Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Micky Dolenz · 13-03-2013 03:21PM

I was out with some Donegal based Boardsies a while back and it was lovely to hear them chat away and have the laugh in Irish. It is more natural for them to chat to each other in Irish then English. During the course of the evening, other speakers of the language were drawn to them. It was an interesting experience all round and something I would like to hear more off.

topper75 · 13-03-2013 03:32PM

Could never figure out how the anti-Gaeilge brigade don't just decamp to the UK.

Too much effort? Of course, maybe that is why they failed to acquire Gaeilge in the first place. Can't fault the consistency.

They mightn't have been listening too carefully in Civics class either. Irish is the first official language according to our constitution. What gives with the Polish references?

Chips Lovell · 13-03-2013 03:35PM

Maybe everyone in Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand should decamp to the UK too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-03-2013 03:46PM

topper75 wrote: »

Could never figure out how the anti-Gaeilge brigade don't just decamp to the UK.

Too much effort? Of course, maybe that is why they failed to acquire Gaeilge in the first place. Can't fault the consistency.

They mightn't have been listening too carefully in Civics class either. Irish is the first official language according to our constitution. What gives with the Polish references?

While not of the anti-Gaelige brigade (only slightly less mythical than the PC-brigade) I did decamp to Berlin. Assuming that solidarity with the language is your point, should I have learnt German as a native first?

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

On the same note, how many people could solve a quadratic equation or do long division by hand now?

If you need it, study it. If you don't, don't. Simple. Goes for evey subject.

Wibbs · 13-03-2013 04:20PM

topper75 wrote: »

Could never figure out how the anti-Gaeilge brigade don't just decamp to the UK.

If you mean non Irish speakers, then Ireland would be significantly depopulated if they were to follow your suggestion.

Too much effort? Of course, maybe that is why they failed to acquire Gaeilge in the first place. Can't fault the consistency.

Funny that all of them acquired English and many other subjects at school at the same time. Easy jibe to make, but ultimately full of holes as an argument.

They mightn't have been listening too carefully in Civics class either. Irish is the first official language according to our constitution.

"it's de law and de law is de law" Circular argument is circular. Indeed it makes a joke of that part of the constitution when the vast majority of people in this nation don't understand the language beyond a cupla focal. Even among those who claim to speak it, a goodly proportion have nothing near fluency, as a native speaking childhood mate originally from Donegal(only learning english when he started school) pointed out to me.

Imagine moving to say Madrid to find Basque was the first official language of Spain, that all the official signs and government(and others texts) were half Basque, half Castilian. That all Spaniards were schooled in Basque from an early age and that Basque was a mandatory requirement for many universities and jobs. Only then finding out that you had to actively seek out Basque speakers and Castilian was the primary language of 90% of communication. You might start to doubt their "official language" notions and policies. Or think them a bit odd.

What gives with the Polish references?

I presume some are merely pointing out that of the languages spoken and heard in modern Ireland, Irish has some stiff competition regarding fluency and usage and practicality. Personally speaking I don't see it as much of an argument myself.

Dyr · 13-03-2013 04:24PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

why does ireland have such a colonial inferiority complex that we cannot embrace our culture

because inferiority complex is inferior?

jjbrien · 13-03-2013 04:31PM

I never knew one existed and id scrap it to be honest. Dont know how many times a tourist has asked me that bus is going to An Lar do you know if it goes near the city centre?

I know Irish language is part of our heritage etc but most people speak english and dont know much Irish so having signs etc in both languages is a bit of a waste i understand in the gaelteact but in the likes of Mullingar or Dublin seems a waste

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-03-2013 04:34PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

does ireland have such a colonial inferiority complex that we cannot embrace our culture

FYP

topper75 · 13-03-2013 04:35PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Maybe everyone in Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand should decamp to the UK too.

All those countries spend govt funds on native language preservation (albeit some to pitiful degrees).

If you want an all-English speaking country, go to England. Great place - you'll have the NHS and everything. "Here's one we made earlier" as they say in the cookery shows on TV.

Iwasfrozen · 13-03-2013 04:40PM

topper75 wrote: »

All those countries spend govt funds on native language preservation (albeit some to pitiful degrees).

If you want an all-English speaking country, go to England. Great place - you'll have the NHS and everything. "Here's one we made earlier" as they say in the cookery shows on TV.

Or instead of fúcking off to another country we could stay here and change things for the better.

