Salmon Farm Controversy

Hopsin

I guess I must have been living under a rock or something, because I just happened to stumble upon a video of the protests a few days ago in Galway and was stunned that I hadn't heard about these fish farm proposals before.

So whats the craic with this? Is it really that bad? The anti's would nearly have you believe that it will kill all the wild salmon in the country. :eek:

Chucken

Linky: http://www.bim.ie/our-work/projects/deep-sea-organic-salmon-farming/proposed-galway-bay-organic-salmon-farm/

Mr Benevolent

There's always some sort of feckin controversy, they seem to be getting more and more pathetic though. It used to be 'Chernobyl Controversy', now it's horse meat controversy.

Oh I'm so devastated by your salmon controversy btw.

Hopsin

Chucken wrote: »

Linky: http://www.bim.ie/our-work/projects/deep-sea-organic-salmon-farming/proposed-galway-bay-organic-salmon-farm/

I watched this. Im not really sure if its trustworthy. I think it could be similar to shell-gas thing with just a few hippies getting mad over nothing.

1ZRed

Do you like fishsticks?

Sky King

Sorry mistah - we only have sole!

Hardonraging

1ZRed wrote: »

Do you like fishsticks?

Gotta get me some of those Kenny west glasses dawg!!

so yea Salmon farming's bad, I know I've heard why, just cant remember, it's not as simple as, mo money mo problem's tho .. there were some eco concerns..

What's up with all the Fracking also ??

steddyeddy

Hopsin wrote: »

I guess I must have been living under a rock or something, because I just happened to stumble upon a video of the protests a few days ago in Galway and was stunned that I hadn't heard about these fish farm proposals before.

So whats the craic with this? Is it really that bad? The anti's would nearly have you believe that it will kill all the wild salmon in the country. :eek:

It's not the fact that fish are being killed that annoys most scientists but the fact that these farmed salmon can escape and effect wild populations.

ScumLord

Hopsin wrote: »

I watched this. Im not really sure if its trustworthy. I think it could be similar to shell-gas thing with just a few hippies getting mad over nothing.

A lot of fishermen in that video from the looks of things.

Farmed fish is the way forward. We have to make it work to preserve the natural fish stocks.

1ZRed

Hardonraging wrote: »

Gotta get me some of those Kenny west glasses dawg!!

Braaaaaahhh :cool:

AnonoBoy

Fish can't work on farms. They've got no thumbs.

stevie_b

Hopsin wrote: »

I watched this. Im not really sure if its trustworthy. I think it could be similar to shell-gas thing with just a few hippies getting mad over nothing.

Hopsin wrote: »

I guess I must have been living under a rock or something, because I just happened to stumble upon a video of the protests a few days ago in Galway and was stunned that I hadn't heard about these fish farm proposals before.

So whats the craic with this? Is it really that bad? The anti's would nearly have you believe that it will kill all the wild salmon in the country. :eek:

I'm not an anti or a hippy (quite the oppposite), but as someone who has followed the salmon farm debate from the start i would be strongly against. Sea-trout on the west coast were almost wiped out by previous farms. These farms are a disaster for wild fish stocks and the immediate ecosystem. From a recreational angling perspective no wild fish will mean no visiting anglers and a huge fall in tourism revenue which will greatly outweigh any benefit from the small number of jobs farms may create. I won't speculate on what effects (immediate and downstream) it would have on other areas but it wouldn't be positive.

Greed and money once again is behind it all. Dr. Ed Fahy's book is an interesting and frightening read for anyone interested - http://www.amazon.com/Overkill-euphoric-industrialise-fisheries-unravelling/dp/0957521804

Hopefully the public who don't have much interest in this debate won't view those opposing these farms as tree-huggers as its not the case. Personally as someone who enjoys shooting, angling, and the outdoors in general i think it would be disgraceful if one of our prized fish - the Salmon - was allowed to be to be wiped out this way.

Having seen what these salmon are fed i wouldn't touch them anyway - absolute muck.

ScumLord

stevie_b wrote: »

I'm not an anti or a hippy (quite the oppposite), but as someone who has followed the salmon farm debate from the start i would be strongly against. Sea-trout on the west coast were almost wiped out by previous farms. These farms are a disaster for wild fish stocks and the immediate ecosystem. From a recreational angling perspective no wild fish will mean no visiting anglers and a huge fall in tourism revenue which will greatly outweigh any benefit from the small number of jobs farms may create. I won't speculate on what effects (immediate and downstream) it would have on other areas but it wouldn't be positive.

