The myth of the "welfare scrounger"

Tiddlypeeps

Pretty interesting article about people on social welfare in the UK.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/myth-welfare-scrounger

The analysis looks at the benefit claims history, going back four years, of people who made a claim for unemployment benefit in 2010-11. For a sample group of 32-33 year olds who claimed Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) in 2010-11, 40 per cent of them had not made a claim before in that period. Sixty three per cent had spent no more than six months of the previous four years on JSA. And almost four out of five claimants had spent at least three quarters of the past four years off the dole. The idea that these claimants are 'trapped' in a 'dependency culture' is absurd.

I think we have a similar social welfare system to the UK and we definitely have a large number of vocal people here that view the social welfare system as a trap so I would like to see a similar study for people on social welfare in this country. I would imagine the results would be fairly similar but I could be very wrong.

The title of the article is fairly misleading because the stats don't really prove that welfare scroungers don't exist, they just show that they make up at most 11% of all people on Jobseekers. What it does essentially prove tho is that the social welfare system is not a trap and the vast majority of people don't get stuck.

I would most like to see a study like this done over here because if it showed that we don't have an issue with people getting trapped in the social welfare system then any resources spent on addressing that issue are misplaced. If it turned out that it is an issue over here then we should look into closer modeling our welfare system on that of the UK.

Richard Hillman

There is no myth, its fact. You just have to walk around Dublin City Centre to see them. NOBODY is saying that all people on welfare are scroungers. Its not even a majority.

I say that as somebody that is on Social Welfare. Go to a monthly sign on and stand in the queue for 20 mins and you will realise the percentage of scroungers to people that have fallen on bad times. Its a high percentage and the place stinks of booze. You can easily spot the scroungers and the people that are mortified to be there.

Fr_Dougal

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I think we have a similar social welfare system to the UK.

You're wrong.

senorwipesalot

Go for it OP,sounds like fun.

lazygal

Anyone know how I can get started scrounging?

Tiddlypeeps

senorwipesalot wrote: »

Go for it OP,sounds like fun.

That information isn't publicly available

Nodin

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There is no myth, its fact. You just have to walk around Dublin City Centre to see them. NOBODY is saying that all people on welfare are scroungers. Its not even a majority.
I say that as somebody that is on Social Welfare. Go to a monthly sign on and stand in the queue for 20 mins and you will realise the percentage of scroungers to people that have fallen on bad times. Its a high percentage and the place stinks of booze.
.......

For a second there I was worried this thread would be drowned with yet more anecdotal tales that back up their posters bias' but no.....

No more nonsense

Untrue, we have single mothers, scangers and god knows what other despicable creature making a living off of milking the hard working taxpayer. If I had my way these people wouldn't be allowed welfare unless I could see they were looking for a job. Get off your hole scroungers and do a descent days work like the rest of us.



Mod: Troll has been banned.

kneemos

The celtic tiger proved that we don't have scroungers,people want to work.The three or four percent unemployed we had during the tiger years was made up of the unemployable or those between jobs.

professore

I think we have a similar social welfare system to the UK

Ours is FAR more generous.

SB2013

What's all this about being "trapped"? Welfare scroungers aren't trapped. They are right where they want to be. It's the genuine down on their luck people that are the trapped ones.

Logical_Bear

No more nonsense wrote: »

Untrue, we have single mothers, scangers and god knows what other despicable creature making a living off of milking the hard working taxpayer. If I had my way these people wouldn't be allowed welfare unless I could see they were looking for a job. Get off your hole scroungers and do a descent days work like the rest of us.

shut up

Wompa1

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Pretty interesting article about people on social welfare in the UK.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/myth-welfare-scrounger



I think we have a similar social welfare system to the UK and we definitely have a large number of vocal people here that view the social welfare system as a trap so I would like to see a similar study for people on social welfare in this country. I would imagine the results would be fairly similar but I could be very wrong.

The title of the article is fairly misleading because the stats don't really prove that welfare scroungers don't exist, they just show that they make up at most 11% of all people on Jobseekers. What it does essentially prove tho is that the social welfare system is not a trap and the vast majority of people don't get stuck.

I would most like to see a study like this done over here because if it showed that we don't have an issue with people getting trapped in the social welfare system then any resources spent on addressing that issue are misplaced. If it turned out that it is an issue over here then we should look into closer modeling our welfare system on that of the UK.

Would be tough to correlate the data from the Jobseekers to number of mature students enrolling and emigration..

mattjack

No more nonsense wrote: »

Untrue, we have single mothers, scangers and god knows what other despicable creature making a living off of milking the hard working taxpayer. If I had my way these people wouldn't be allowed welfare unless I could see they were looking for a job. Get off your hole scroungers and do a descent days work like the rest of us.