Chips Lovell · 13-03-2013 04:44PM

topper75 wrote: »

If you want an all-English speaking country, go to England. Great place - you'll have the NHS and everything. "Here's one we made earlier" as they say in the cookery shows on TV.

Nobody is actually arguing for "an all-English speaking country", so there's a bit of a strawman going on there. What's being questioned is the lengths being gone to to push Irish, from mandatory education, to signage, to translation of state publications for which there is no demand and, the topic of this thread, the notion that guards should be able to speak it, when there is little or no need for it.

But if this is what you have a problem with, why should anyone move to the UK. We're Irish, and we want to live here in Ireland.

topper75 · 13-03-2013 04:53PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

While not of the anti-Gaelige brigade (only slightly less mythical than the PC-brigade) I did decamp to Berlin. Assuming that solidarity with the language is your point, should I have learnt German as a native first?

If you need it, study it. If you don't, don't. Simple. Goes for evey subject.

I think learning German whilst living in Germany makes perfect sense, unless I've misunderstood your point. In relation to the 2nd para, not at all simple. When organising an educ system you need to establish a core curriculum. Running off in our own learning directions willy nilly does not a nation make. Must be a common core. Hebrew would be part of the Israeli core etc.

Wibbs wrote: »

If you mean non Irish speakers, then Ireland would be significantly depopulated if they were to follow your suggestion.

Funny that all of them acquired English and many other subjects at school at the same time. Easy jibe to make, but ultimately full of holes as an argument.

"it's de law and de law is de law" Circular argument is circular. Indeed it makes a joke of that part of the constitution when the vast majority of people in this nation don't understand the language beyond a cupla focal. Even among those who claim to speak it, a goodly proportion have nothing near fluency, as a native speaking childhood mate originally from Donegal(only learning english when he started school) pointed out to me.

Imagine moving to say Madrid to find Basque was the first official language of Spain, that all the official signs and government(and others texts) were half Basque, half Castilian. That all Spaniards were schooled in Basque from an early age and that Basque was a mandatory requirement for many universities and jobs. Only then finding out that you had to actively seek out Basque speakers and Castilian was the primary language of 90% of communication. You might start to doubt their "official language" notions and policies. Or think them a bit odd. I presume some are merely pointing out that of the languages spoken and heard in modern Ireland, Irish has some stiff competition regarding fluency and usage and practicality. Personally speaking I don't see it as much of an argument myself.

Don't mean non-native speakers (one myself), I mean people with active and openly expressed antipathy to the language and state efforts at supporting it - most of the people who have posted on this thread fit that bill.

I thought pointing out the law in a debate made for a solid point. Maybe circular debate is circular.

The vast majority of people in this nation understand a lot more than cúpla focail. For God's sake, I know rank foreigners who come here and gather the cúpla focail. Funny how the haters are the ones who claim not to be able to speak it. Strange correlation.

Wibbs, the Basque analogy has so many twists in it that you know something has to be not quite right with it. For starters, Gaeltacht areas never claimed any kind of country of their own within Ireland. "Odd" is a good word - could be used describe how this country was misgoverned and repressed for centuries so I'm happy to have Gaeilge with first language status, odd as I may be.

topper75 · 13-03-2013 05:05PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Nobody is actually arguing for "an all-English speaking country", so there's a bit of a strawman going on there. What's being questioned is the lengths being gone to to push Irish, from mandatory education, to signage, to translation of state publications for which there is no demand and, the topic of this thread, the notion that guards should be able to speak it, when there is little or no need for it.

But if this is what you have a problem with, why should anyone move to the UK. We're Irish, and we want to live here in Ireland.

I didn't mean to create a strawman against what you individually posted but some people in this thread have questioned the very validity of Irish. The 'lengths' the govt goes to is probably a separate debate. I'd like to see more money diverted from translation of official texts to colloquial usage.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Or instead of fúcking off to another country we could stay here and change things for the better.

Not sure how it is better! Well lobby your TD for getting a referendum going so. There isn't much appetite to ditch the native language when the jackboots of globalisation are on the march. Irish is now actually growing for a change and is much less endangered than it was. It is still very dear notionally to the majority of the people regardless of where they stand on the fluency spectrum.

Grayson · 13-03-2013 05:11PM

topper75 wrote: »

Could never figure out how the anti-Gaeilge brigade don't just decamp to the UK.

Too much effort? Of course, maybe that is why they failed to acquire Gaeilge in the first place. Can't fault the consistency.