Fish farming is more important than tourist fishing. What's happing with fish farms is humanities fight for survival. We are dredging the oceans of every living thing in it. Guys who go out to catch salmon catch everything, keep the salmon and throw the rest of the dead fish back into the sea. Fish farms allow us to selectively breed and kill what we need and no more.

We will destroy life in the oceans if we can't make fish farms work, the knock on effect would be the decimation of human populations.

If there are problems with the current farms all we need to do is fix them.

sorsha

I was looking for a wild salmon in Dunnes today -both smoked and fresh and no luck!

stevie_b

ScumLord wrote: »

Fish farming is more important than tourist fishing. What's happing with fish farms is humanities fight for survival. We are dredging the oceans of every living thing in it. Guys who go out to catch salmon catch everything, keep the salmon and throw the rest of the dead fish back into the sea. Fish farms allow us to selectively breed and kill what we need and no more.

We will destroy life in the oceans if we can't make fish farms work, the knock on effect would be the decimation of human populations.

If there are problems with the current farms all we need to do is fix them.

Sorry but i can't agree with you except for your last part. Commercial salmon fishermen do not have discards like commercials fishing for cod etc. You have to distinguish between the different types of commercial fishing and not lump them all together.

I do agree that if there are problems with the current farms we need to fix them. This means that these proposed farms shouldn't go ahead. Land based farms would be the way to go.

ScumLord

stevie_b wrote: »

Sorry but i can't agree with you except for your last part. Commercial salmon fishermen do not have discards like commercials fishing for cod etc. You have to distinguish between the different types of commercial fishing and not lump them all together.

There is a distinction but they still can't guarantee they'll catch salmon over any other fish.

I do agree that if there are problems with the current farms we need to fix them. This means that these proposed farms shouldn't go ahead. Land based farms would be the way to go.

Land based farms are expensive to run, this will make the fish to expensive to compete. At the end of the day the only concern for the consumer is price. The consumer drives everything. Unless the consumer is willing to pay more (and they never are) land based fish farms won't work.

Hardonraging

ScumLord wrote: »

We are dredging the oceans of every living thing in it.

Such is the curse that is man ...

G Power

Confab wrote: »

There's always some sort of feckin controversy, they seem to be getting more and more pathetic though. It used to be 'Chernobyl Controversy', now it's horse meat controversy.

Oh I'm so devastated by your salmon controversy btw.

yes and all these "contraversies" add up to a monumental clusterfcuk of such magnitude that the majority of people do the opposite of what is required of them by ignoring the issues or belittling them because there's so many issues. does not compute!!

G Power

Hopsin wrote: »

I think it could be similar to shell-gas thing with just a few hippies getting mad over nothing.

are you for real??

Sergeant

Farmed salmon really isn't that pleasant to eat. It's all a bit tasteless.

G Power

ScumLord wrote: »

We are dredging the oceans of every living thing in it.

not just the oceans

Clarehobo

ScumLord wrote: »

Fish farming is more important than tourist fishing. What's happing with fish farms is humanities fight for survival. We are dredging the oceans of every living thing in it. Guys who go out to catch salmon catch everything, keep the salmon and throw the rest of the dead fish back into the sea. Fish farms allow us to selectively breed and kill what we need and no more.

We will destroy life in the oceans if we can't make fish farms work, the knock on effect would be the decimation of human populations.

If there are problems with the current farms all we need to do is fix them.

Those problems won't be fixed and that is the big issue.
They shouldn't be putting fish farms off the west coast, endangering the local eco systems. It's not about tourist fishing, the crux of the matter is the danger to the local eco system. If they want a fish farm, they should come up with a better solution, like a man-made reservoir where they can control it's impact on the local environment and water, where it won't pollute and endanger native fish stocks.

ScumLord

Clarehobo wrote: »

Those problems won't be fixed and that is the big issue.
They shouldn't be putting fish farms off the west coast, endangering the local eco systems. It's not about tourist fishing, the crux of the matter is the danger to the local eco system. If they want a fish farm, they should come up with a better solution, like a man-made reservoir where they can control it's impact on the local environment and water, where it won't pollute and endanger native fish stocks.

The problem would be they have to recreate the environment, putting the cages into the sea saves a lot of money.

