The myth of the "welfare scrounger"

oppenheimer1 · 15-03-2013 11:12PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There is no myth, its fact. You just have to walk around Dublin City Centre to see them. NOBODY is saying that all people on welfare are scroungers. Its not even a majority.

I say that as somebody that is on Social Welfare. Go to a monthly sign on and stand in the queue for 20 mins and you will realise the percentage of scroungers to people that have fallen on bad times. Its a high percentage and the place stinks of booze. You can easily spot the scroungers and the people that are mortified to be there.

The difference between the people the OP mentioned and the people you see wandering around Dublin, is that they are actually on a form of disability allowance afaik. Hence the free travel pass.

Richard Hillman · 15-03-2013 11:17PM

Munstermissy wrote: »

Not everybody is mortified to be there, it's s fact of life in this day and age. I have spent the last 15 months on the dole after having worked the last 23 years. Im not a scrounger and certainly was not mortified signing on.

Glad to say, I signed off two weeks ago and back working again. Happy bloody days:)

Sorry, I meant mortified to be even standing in a queue with some of the people that populate the monthly sign on. I personally have been embarrassed to be there purely for some of the people you encounter.

Congrats on the job too. Signing off is such a satisfactory experience.

Dwork · 15-03-2013 11:24PM

professore wrote: »

Ours is FAR more generous.

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

amtw · 15-03-2013 11:51PM

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

I don't know that I would totally agree with you. My experience is that it depends what benefit you are applying for. State Pension, One Parent Family Payment, Child Benefit, Free Travel, Household Benefit; among others are very efficient sections within the Department of Social Protection and usually they have no problem making speedy payments to anyone who is entitled to them. The main problems are with sectors that deal with allowances, such as Disability Allowance, Domicilary Care Care Allowance, Carers Allowance, etc. There is a perception, rightly in some cases, that these payments are open to abuse and the officials dealing with claims make it as difficult as possible for people to get a payment unless they can prove that the applicants are entitled to them. Unfortunately this means that some people who are entitled are made to jump through hoops to get a payment.
It can't be denied that there is and has been a high level of fraudulent claims which has resulted in suspicion that everyone is trying to cheat the system which has lead to genuine claimants being denied thier entitlement and being left feeling humiliated by the experience.

bleg · 15-03-2013 11:59PM

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good.

If you have a medical card (which you qualify for if you're on the dole) then you also get free healthcare apart from a €1.50 prescription levy per item.

Dwork · 16-03-2013 12:01AM

amtw wrote: »

I don't know that I would totally agree with you. My experience is that it depends what benefit you are applying for. State Pension, One Parent Family Payment, Child Benefit, Free Travel, Household Benefit; among others are very efficient sections within the Department of Social Protection and usually they have no problem making speedy payments to anyone who is entitled to them. The main problems are with sectors that deal with allowances, such as Disability Allowance, Domicilary Care Care Allowance, Carers Allowance, etc. There is a perception, rightly in some cases, that these payments are open to abuse and the officials dealing with claims make it as difficult as possible for people to get a payment unless they can prove that the applicants are entitled to them. Unfortunately this means that some people who are entitled are made to jump through hoops to get a payment.
It can't be denied that there is and has been a high level of fraudulent claims which has resulted in suspicion that everyone is trying to cheat the system which has lead to genuine claimants being denied thier entitlement and being left feeling humiliated by the experience.

I don't know that I would totally agree with you. (stick a few myths after this to flesh out my post) Also, on the one above, that's a big "if" Bleg.

Scruffles · 16-03-2013 12:46AM

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. >Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.<

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

no,they do that here to as regards to disability benefits; DLA,income support/incapacity benefit and its soon to be replaced by; ESA.

speaking from own experiences,support staff of mine had fought near enough for two years to get high rate mobility of DLA under the 'severe mental impairment with severe behavioral difficulty' criteria,staff woud send off new applications,a ton of extra evidence each time to the point it required courier delivery and each time it was turned down-was told HRM is only for wheel chair users,to add insult to injury they said because am not a wheel chair user; am able to get around and access the community;actualy am completely unable to access the community and cannot access public or semi public transport,and not only that-was living with other residents awarded the benefit under the damn criteria.