They mightn't have been listening too carefully in Civics class either. Irish is the first official language according to our constitution. What gives with the Polish references?

Or, considering 90%+ of this country speaks english as a first language, every irish speaker could feck off to the gaelteacht. That's a more practical application of your logic.

who the fug · 13-03-2013 05:14PM

topper75 wrote: »

The vast majority of people in this nation understand a lot more than cúpla focail. For God's sake, I know rank foreigners who come here and gather the cúpla focail. Funny how the haters are the ones who claim not to be able to speak it. Strange correlation.

.

No we don't besides asking for permission to use the toilet, and sing the mass in Irish I had forgotten all my Irish within 6 months of leaving school.

Any other Irish words I use are slang

In 1985 the way it was taught was ****e, and judging by this and other threads it is still ****e

Southern Wagon. · 13-03-2013 05:15PM

Just as most of you are fed up with the language, us Protestants in East Belfast are learning it now and trying to reclaim it.

Soon we will have the Irish language on orange banners.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/irish-language-class-takes-off-in-protestant-community-in-east-belfast-29116813.html

We will now take over and use it. Thanks.

Micky Dolenz · 13-03-2013 05:17PM

Southern Wagon. wrote: »

Just as most of you are fed up with the language, us Protestants in East Belfast are learning it now and trying to reclaim it.

Soon we will have the Irish language on orange banners.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/irish-language-class-takes-off-in-protestant-community-in-east-belfast-29116813.html

We will now take over and use it. Thanks.

Fail.

topper75 · 13-03-2013 05:20PM

Grayson wrote: »

Or, considering 90%+ of this country speaks english as a first language, every irish speaker could feck off to the gaelteacht. That's a more practical application of your logic.

I'm not the one clamouring for change. I'm happy with the way things are! If you want English only, fine. Send us a nice postcard of Buckingham palace using lines of Chaucer or Shakespeare for all I care.

who the fug wrote: »

No we don't besides asking for permission to use the toilet, and sing the mass in Irish I had forgotten all my Irish within 6 months of leaving school.

Not used - maybe. Forgotten - no.

who the fug wrote: »

In 1985 the way it was taught was ****e, and judging by this and other threads it is still ****e

No argument here. It is taught as a heritage glass case item, not as a living language.

who the fug · 13-03-2013 05:23PM

topper75 wrote: »

Not used - maybe. Forgotten - no.

.

Forgotten, all six prose/poetry /BS essays and peig burnt , any gob****e speaking to me in Irish would have been told to **** off down the road.

Grayson · 13-03-2013 05:23PM

topper75 wrote: »

I'm not the one clamouring for change. I'm happy with the way things are! If you want English only, fine. Send us a nice postcard of Buckingham palace using lines of Chaucer or Shakespeare for all I care.

hey, I'm just pointing out your faulty logic. I'd never suggest that everyone who didn't speak a particular language should move. that was you.

And unless I'm mistaken, irish is nearing the status of a dead language. The whole point of teaching it in schools, putting it on signs etc is to try to reverse that. It's a whole government policy dedicated to change.

Wibbs · 13-03-2013 05:23PM

topper75 wrote: »

Don't mean non-native speakers (one myself), I mean people with active and openly expressed antipathy to the language and state efforts at supporting it - most of the people who have posted on this thread fit that bill.

Some certainly, not all, not by a long shot. I don't hate Irish nor wish to see it die out(and it won't), however I won't drink the Koolaid and believe it's anything close to the "native language" of Ireland.

I thought pointing out the law in a debate made for a solid point. Maybe circular debate is circular.

There can be and are daft laws. Our constitution is full of them and had even more at it's first drafting. There's an awful lot of Holy God in it too. Do most people today buy into that too? I mean it is in the constitution after all. Or do we get to pick and choose?

The vast majority of people in this nation understand a lot more than cúpla focail.

No they really don't. Look at the Irish forum on this site, the largest of it's kind in Ireland. I've seen private forums with more posts and posters after going a year. Put it another way how fast would Boards.ie die a death if it was a banable offence to post in anything but Irish? Days at most. Or the solitary english language forum would make AH's posting figures look low. I'll try and dig up that programme that was on TG4 a while back where an Irish speaking chap tried to make his way around this land speaking only Irish. Met with blank stares and apologies in the majority of encounters. And he was looking for hope regarding the language. Hey try it yourself. Buy your papers, do your shopping, go to the bank etc as Gaelige and see how far you get outside the Gaeltacht(and in a few case in).

