGlee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ZeitgeistGlee


    keith16 wrote: »
    the Chinese are sellers, not buyers. I don't believe the hype, sorry.

    The company I've interned with for the last four years sells tens of millions of dollars worth of product into China on an annual basis and intends it to be one of their largest expansion targets.

    "The hype" as you call it is documented economic and financial fact.


  • Advertisement
  • #367
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Coles wrote: »
    Eh? Everywhere I go the language is used on a daily basis. It might be basic greetings or farewells, it might be on radio and
    That's in your world. In the real world, it's not our common language.

    People are paid to speak it on radio and TV. 'Cupla Focal' greetings don't count as actually speaking Irish, nor do the words forced from the mouths of powerless children.

    Did you see the video of the Irish enthusiast who went around trying to speak Irish to people in Dublin? The best conversation he had was with a ticket vending machine which under the OLA had to have an Irish script.


  • #368
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

    The company I've interned with for the last four years sells tens of millions of dollars worth of product into China on an annual basis and intends it to be one of their largest expansion targets.

    "The hype" as you call it is documented economic and financial fact.

    OK, numbers are one thing, but my point relates to the language. Had your company had to start speaking Chinese on a large scale basis?


  • #369
    ZeitgeistGlee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ZeitgeistGlee


    keith16 wrote: »
    OK, numbers are one thing, but my point relates to the language. Had your company had to start speaking Chinese on a large scale basis?

    You asked for why Mandarin Chinese was more useful than Irish and I explained it to you. The company doesn't have a large number of Mandarin speakers relative to the overall workforce no, but there are those who speak it who have direct interaction with the Chinese buyers both pre and post-purchase.


  • #370
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    No offence but this is nonsense. He likely was speaking Irish to try and get out of the ticket and to be awkward with the Guards. Once it became apparent they couldn't speak it, he could have dropped it and spoke English in order to carry on his way and not waste his and their time.

    But it's typical; rather than do what was easy and most effective, he decided to carry on this charade at best to prove a point, at worst to rip the **** out of the Gardai. If the latter and he was mocking them, then he can't complain when the cops get snarky back.

    I think it is deeply sad that someone should have to put up with this kind of crap for simply choosing to speak Irish in their own country. I find it incredible that you would insist on casting an Irish person speaking Irish as either engaging in a charade or mockery rather than just accept their right to speak their language.

    The expectation that Irish Citizens should 'drop it' and speak English rather than be facilitated in using the first language of the state when dealing with the state is quite frankly a nonsense.

    Attitudes like that are an anachronism more suited to the 18 century than the 21st, fortunately they seem to be dying out.


  • #371
    Stained Class
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭Stained Class


    Stained Class wrote: »

    As the poll stands, it's 183 to 70

    The poll still stands at 183 to 70.:confused:

    Have the Language Hawks been up their old tricks again?

    Trying to avoid a complete whitewash? Trying not to see the facts?

    The usual story with this crowd.:rolleyes:


  • Advertisement
  • #372
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

    You asked for why Mandarin Chinese was more useful than Irish and I explained it to you. The company doesn't have a large number of Mandarin speakers relative to the overall workforce no, but there are those who speak it who have direct interaction with the Chinese buyers both pre and post-purchase.

    Nope, I asked why Chinese was touted as the go to language full stop. No doubt that China's economic data has a lot of impressive numbers surrounding it, but that has been the case for some time but it simply won't manifest itself in terms of large numbers of Europeans taking up the language for business reasons.

    People also mention German in this argument and I'd say that language has a lot more going for it than Chinese.


  • #373
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    An Coilean wrote: »
    http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=9465




    Sorry Ikky Poo, I'm not making this up.

    Never said you were - but if you quote something it does help to link to whatever it is you're quoting from.

    I would still disagree he was arreste for speaking Irish. Speaking Irish is not an arrestable offense. It would be a bit pointless having it on the education system if it was. Iwasfrozen comes up with the most likely solution below:
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The man was not arrested for speaking Irish. Claiming he was is sensationalist in the extreme. The man was arrested because the gardai could not identify him.

    As I said, he could have chosen to deal with it on the spot or go back and deal with it at the station. He chose the later. The report does not say why he was handcuffed. It merely puts forward a hypothesis that is unlikley for the reason mentioned above.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #374
    feargale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,634 ✭✭✭feargale


    kowloon wrote: »
    Good point, we really need to correct this and accept that the language of the majority is the first language and that Irish should be a protected minority language.
    In the Free State Constitution Irish and English were accorded equal status, same as the Constitution of Finland a propos Finnish and Swedish. That's more sensible than giving a higher status to the language of a small minority.


  • #375
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    An Coilean wrote: »
    I think it is deeply sad that someone should have to put up with this kind of crap for simply choosing to speak Irish in their own country.

    And I think it is sad that someone could argue in favour of being deliberatly obtrusive with the cops in order to prove a point, regardless of how much time and money will be wasted as a result.