had never understood how the department of work and pensions had managed to miss one of their own criteria, along with many benefit sites who were also wrongly telling people that low rate mobility is for mental impairment and high rate mobility is for physical impairment,absolute BS.
staff in the end requested a tribunal and because of disabilities was represented by the social worker and speech and language therapist of mine;both who had known for a long time,the tribunal were only just getting into it when they said it shoud never have been left to get this far by the DWP and it was a unanimous decision for a life award/HRM.
it has completely changed life and allows for basic freedoms and independance that non disabled people dont have to think about.

a high number of applications end up at a tribunal level,especialy mental impairments of any kind because theyre more complex in how they show and greatly vary from one to another.

16-03-2013 12:51AM

Our system is very different to the UK's. The Uk's issue is the numbers claiming on the sick, that's what keeps their "unemployment rate" low.

Dwork · 16-03-2013 01:02AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Our system is very different to the UK's. The Uk's issue is the numbers claiming on the sick, that's what keeps their "unemployment rate" low.

The UKs issue is the workforce is nuts. Basically. I work over there a lot and the word "productivity" is a swear word tbh. They do do good Benefit though, IMOHO. Low but with good flow.

K-9 · 16-03-2013 01:02AM

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

Irish Revenue are actually very, very good, would put many private sector multi-nationals to shame for customer service. I'd just be insistent on who I speak to for advice, if its a technical issue you need a solid opinion from higher ups.

Dwork · 16-03-2013 01:15AM

K-9 wrote: »

Irish Revenue are actually very, very good, would put many private sector multi-nationals to shame for customer service. I'd just be insistent on who I speak to for advice, if its a technical issue you need a solid opinion from higher ups.

Uk revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, we overcharged you, here's your cheque".
Irl Revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, you're a week late with your payment, despite the tens of thousands of euro you gave us last week. Pay up or the sheriff will be round-you have seven days, cnuty b0llox".

ArtSmart · 16-03-2013 01:32AM

mattjack wrote: »

As a tracksuit wearing single mother of four , two of whom are in prison and one of whom is the offspring of a Nigerian Prince , I would like to register my wholehearted agreement with you .My other son is a left handed taxi driving Dutch Gold drinking reprobate too.

hey, hey, hey - easy dude.

left handed people are human too.

more or less.

16-03-2013 02:14AM

Also the long-term figures are hard to pin down in Ireland. If someone does a FAS course for a month a year (jobs club or whatever) then they'll never spend a full year on the dole.

K-9 · 16-03-2013 10:19AM

Dwork wrote: »

Uk revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, we overcharged you, here's your cheque".
Irl Revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, you're a week late with your payment, despite the tens of thousands of euro you gave us last week. Pay up or the sheriff will be round-you have seven days, cnuty b0llox".

That isn't my experience of Irish Revenue at all, when I dealt with both I found the UK Customs much harsher, its been a few years though.

King of Kings · 16-03-2013 10:25AM

Dwork wrote: »

Uk revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, we overcharged you, here's your cheque".
Irl Revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, you're a week late with your payment, despite the tens of thousands of euro you gave us last week. Pay up or the sheriff will be round-you have seven days, cnuty b0llox".

what you posted is a load of bollocks.

Have you actually dealt with the revenue

the revenue is very well run and they don't shaft anybody who either

1. hasn't been previously warned
2. or does not act the bollocks

I've had many business and personal dealings with them -and at times have been late or wrong and they have been decent and agreeable at all times.

however the CRO are a different animal with their fines on a daily basis for late returns or claiming that you are late and you needing to prove taht you are not.
essentially everything to the CRO needs to be registered cos they are mean bastards.
Revenue are very easy to deal with

DEFTLEFTHAND · 16-03-2013 10:30AM

The Middle class claps slowly, oh yeah they pay for everything and are entitled to nothing.

IM0 · 16-03-2013 10:36AM

Id like to see the same study in the article, but in the previous 10 years, as in the boom. Trying to find scroungers true extent is dumb after the recession hit and employment went from 4% to about 15%. show me THAT study of those years and it might be worth reading, thats 2000 - 2006/7

Annasopra · 16-03-2013 10:37AM

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

Basically they are not comparable.

mikemac1 · 16-03-2013 10:40AM

OP, that study is about job seekers.

