Salmon Farm Controversy

the purple tin · 09-03-2013 07:08PM

I worked on a fish farm in the netherlands as a youth.
It was my job to maintain the haddock paddock.

ScumLord · 10-03-2013 01:49AM

IRcolm wrote: »

Apologies for ignorance, but how do fish farms negatively affect the environment? How would they deplete wold fish stocks as mentioned above? Genuine question.

I was always under the impression fish farms were a good, viable and sustainable alternative to fishing.

The problem with intensively farming fish is the same as the problems of intensively farming chickens, disease. Because the animals are forced into tight quarters disease spreads like wildfire. To combat that they pump them full of antibiotics which only makes the diseases stronger. Because the fish are essentially still in the wild those super bugs can get into the wild population which have no defence against the new bugs.

I'd imagine they produce quite a bit of waste too, while the nutrient rich waste might be great for some species it would probably choke out many others.

Doing it on land would counter most of those issues it would just be much more expensive to do and it's not easy to recreate the specific environment these creatures need.

Hopsin · 10-03-2013 11:32AM

To be honest, if what I heard is true. And this fish farm does bring 100 jobs to the town. Well, Id rather we have the jobs and let the salmon die in that town area. You know I find it preposterous that 1 fish farm in Galway will wipe out the salmon in Dublin. So bring the farm, and in a few years down the line if we want the fish back in that town we just close the farm. But in the mean time, people want jobs, and as said on this thread, people want cheap salmon and seemingly only the minority want the wild/expensive salmon. Bit of a no-brainer really.

Corkbah · 10-03-2013 11:45AM

Hopsin wrote: »

To be honest, if what I heard is true. And this fish farm does bring 100 jobs to the town. Well, Id rather we have the jobs and let the salmon die in that town area. You know I find it preposterous that 1 fish farm in Galway will wipe out the salmon in Dublin. So bring the farm, and in a few years down the line if we want the fish back in that town we just close the farm. But in the mean time, people want jobs, and as said on this thread, people want cheap salmon and seemingly only the minority want the wild/expensive salmon. Bit of a no-brainer really.

I think you are missing the point .... have you watched the clips and read the information that is available or are you simply trying to troll ?

Hopsin · 10-03-2013 11:49AM

Corkbah wrote: »

I think you are missing the point .... have you watched the clips and read the information that is available or are you simply trying to troll ?

I watched the video on the first page. Is there a different one I should watch?

Corkbah · 10-03-2013 11:55AM

theres a wealth of videos online which explain the issues and show other countries who have had similar issues.

google and youtube are your friends !!

loads of websites to read about it ...the only caution I would add is that majority of the time the information is not quite correct (not lies but more of a worst case scenario)

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/impact-of-fish-farm-plans-1.1255682 (just a letter to read - its basically a rebuttal of claims made....problem is ... people dont make complaints and protest unless there is a genuine concern....and those who oppose the protests usually have a vested interest - take note who actually sent the letter to the Times...similarly with those who protest - there is usually a vested interest - sometimes its trying to protect their own jobs/income )

Hopsin · 10-03-2013 12:11PM

Corkbah wrote: »

theres a wealth of videos online which explain the issues and show other countries who have had similar issues.

google and youtube are your friends !!

loads of websites to read about it ...the only caution I would add is that majority of the time the information is not quite correct (not lies but more of a worst case scenario)

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/impact-of-fish-farm-plans-1.1255682 (just a letter to read - its basically a rebuttal of claims made....problem is ... people dont make complaints and protest unless there is a genuine concern....and those who oppose the protests usually have a vested interest - take note who actually sent the letter to the Times...similarly with those who protest - there is usually a vested interest - sometimes its trying to protect their own jobs/income )

Well thats the thing. I dont know who to trust. I could watch and read articles for the rest of the night and still not be none the wiser because it seems theres so much bad info out there.

But. My understanding is this. Sea lice multiply into the thousands (perhaps even millions) around these farms and in turn kill of other natural sea life. Ok fair enough. Thats simple enough to grasp/believe. But I dont see how these sea lice from just 1 farm are going to flood around the whole coast of Ireland and up every river in the country and decimate the whole Irish salmon population.