As a tracksuit wearing single mother of four , two of whom are in prison and one of whom is the offspring of a Nigerian Prince , I would like to register my wholehearted agreement with you .My other son is a left handed taxi driving Dutch Gold drinking reprobate too.

kneemos

Most of the money these so called scroungers get goes back to the government in tax so iu doesn't matter.

My name is URL

professore wrote: »

Ours is FAR more generous.

For some it's relatively more generous, but that's down to poor administration etc more than anything else. The UK pumps a lot more money into areas departmentally unrelated to yet intrinsic to social 'welfare' as a whole.

mlumley

No more nonsense wrote: »

Untrue, we have single mothers, scangers and god knows what other despicable creature making a living off of milking the hard working taxpayer. If I had my way these people wouldn't be allowed welfare unless I could see they were looking for a job. Get off your hole scroungers and do a descent days work like the rest of us.

And if you live in a rural area, or an area of high unemployment and people in your areaare getting laid off, (240 where I live just got notice of their jobs going), where are the jobs???????

By f**k, I'd love one. But who is going to employ a 62 y.o man with no trade.

If jobs are so plentifull, go find me one, I can start Tuesday.

Cuddlesworth

I'd like to see a similar study across the age ranges.

Tiddlypeeps

kneemos wrote: »

Most of the money these so called scroungers get goes back to the government in tax so iu doesn't matter.

What? I know tax is high, but I wasn't aware it had hit 100% just yet.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I'd like to see a similar study across the age ranges.

Ye I would like to see that too. I'm not sure why the study only looks at such a small age group.

I'm thinking maybe it's because that age group might be considered the most employable? (don't even know if that's true) So it isolates the study to people who are the most likely to have jobs available too them. Showing that when people have jobs available to them the vast majority will take them. Maybe? Just a guess.

stunmer

kneemos wrote: »

Most of the money these so called scroungers get goes back to the government in tax so iu doesn't matter.

How so?

bleg

kneemos wrote: »

Most of the money these so called scroungers get goes back to the government in tax so iu doesn't matter.

Ah sure that's grand. I suppose that covers the cost of their medical card yea?

steddyeddy

4-5% of the workforce were unemployed during the celtic tiger. I believe in evidence not general feelings and the evidence says there are very very few welfare scroungers. They are certainly not responsible for the recession in Ireland.

kneemos

stunmer wrote: »

How so?

Tax on beer and tobacco if you believe what some here seem to think,granted there are some in every area that spend their dole on drink but are a tiny minority of those unemployed.

joebloggs32

kneemos wrote: »

The celtic tiger proved that we don't have scroungers,people want to work.The three or four percent unemployed we had during the tiger years was made up of the unemployable or those between jobs.

There was over 150k on the dole in the boom and we had to import labour from all over Europe to fill gaps in the workforce. I would say that amounts to quite a lot of scroungers in this small country. I know a certain amount would have been between jobs, but it wasn't hard to find one at the time if you really wanted one.

Pushtrak

As expected, people posting here who buy into the Poor Law rhetoric.

Munstermissy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There is no myth, its fact. You just have to walk around Dublin City Centre to see them. NOBODY is saying that all people on welfare are scroungers. Its not even a majority.

I say that as somebody that is on Social Welfare. Go to a monthly sign on and stand in the queue for 20 mins and you will realise the percentage of scroungers to people that have fallen on bad times. Its a high percentage and the place stinks of booze. You can easily spot the scroungers and the people that are mortified to be there.

Not everybody is mortified to be there, it's s fact of life in this day and age. I have spent the last 15 months on the dole after having worked the last 23 years. Im not a scrounger and certainly was not mortified signing on.

Glad to say, I signed off two weeks ago and back working again. Happy bloody days:)

hatrickpatrick

The anti-dole venom in the Irish media at the moment is very similar to the public vs private sector "civil war" - it's all a concocted campaign of "divide and rule" by the politicians and the financial sector to distract us from attacking the people who actually deserve it.
There are people around here who have more disdain for their fellow ordinary citizens than they do for corrupt politicians and banksters, which is all the evidence you need that this campaign has worked. And while the people continue to swallow these cues and battle eachother, people like Bertie are still getting money from the exchequer, bankers are still being paid six figure bonuses from the exchequer, Noonan & Kenny are still personally overriding salary caps for their political advisors, paid by the exchequer, and nobody is doing a f*cking thing about it.
Meanwhile anyone who tries to start any form of protest against this continued atrocity is dismissed as a hippy, a crank, and so on. :mad:

RayM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

There was over 150k on the dole in the boom and we had to import labour from all over Europe to fill gaps in the workforce.

Only a fraction of those people were long-term unemployed.