Come join me on Dublin Bus 40 and the boyos with their cardboard passes and causing hassle upstairs are not on job seekers, they are on disability.

You don't get a travel pass on job seekers

IM0 · 16-03-2013 10:43AM

bleg wrote: »

If you have a medical card (which you qualify for if you're on the dole) then you also get free healthcare apart from a €1.50 prescription levy per item.

not strictly true

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/entitlement_to_health_services/medical_card.html

SB2013 · 16-03-2013 10:49AM

Dwork wrote: »

Uk revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, we overcharged you, here's your cheque".
Irl Revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, you're a week late with your payment, despite the tens of thousands of euro you gave us last week. Pay up or the sheriff will be round-you have seven days, cnuty b0llox".

Is that you Mick Wallace?

bleg · 16-03-2013 10:50AM

IM0 wrote: »

not strictly true

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/entitlement_to_health_services/medical_card.html

Did you read it yourself?

"According to the HSE's guidelines, if your income is derived solely from Social Welfare allowances or benefits or HSE allowances you should be granted a medical card even though your payment is in excess of the Income Guidelines for your age and situation."

kneemos · 16-03-2013 10:58AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

OP, that study is about job seekers.

Come join me on Dublin Bus 40 and the boyos with their cardboard passes and causing hassle upstairs are not on job seekers, they are on disability.

You don't get a travel pass on job seekers

It's very difficult disability benefit,even for serious illnesses they only give it for three or six months at a time.

SB2013 · 16-03-2013 11:07AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

OP, that study is about job seekers.

Come join me on Dublin Bus 40 and the boyos with their cardboard passes and causing hassle upstairs are not on job seekers, they are on disability.

You don't get a travel pass on job seekers

Most of them do have a disability. How they got it and wether they deserve the benefit is another matter.

Annasopra · 16-03-2013 11:31AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

OP, that study is about job seekers.

Come join me on Dublin Bus 40 and the boyos with their cardboard passes and causing hassle upstairs are not on job seekers, they are on disability.

You don't get a travel pass on job seekers

Oh right yeah ok

I get it now the lazy generalisation is now that all disabled people are scroungers

Pappa Charlie · 16-03-2013 11:35AM

mango salsa wrote: »

Oh right yeah ok

I get it now the lazy generalisation is now that all disabled people are scroungers

That's not what he said! Anyone on here who thinks everyone on welfare is a scrounger is a fool but likewise defending all on welfare is a joke, there are scrounger a out there and the system is being abused and its tax payers money that's being wasted! The scale of it is the debate!

kneemos · 16-03-2013 11:37AM

There was a similar scrounger attitude back in the eighties when the unployment figure was even higher than now,don't know how some people can't comprehend fewer jobs means higher unemployment.

mikemac1 · 16-03-2013 11:44AM

mango salsa wrote: »

Oh right yeah ok

I get it now the lazy generalisation is now that all disabled people are scroungers

I never wrote that

Uriel. · 16-03-2013 11:59AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

I never wrote that

Of course you didn't and the poster knows that. But you forget the 7 second boards rule... Everyone 7 seconds a poster somewhere on boards has to get offended.

I'm not sure if that's a qualifying disability for a free travel pass yet but perhaps soon. Though it's usually only temporary before the problem moves to a different poster

Pappa Charlie · 16-03-2013 12:00PM

kneemos wrote: »

There was a similar scrounger attitude back in the eighties when the unployment figure was even higher than now,don't know how some people can't comprehend fewer jobs means higher unemployment.

Fewer jobs mean higher unemployment, that doesn't mean that their isn't welfare fraud, vast majority of people hate being on welfare and I've been on welfare for a short period in the early 90's after being laid off, it's a terrible place to be for people who want to work and I've never forgotten it, but there are people out their who make no effort and see it as a career choice so to speak, they are the people I'm taking about not genuine people who want to work but can't get it, defending everyone on welfare is disingenuous, it's tightening up but is still only scratching at the surface and its the elephant in the room for this government who don't appear to want to take it on, meanwhile the taxpayer is getting screwed!

The myth of the "welfare scrounger"

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