So if we lose salmon/sealife in one town but in turn we get 100 jobs.... well personally Id pick the jobs. And no. Im not trolling when I say that.

10-03-2013 12:11PM

Gimme a decent wild salmon at a higher price any day (when I can afford it) rather than that crappy farmed salmon pumped full of god knows what.

100 jobs at one fish farm would not justify the loss of tourist revenue the salmon rivers brings in throughout the year.

telecaster · 10-03-2013 12:19PM

It takes between 4-5kg of wild caught fish - generally smaller species which aren't particularly valued by the fish market for human consumption - which is then ground to fishmeal to produce 1kg of farmed salmon.

http://www.global-briefing.org/2011/07/the-chips-are-down-for-fish/

This is not sustainable.

Ideally people would be eating the smaller, plentiful fish such as anchovies and pilchard and then sustainably wild caught salmon could be enjoyed as the superior product it is to farmed salmon.

Farmed salmon is a massive drain on the oceans. Farmed prawns likewise

The documentary 'End Of The Line' is a solid primer on the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjxr8lll_E

Hopsin · 10-03-2013 12:43PM

telecaster wrote: »

It takes between 4-5kg of wild caught fish - generally smaller species which aren't particularly valued by the fish market for human consumption - which is then ground to fishmeal to produce 1kg of farmed salmon.

Ok my question to you.

This smaller, undesirable fish.

1) Do they go actively searching and fishing for these undesirables.

2) Or Is this fish that are being needlessly caught anyway (from drift netting I believe) that would be getting killed/dumped whether the farm was there or not.

telecaster · 10-03-2013 12:54PM

Hopsin wrote: »

Ok my question to you.

This smaller, undesirable fish.

1) Do they go actively searching and fishing for these undesirables.

2) Or Is this fish that are being needlessly caught anyway (from drift netting I believe) that would be getting killed/dumped whether the farm was there or not.

It varies:

There's some decent information here:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6899E/X6899E03.htm

Fish used for reduction to meal and oil may be divided into three categories:

a) fish caught for the sole purpose of fishmeal production (for example by Chile, Peru, Norway, Denmark, South Africa and the USA);

b) by-catches from another fishery (by most fish-producing countries);

c) fish offcuts and offal from the consumption industry. (The UK and Germany use these materials to produce white fish meal; South Africa makes rock lobster meal from the carapaces and other parts which are not utilized).

losthorizon · 10-03-2013 01:09PM

This guy sees nothing wrong with farmed fish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l2ljY2qDgQ

thebishop · 10-03-2013 01:38PM

Galway is not the only area with Salmon farm problems.
http://www.savebantrybay.com/

squod · 10-03-2013 01:52PM

There's no chance of 100 jobs
It's a bad idea
The lad seeking planning permission can't afford to do it right and thats his fault, not mine/ours
There's no chance of 100 jobs
It's not like the market is crying out for more fish farms

Hopsin · 10-03-2013 02:11PM

telecaster wrote: »

It varies:

There's some decent information here:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6899E/X6899E03.htm

Ok but that doesnt really answer the question. That just says where it can possibly come from.

Do you have any figures. For example.

90% of the meal is made from fish that were intentionally caught for fish meal while 10% are byproducts from fish caught for the human market that would otherwise be dumped.

The way I see it, if the meal is mainly made of fish thats being dumped anyway, well then all the more reason to build this farm.

Hopsin · 10-03-2013 02:31PM

squod wrote: »

There's no chance of 100 jobs

How do you know this? Or do you just feel it in your bones?

squod wrote: »

It's a bad idea

And why is that now exactly?

squod wrote: »

The lad seeking planning permission can't afford to do it right and thats his fault, not mine/ours

How do you know this? But either way, I was hoping to keep this debate about the implications this farm would have on our wild salmon. And not whether or not this guy likes to exchange brown envelopes with TD's (if thats what your implying). Perhaps you should start a different thread for that.

squod wrote: »

It's not like the market is crying out for more fish farms

I cant see the problem here actually. Im not sure if you're right or wrong, but supposing you're right and that is the case, then Im sure you will be delighted when it closes down in 6 months or so due to no customers.

squod · 10-03-2013 03:05PM

Hopsin wrote: »

And why is that now exactly?