Chuck Stone

Even when it was the bears I knew it was those black, Arab, single mother, Travellers with their pram schemes.

Geuze

In many studies, NESC have found high rates of dependency on means-tested social transfers in Ireland.

It's not a myth.

The numbers of JSB/JSA may have fallen during the strong econ expansion of 1994-2006, but the numbers on disability and OPFP increased.

See here:

http://files.nesc.ie/nesc_reports/en/NESC_113.pdf

NESC report 113

In particular, see page 2

Also see graph 3.2 on p53.

Dwork

lazygal wrote: »

Anyone know how I can get started scrounging?

Walk around filling station forecourts asking "Sorry, do you speak english?" Take it from there.:)

oppenheimer1

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There is no myth, its fact. You just have to walk around Dublin City Centre to see them. NOBODY is saying that all people on welfare are scroungers. Its not even a majority.

I say that as somebody that is on Social Welfare. Go to a monthly sign on and stand in the queue for 20 mins and you will realise the percentage of scroungers to people that have fallen on bad times. Its a high percentage and the place stinks of booze. You can easily spot the scroungers and the people that are mortified to be there.

The difference between the people the OP mentioned and the people you see wandering around Dublin, is that they are actually on a form of disability allowance afaik. Hence the free travel pass.

Richard Hillman

Munstermissy wrote: »

Not everybody is mortified to be there, it's s fact of life in this day and age. I have spent the last 15 months on the dole after having worked the last 23 years. Im not a scrounger and certainly was not mortified signing on.

Glad to say, I signed off two weeks ago and back working again. Happy bloody days:)

Sorry, I meant mortified to be even standing in a queue with some of the people that populate the monthly sign on. I personally have been embarrassed to be there purely for some of the people you encounter.

Congrats on the job too. Signing off is such a satisfactory experience.

Dwork

professore wrote: »

Ours is FAR more generous.

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

amtw

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

I don't know that I would totally agree with you. My experience is that it depends what benefit you are applying for. State Pension, One Parent Family Payment, Child Benefit, Free Travel, Household Benefit; among others are very efficient sections within the Department of Social Protection and usually they have no problem making speedy payments to anyone who is entitled to them. The main problems are with sectors that deal with allowances, such as Disability Allowance, Domicilary Care Care Allowance, Carers Allowance, etc. There is a perception, rightly in some cases, that these payments are open to abuse and the officials dealing with claims make it as difficult as possible for people to get a payment unless they can prove that the applicants are entitled to them. Unfortunately this means that some people who are entitled are made to jump through hoops to get a payment.
It can't be denied that there is and has been a high level of fraudulent claims which has resulted in suspicion that everyone is trying to cheat the system which has lead to genuine claimants being denied thier entitlement and being left feeling humiliated by the experience.

bleg

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good.

If you have a medical card (which you qualify for if you're on the dole) then you also get free healthcare apart from a €1.50 prescription levy per item.

Dwork

amtw wrote: »

I don't know that I would totally agree with you. My experience is that it depends what benefit you are applying for. State Pension, One Parent Family Payment, Child Benefit, Free Travel, Household Benefit; among others are very efficient sections within the Department of Social Protection and usually they have no problem making speedy payments to anyone who is entitled to them. The main problems are with sectors that deal with allowances, such as Disability Allowance, Domicilary Care Care Allowance, Carers Allowance, etc. There is a perception, rightly in some cases, that these payments are open to abuse and the officials dealing with claims make it as difficult as possible for people to get a payment unless they can prove that the applicants are entitled to them. Unfortunately this means that some people who are entitled are made to jump through hoops to get a payment.
It can't be denied that there is and has been a high level of fraudulent claims which has resulted in suspicion that everyone is trying to cheat the system which has lead to genuine claimants being denied thier entitlement and being left feeling humiliated by the experience.

I don't know that I would totally agree with you. (stick a few myths after this to flesh out my post) Also, on the one above, that's a big "if" Bleg.

Scruffles

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. >Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.<

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

no,they do that here to as regards to disability benefits; DLA,income support/incapacity benefit and its soon to be replaced by; ESA.

speaking from own experiences,support staff of mine had fought near enough for two years to get high rate mobility of DLA under the 'severe mental impairment with severe behavioral difficulty' criteria,staff woud send off new applications,a ton of extra evidence each time to the point it required courier delivery and each time it was turned down-was told HRM is only for wheel chair users,to add insult to injury they said because am not a wheel chair user; am able to get around and access the community;actualy am completely unable to access the community and cannot access public or semi public transport,and not only that-was living with other residents awarded the benefit under the damn criteria.

had never understood how the department of work and pensions had managed to miss one of their own criteria, along with many benefit sites who were also wrongly telling people that low rate mobility is for mental impairment and high rate mobility is for physical impairment,absolute BS.
staff in the end requested a tribunal and because of disabilities was represented by the social worker and speech and language therapist of mine;both who had known for a long time,the tribunal were only just getting into it when they said it shoud never have been left to get this far by the DWP and it was a unanimous decision for a life award/HRM.
it has completely changed life and allows for basic freedoms and independance that non disabled people dont have to think about.

a high number of applications end up at a tribunal level,especialy mental impairments of any kind because theyre more complex in how they show and greatly vary from one to another.