    And that is the key here. No one was arrested for speaking Irish. He was arrested for being awkward and being obtrusive. He could have easily avoided the arrest, but chose not to.


  • #376
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    An Coilean wrote: »
    I think it is deeply sad that someone should have to put up with this kind of crap for simply choosing to speak Irish in their own country.
    Irish speakers must accept the reality that Irish is not our common language and no law or constitutional right will change this fact.

    The person's difficulties stem from failing to use our common language. I wonder how he overcomes his distress at speaking English when he has to to deal with the many Irish people fortunate enough not to be compelled to speak Irish to him?


  • #377
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    keith16 wrote: »
    I hate the way Mandarin Chinese is always rolled out as a somehow more useful / ultimate language in these arguments. Anyone care to elaborate beyond spouting a tired cliché?
    +1000. Mandarin is not going to be a "world language" IMHO. Why? A couple of reasons. For a start, while it may be spoken by a large amount of people, the vast majority are Chinese. French, English and Spanish are spoken by many more people than are French English and Spanish by birth. Secondly it's an tonal language. Pronunciation is everything, get it slightly wrong and the meaning can change hugely. In French, English and Spanish you can have a dodgy accent but the speakers of the language can still understand each other. A German speaking heavily accent english can be understood by a Mexican speaking heavily accent english. With a tonal language like Mandarin and others that ain't gonna happen. It's too complex and rigid over time. Many boast that Chinese folks can read and understand 500 year old texts. TO me that's a major tick against the language.
    Coles wrote: »
    See this. I come across this a lot. 'Selective Ancestry'. Did you know that if you go back 200 years you had approximately 256 lines of ancestry? And none of them spoke Irish!? There's a far higher likelihood that the vast majority of them did! But you select the ones that suit the your current cultural bias. Interesting, eh?
    Hardly interesting as that was my experience growing up and that of my parents, grandparents and great grandparents and beyond. Oh and going back as I have, some of my ancestors spoke French, Spanish and even Basque. So? As for "Selective Ancestry", the male part of my gene map shows me to be of a line that goes right back to the first mesolithic modern humans known on this land near 11,000 years ago. Given the stats on that, I can say with some confidence that I'm likely more "Irish" than you are, yet I have little more than the cupla focal? And as for being thick for not learning it? Oh I'm more than happy to admit to being thick. Hell I demonstrate it on a near daily basis, but I suspect I've lost more knowledge of Irish history after a bad hangover than you have learned in a decade. I could well be wrong, I often am, but so far going on the evidence in black and white pixels in this thread I might just have the edge.
    Me too! Me too! I'm getting pretty old too! I remember all that stuff.
    I was right. It's an attitiude problem. And you pass it on to the younger generation too. Like all the kids here. You're making excuses for them to be lazy. No doubt you would do it for your own kids too.
    You're just making excuses now...
    You really don't plug into the objective debate thang, do you? It's not an "attitiude(sic) problem". It was my reality and funny enough it seems it still seems a similar enough reality for those who are younger than us. We didnt lick it from a stone. It came from somewhere. And no the "the Brits made us insecure" really doesn't explain a damn thing. That's an excuse, if you're looking for the definition of same, which you seem to be.
    keith16 wrote: »
    Context is everything, English is the language of business, the sale of a product is done in the buyers language, and the Chinese are sellers, not buyers. I don't believe the hype, sorry.
    Agreed. Oh soooo agreed K.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #378
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    And that is the key here. No one was arrested for speaking Irish. He was arrested for being awkward and being obtrusive. He could have easily avoided the arrest, but chose not to.

    He was arrested for being awkward and obtrusive?
    I can only assume you are referring to his choice to speak Irish as being awkward and obtrusive as there is no mention of any other action on his part that sticks out as warranting such a label.

    If that is what you are saying, that he was arrested for being awkward and obtrusive by speaking Irish, then he was still arrested for speaking Irish.

    You say he could easily have avoided being arrested by speaking English, the problem with that however is that the onus is not on him to have to speak English. The onus is on the Gardaí to facilitate the people in using Irish should they choose to. It was the Garda in question that was in the wrong, no ifs or buts about it.


  • #379
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    An Coilean wrote: »
    He was arrested for being awkward and obtrusive?

    Will you stop dodging the issue? You know perfectly well the arrest report did not say "speaking Irish".

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #380
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Céard atá ag tarlú anseo


  • #381
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Will you stop dodging the issue? You know perfectly well the arrest report did not say "speaking Irish".

    And your point is? I am not claiming that the report said the person was arrested for 'Speaking Irish' I am saying that someone choose to speak Irish when stopped by a member of the Gardaí and was arrested as a direct result of that choice. That is exactly what the issue here is.