Older facilities producing 3,500 tonnes PA have 20 staff. A modern plant with 4-5 times that yield doesn't mean you'll need 4-5 times more staff.

Hopsin wrote: »

How do you know this?

I'm a bleedin' genius. Also there's several references online and/or in this thread which tell you so.

Hopsin wrote: »

I cant see the problem here actually. Im not sure if you're right or wrong, but supposing you're right and that is the case, then Im sure you will be delighted when it closes down in 6 months or so due to no customers.

Risk for the tax payer is greater than reward for the tax payer.

Hopsin · 10-03-2013 03:11PM

squod wrote: »

Older facilities producing 3,500 tonnes PA have 20 staff. A modern plant with 4-5 times that yield doesn't mean you'll need 4-5 times more staff.

Are these actually salmon farms? And not maybe prawn farms? And what country are they in? It might not be fair to compare an Irish farm (which will have to meet different rules/regulations etc) then say 1 in say Poland for example.

squod · 10-03-2013 03:29PM

Hopsin wrote: »

Are these actually salmon farms? And not maybe prawn farms? And what country are they in? It might not be fair to compare an Irish farm (which will have to meet different rules/regulations etc) then say 1 in say Poland for example.

Bantry Bay. Also, take a look at that facility. Imagine one five times its size in Galway bay. Ask yourself again what the benefit is to you as a taxpayer.

Hopsin · 10-03-2013 03:51PM

squod wrote: »

Bantry Bay. Also, take a look at that facility. Imagine one five times its size in Galway bay. Ask yourself again what the benefit is to you as a taxpayer.

Emmm.... the one in Bantry bay isnt built yet? Or at least according to an article dated from the 17th of last december.

thebishop · 10-03-2013 04:09PM

Marine harvest tells us the one they intend to build in Bantry Bay will provide 2 full time jobs If the one in Galway Bay is five times that size (5x2) that would mean 10 jobs .Maybe we have better workers down here.:D

_Puma_ · 08-05-2013 10:58AM

Anyone see the Prime Time piece on the salmon farm in Galway last night? Some very good points made by the people against the salmon farm, including the Aran Islanders. One thing that stuck out for me was the IFA representative in the audience, he looked very familiar.

Low and behold I found him on on another Prime Time investigation into illegal practices on salmon farms in Ireland I had watched a couple of weeks ago from 2003here. Go to about the 30 min mark. Seems the guys that were implicated in this investigation are now high up in the likes of BIM, the marine institute and the IFA aquaculture section, the very people who are touting this new venture.

What people must remember that many of the salmon farms set up in the 80's & 90's in the likes of Connemara were not financially viable without state funding, resulting in many being closed down once the grants run out. BIM's record speaks for itself.

The jobs argument also falls down under close scrutiny. BIM as License holders will not actually run the farm, a foreign multinational like Marine Harvest will so there is no requirement for the operators to create 500 jobs. BIM are trying to play the 500 jobs card by looking at small scale farms like the one off Clare island and scaling up. Unfortunately due to sheer size of the farm off Galway the farm will actually be run in a more automated process and will actually create in the region of 100-200 jobs.

Zzippy · 08-05-2013 12:13PM

The farm itself will actually theoretically create 65 jobs. That's BIM's own figures. The 500 figure is from spin-offs, and is based on all the salmon being processed in local plants. Problem is that the operator will be under no obligation to sell fish to local processors, and there is no guarantee of local jobs.
If you go into Dunnes or Tesco at the moment, you can buy Irish-farmed salmon, but it has been processed in the UK and re-imported into Ireland. Marine Harvest export most of their salmon to UK and France, where they have contracts with processors, and don't give a fcuk about Irish processors. BIM are naive if they think this project will create even a fraction of 500 jobs.

And don't get me started on the environmental impacts. Inland Fisheries Ireland have some good information here on that: http://www.fisheriesireland.ie/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=330&Itemid

Salmon Farm Controversy

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