Our system is very different to the UK's. The Uk's issue is the numbers claiming on the sick, that's what keeps their "unemployment rate" low.

Dwork

Deleted User wrote: »

Our system is very different to the UK's. The Uk's issue is the numbers claiming on the sick, that's what keeps their "unemployment rate" low.

The UKs issue is the workforce is nuts. Basically. I work over there a lot and the word "productivity" is a swear word tbh. They do do good Benefit though, IMOHO. Low but with good flow.

K-9

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

Irish Revenue are actually very, very good, would put many private sector multi-nationals to shame for customer service. I'd just be insistent on who I speak to for advice, if its a technical issue you need a solid opinion from higher ups.

Dwork

K-9 wrote: »

Irish Revenue are actually very, very good, would put many private sector multi-nationals to shame for customer service. I'd just be insistent on who I speak to for advice, if its a technical issue you need a solid opinion from higher ups.

Uk revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, we overcharged you, here's your cheque".
Irl Revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, you're a week late with your payment, despite the tens of thousands of euro you gave us last week. Pay up or the sheriff will be round-you have seven days, cnuty b0llox".

ArtSmart

mattjack wrote: »

As a tracksuit wearing single mother of four , two of whom are in prison and one of whom is the offspring of a Nigerian Prince , I would like to register my wholehearted agreement with you .My other son is a left handed taxi driving Dutch Gold drinking reprobate too.

hey, hey, hey - easy dude.


left handed people are human too.


more or less.

Also the long-term figures are hard to pin down in Ireland. If someone does a FAS course for a month a year (jobs club or whatever) then they'll never spend a full year on the dole.

K-9

Dwork wrote: »

Uk revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, we overcharged you, here's your cheque".
Irl Revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, you're a week late with your payment, despite the tens of thousands of euro you gave us last week. Pay up or the sheriff will be round-you have seven days, cnuty b0llox".

That isn't my experience of Irish Revenue at all, when I dealt with both I found the UK Customs much harsher, its been a few years though.

King of Kings

Dwork wrote: »

Uk revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, we overcharged you, here's your cheque".
Irl Revenue-"Hi Mr Dwork, you're a week late with your payment, despite the tens of thousands of euro you gave us last week. Pay up or the sheriff will be round-you have seven days, cnuty b0llox".

what you posted is a load of bollocks.

Have you actually dealt with the revenue

the revenue is very well run and they don't shaft anybody who either

1. hasn't been previously warned
2. or does not act the bollocks


I've had many business and personal dealings with them -and at times have been late or wrong and they have been decent and agreeable at all times.

however the CRO are a different animal with their fines on a daily basis for late returns or claiming that you are late and you needing to prove taht you are not.
essentially everything to the CRO needs to be registered cos they are mean bastards.
Revenue are very easy to deal with

DEFTLEFTHAND

The Middle class claps slowly, oh yeah they pay for everything and are entitled to nothing.

IM0

Id like to see the same study in the article, but in the previous 10 years, as in the boom. Trying to find scroungers true extent is dumb after the recession hit and employment went from 4% to about 15%. show me THAT study of those years and it might be worth reading, thats 2000 - 2006/7

Annasopra

Dwork wrote: »

Hmm. It is and yet it isn't. Uk has free healthcare, totally free and very good. They are also of the mind to "give you your benefits", ie actually tell you what you are entitled to and then actually pay you that. Here, they do their damnest to hide, obfusticate, block and delay your actual entitlements(if you are genuinely in need of welfare) and if you don't ask, you don't get and they don't tell.

UK revenue is similar. Here you need a tax lawyer and a translator, There, it is much, much more transparent.

Anyone with a UK pension will know what I mean(I don't, but my ma does).

Basically they are not comparable.

mikemac1

OP, that study is about job seekers.

Come join me on Dublin Bus 40 and the boyos with their cardboard passes and causing hassle upstairs are not on job seekers, they are on disability.

You don't get a travel pass on job seekers

IM0

bleg wrote: »

If you have a medical card (which you qualify for if you're on the dole) then you also get free healthcare apart from a €1.50 prescription levy per item.

not strictly true

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/entitlement_to_health_services/medical_card.html