For God's sake, I know rank foreigners who come here and gather the cúpla focail. Funny how the haters are the ones who claim not to be able to speak it. Strange correlation.

How much can you speak? small child level, teenager, fully fluent? If not fully fluent what went wrong in your case when I presume you went through the Irish education system?

Wibbs, the Basque analogy has so many twists in it that you know something has to be not quite right with it. For starters, Gaeltacht areas never claimed any kind of country of their own within Ireland.

When the blinders are removed the analogy still more than holds in practical terms. Indeed I've heard non Irish people note it more than once. One german chappess described it as cultural window dressing and I'd agree with her.

"Odd" is a good word - could be used describe how this country was misgoverned and repressed for centuries so I'm happy to have Gaeilge with first language status, odd as I may be.

Oh no not the "800 years of etc". Jesus they're gone. They've been gone for nearly a century. Build a bridge for god's sake, or is that (droichead a thogal

). And when they were here there were more Irish speakers. There were more Irish speakers in 1922 than there are now. Around 20% more. The retreat of the Irish language accelerated under our stewardship. In every other ex colonial nation you can name their languages rebounded, but not here, even with the billions expended and laws enacted. Ask yourself why. BTW We're still misgoverned, we just replaced inbred chinless wonders with inbred gombeen men and it's beyond a joke at this stage.

Wibbs · 13-03-2013 05:29PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Fail.

True though to be fair quite the number of unionist Protestants were active in the language in the late 19th century. IIRC one of the first dictionaries was drafted by one. Plus quite the number of the original Planters would have knowledge of it through Scots Gaelic. If some of them want to get into it I say fair play. Just like I say fair play for anyone who wants to learn it. I just can't get into the universal insistence that it's "ours" for all Irish people.

who the fug · 13-03-2013 05:31PM

Wibbs wrote: »

True though to be fair quite the number of unionist Protestants were active in the language in the late 19th century. IIRC one of the first dictionaries was drafted by one. Plus quite the number of the original Planters would have knowledge of it through Scots Gaelic. If some of them want to get into it I say fair play. Just like I say fair play for anyone who wants to learn it. I just can't get into the universal insistence that it's "ours" for all Irish people.

In my history books back in time, one of the pictures of a Gaelic League march had an Orange order Banner

clairefontaine · 13-03-2013 05:32PM

The proof is in the pudding. Where are all the Irish emigrating to? Not the EU, but other anglophone nations.

If they really wanted this country to be Irish speaking, than all the schools would be Irish speaking, and there would be no translations into English, it would just be all done in Irish.

But English is more useful because it ties Ireland into a wider map and a wider community, that of the the anglo continents of commerce and culture.

Southern Wagon. · 13-03-2013 05:33PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Fail.

Why?

The language is being reclaimed by us. An event was just recently held in East Belfast on the language.

Once we get up to a respectable number of people who can speak it, we will protect it properly. Keeping traditions going is something we are good at. We have the facilities to get plenty of young people in to learn it.

Micky Dolenz · 13-03-2013 05:41PM

Southern Wagon. wrote: »

Why?

The language is being reclaimed by us. An event was just recently held in East Belfast on the language.

Once we get up to a respectable number of people who can speak it, we will protect it properly. Keeping traditions going is something we are good at. We have the facilities to get plenty of young people in to learn it.

Don't get me wrong, the sentiment is sound.The more Irish people who speak it the better. It is how it's delivered in your first post. Why not use your other account?

Southern Wagon. · 13-03-2013 05:45PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, the sentiment is sound.The more Irish people who speak it the better. It is how it's delivered in your first post. Why not use your other account?

Ha.;)

Anyway, see ya later.

Dostoevsky · 13-03-2013 06:00PM

who the fug wrote: »

all six prose/poetry /BS essays and peig burnt , any gob****e speaking to me in Irish would have been told to **** off down the road.

:rolleyes:. Haters gonna hate.

topper75 · 13-03-2013 06:27PM

Grayson wrote: »

hey, I'm just pointing out your faulty logic. I'd never suggest that everyone who didn't speak a particular language should move. that was you.

And unless I'm mistaken, irish is nearing the status of a dead language. The whole point of teaching it in schools, putting it on signs etc is to try to reverse that. It's a whole government policy dedicated to change.