  • Advertisement
  • #382
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Céard atá ag tarlú anseo

    Bí cúramach a mhic ó :(


  • #383
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Céard atá ag tarlú anseo
    Debate?
    An Coilean wrote: »
    Bí cúramach a mhic ó :(
    Very Father Ted.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #384
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    An Coilean wrote: »
    And your point is? I am not claiming that the report said the person was arrested for 'Speaking Irish' I am saying that someone choose to speak Irish when stopped by a member of the Gardaí and was arrested as a direct result of that choice. That is exactly what the issue here is.

    Here's the post that started it off.
    Coles wrote: »
    Eh? Getting arrested by a Garda for speaking Irish, perhaps? When you're feeling lost in a thread always refer back to the opening post.

    Coles was quite clear and quite wrong.

    Based on the evidence, he was probably arrrested for failing to communicate with a member of the Civil Guards. Had he not been able to speak a common language with said guards, you'd have had a point. Choices have consequences. Not communicating with the guards is one of them.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #385
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Debate?

    Very Father Ted.

    Is tusa atá á rá 'Down with that sort of thing'


  • #386
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Here's the post that started it off.



    Coles was quite clear and quite wrong.

    Actually no, it was the OP that started it off.
    An Coimisinéir Teanga is at it again, forcing an Irish language awareness programme on the Gardaí

    This came about on foot of the investigation he carried out into the incident where someone was arrested as a result of choosing to speak Irish.


  • #387
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    An Coilean wrote: »

    Actually no, it was the OP that started it off.



    This came about on foot of the investigation he carried out into the incident where someone was arrested as a result of choosing to speak Irish.
    So basically this.

    Forced to speak English = bad
    Forced to speak Irish = good

    Good to know language rights go one way with you. No doubt you will tell me the guard had to speak Irish because of their job but since when did ones profession alter ones human rights? Unless language rights are not a human right in which case we can save ourselves a lot of time here.


  • #388
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Is tusa atá á rá 'Down with that sort of thing'
    Yea and how would you put the latter as Gaelige AC? May with your leave nick it for my sig. Just to confuse folks :)

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #389
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Actually no, it was the OP that started it off.


    This came about on foot of the investigation he carried out into the incident where someone was arrested as a result of choosing to speak Irish.

    This came about because Coles raised the specific case of a man being arrested for failing to comply with the gardai. Don't make me waste posts.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #390
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    An Coilean wrote: »
    .You say he could easily have avoided being arrested by speaking English, the problem with that however is that the onus is not on him to have to speak English. The onus is on the Gardaí to facilitate the people in using Irish should they choose to. It was the Garda in question that was in the wrong, no ifs or buts about it.
    Given that this is an English-speaking country, based on common sense, it is unreasonable to expect all members of the Gardai to be fluent in Irish.

    You can pass all the laws you like, you can threaten state officials with jail, you can, for a while, force children to speak Irish, but you cannot defy the obvious will of the people.


  • Advertisement
  • #391
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Can I ask everyone to please post translations when they post Irish, not just because some of us can't speak and understand it, but because a mod has already said it's the rules of the forum.
    An Coilean wrote: »
    He was arrested for being awkward and obtrusive?
    I can only assume you are referring to his choice to speak Irish as being awkward and obtrusive as there is no mention of any other action on his part that sticks out as warranting such a label.

    If that is what you are saying, that he was arrested for being awkward and obtrusive by speaking Irish, then he was still arrested for speaking Irish.

    An Coilean, you're making it sound as if the Gardai pulled him over, heard him speak a word of Irish and arrested him for that. That would be arresting him for speaking Irish.

    However, it's obvious that's not what happened. He was pulled over. He was asked to communicate with the officer. The defender asked to do so through Irish and the officer would have made it clear that was not an option at the scene. This was the time at which the point was proven. You're right, there should be an option to speak Irish, but there obviously wasn't at this moment. At this stage, the point was proven and he could have lodged an official complaint.

    Instead, he chose to continue speaking in a manner which disrupted the scene of the crime (speeding if I remember correctly), deliberately being obstructive to the continuation of the ticket giving. At this stage, he could have continued in English, asking for the officer's details to lodge the complaint about his inability to speak Irish, but taking his punishment and letting the whole thing end right there. Instead, he tried to push on, causing problems for the officers and refusing to co-operate with them. It's this that he was arrested for.

    Irish was the method he chose to be obstructive. It could have been Klingon, Chinese or utter nonsense rambling. The tool he used was not relevant at this stage of the conflict. It was the fact he was being obtrusive that caused the problems, not how he was being obtrusive.
    You say he could easily have avoided being arrested by speaking English, the problem with that however is that the onus is not on him to have to speak English. The onus is on the Gardaí to facilitate the people in using Irish should they choose to. It was the Garda in question that was in the wrong, no ifs or buts about it.

    And the onus is on the guy who broke the law to co-operate with the officers in order to not waste further time on them having to deal with him. You're trying to defend someone who broke the law and then decided to be deliberately awkward with the officers as well.


Advertisement