No I don't want English-speaking monoglots on this island to move anywhere. I'd lose my own family! I just think those people who only want English (a small bitter subset for whom the statues of Kilkenny have never been repealed) have a ready-made solution waiting for them next door and am perplexed on why they don't avail of it instead. Irish was never at any point dead.

Wibbs wrote: »

Some certainly, not all, not by a long shot. I don't hate Irish nor wish to see it die out(and it won't), however I won't drink the Koolaid and believe it's anything close to the "native language" of Ireland.

There can be and are daft laws. Our constitution is full of them and had even more at it's first drafting. There's an awful lot of Holy God in it too. Do most people today buy into that too? I mean it is in the constitution after all. Or do we get to pick and choose?

No they really don't. Look at the Irish forum on this site, the largest of it's kind in Ireland. I've seen private forums with more posts and posters after going a year. Put it another way how fast would Boards.ie die a death if it was a banable offence to post in anything but Irish? Days at most. Or the solitary english language forum would make AH's posting figures look low. I'll try and dig up that programme that was on TG4 a while back where an Irish speaking chap tried to make his way around this land speaking only Irish. Met with blank stares and apologies in the majority of encounters. And he was looking for hope regarding the language. Hey try it yourself. Buy your papers, do your shopping, go to the bank etc as Gaelige and see how far you get outside the Gaeltacht(and in a few case in). How much can you speak? small child level, teenager, fully fluent? If not fully fluent what went wrong in your case when I presume you went through the Irish education system?

When the blinders are removed the analogy still more than holds in practical terms. Indeed I've heard non Irish people note it more than once. One german chappess described it as cultural window dressing and I'd agree with her. Oh no not the "800 years of etc". Jesus they're gone. They've been gone for nearly a century. Build a bridge for god's sake, or is that (droichead a thogal ). And when they were here there were more Irish speakers. There were more Irish speakers in 1922 than there are now. Around 20% more. The retreat of the Irish language accelerated under our stewardship. In every other ex colonial nation you can name their languages rebounded, but not here, even with the billions expended and laws enacted. Ask yourself why. BTW We're still misgoverned, we just replaced inbred chinless wonders with inbred gombeen men and it's beyond a joke at this stage.

clairefontaine wrote: »

The proof is in the pudding. Where are all the Irish emigrating to? Not the EU, but other anglophone nations.

If they really wanted this country to be Irish speaking, than all the schools would be Irish speaking, and there would be no translations into English, it would just be all done in Irish.

But English is more useful because it ties Ireland into a wider map and a wider community, that of the the anglo continents of commerce and culture.

I remember that TV show. But his entreaties to people were delivered full-blast with a heavy blas. I wasn't surprised at many of his 'findings'. Easy expose what people do not know rather than affirm what they do.

I have tried some transactions with mixed success.

The 800 years is not diminished for being referred to so often. 'They' are gone but the after effects of the policies are real and many. The Dublin parliament in place since the 20s was never clear on what it wanted to do with the language. It wanted a heritage item rather than a working vernacular. The whole thing fell between two stools. The biggest thing hurting Irish is the refusal to engage with the concept of bilingualism - both at government level and the level of the individual. In this thread, people have weighed it up against English on an either/or basis. I'm a proud native English speaker. Internationally that gives us quite an advantage. I have also acquired fluency in Irish. I would prefer Irish to be the kitchen language (as they say in Belgium) of this land, but that need never be to the detriment of our English fluency.

who the fug wrote: »

Forgotten, all six prose/poetry /BS essays and peig burnt , any gob****e speaking to me in Irish would have been told to **** off down the road.

It is BS. I resented those impositions, but the language is still beautiful. I was able to separate the two. I was driven to distraction with King Lear, the Plough and the Stars and the miserable ramblings of 'poets' like Yeats and Wordsworth. Despite my experiences, I'm still typing to you here in English. Haven't given up

Iwasfrozen · 13-03-2013 06:34PM

topper75 wrote: »

Not sure how it is better! Well lobby your TD for getting a referendum going so. There isn't much appetite to ditch the native language when the jackboots of globalisation are on the march. Irish is now actually growing for a change and is much less endangered than it was. It is still very dear notionally to the majority of the people regardless of where they stand on the fluency spectrum.

How is it for the better? Because it saves money. Don't get me wrong I'm happy to let people speak whatever language they want to, as long as we remove government financial subsidies. You talk about globalisation like it's a bad thing but look around you, see how much better off we all are. Globalisation removes the artificial barriers that divides humanity and you're too caught up in your own little corner of the world to see that.

Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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