I think your all probably right but your combating your own desire to pick up the cheapest option in the supermarket. It won't happen. People won't pay the extra money. It might be easier and cheaper to find a solution to the ocean cages than it would be to convince people to pay an extra €2 for their bit of salmon.

stevie_b

ScumLord wrote: »

Land based farms are expensive to run, this will make the fish to expensive to compete. At the end of the day the only concern for the consumer is price. The consumer drives everything. Unless the consumer is willing to pay more (and they never are) land based fish farms won't work.

Yeah, at the end of the day it comes down to money. It's terrible, but it doesn't mean the proposed farms are the right thing to do. Personally i'm happy to pay the extra for good quality food

Robbo

stevie_b wrote: »

Having seen what these salmon are fed i wouldn't touch them anyway - absolute muck.

Soylent Green?

martin6651

As a scuba diver in the West of Ireland for over 40 years I have seen what the fish farms have done to Killary Harbour Ireland's only natural fjord. Before they arrived into Killary the shell fish life was fantastic and an exciting place to dive, but the farm started and the shell fish life was destroyed. The crap and fish food that the salmon did not eat ended on the sea bed which introduced an infestation of brittle starfish which blanketed the area and nothing lives there anymore.
The same thing will happen In Galway Bay and as a daily all year round swimmer I don't want that to happen here. So I will do what I can to stop it happening.

kowloon

ScumLord wrote: »

We will destroy life in the oceans if we can't make fish farms work, the knock on effect would be the decimation of human populations.

If there are problems with the current farms all we need to do is fix them.

I'm pretty ignorant about fish farming (and the majority of things) but the above would be my line. We need to play the long game and come down heavy on the regulation side to make it work.

Chances are this won't happen and any planning beyond balancing the next budget will be very relaxed.

stevie_b

The Galway Bay Against Salmon Cages site lists some certain and some probable consequences of these farms - LINK

The sole aim for the movement is to stop the installation of the proposed huge Salmon Cages in Galway Bay. Should the Government, through the Minister for Agriculture Mr.Simon Coveney, allow the project to go ahead Galway Bay Prawns may be polluted to such an extent as to wipe out all fish life in the Bay or render them unsafe for human consumption.

We could see the end of the famous Galway & Clarinbridge Oyster Festivals; Galway Bay Prawns would disappear from the Menu of Hotels & Restaurants; Shrimp, Crab, Lobster and other shell fish may either be wiped out or rendered unsafe to eat. Boating, both for pleasure & fishing may be severely curtailed.Salmon and Seatrout from all the rivers flowing into Galway Bay - Clare River and Corrib system, Knock River at Furbo, Boluisce River at Spiddal, Owenriff River at Inverin, Crimlin River, Costello & Fermoyle River at Casla and Screebe River may probably be destroyed and their fish stocks destroyed resulting in an end to the much needed Tourism Angling. Galway would probably never again be able to host the Volvo Ocean Race.

With the resultant pollution from those Salmon Cages result in our beaches probably loosing their “Blue Flag Status” and make swimming in the Bay injurious to human health. The simple answer to most, if not all, of the above is yes.

I'd urge people to do what they can to oppose these farms now and not leave it to hindsight to realise that they were a big mistake.

Signing this petition only takes a few seconds - http://www.nosalmonfarmsatsea.com/how-you-can-help/petition/

Also, there is a good template for an objection letter to the government here - http://www.nosalmonfarmsatsea.com/how-you-can-help/submit-your-complaint/

starlings

stevie_b wrote: »

The Galway Bay Against Salmon Cages site lists some certain and some probable consequences of these farms - LINK




I'd urge people to do what they can to oppose these farms now and not leave it to hindsight to realise that they were a big mistake.

Signing this petition only takes a few seconds - http://www.nosalmonfarmsatsea.com/how-you-can-help/petition/

Also, there is a good template for an objection letter to the government here - http://www.nosalmonfarmsatsea.com/how-you-can-help/submit-your-complaint/

I really wish that the GBASC hadn't written that in such conditional language - probable, could, may etc. If they had cited problems in Killary Harbour for example, and projected the same based on the details of the proposed development, I'd be much more convinced.

bonerjams03

Apologies for ignorance, but how do fish farms negatively affect the environment? How would they deplete wold fish stocks as mentioned above? Genuine question.

I was always under the impression fish farms were a good, viable and sustainable alternative to fishing.

Nodin

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Fish can't work on farms. They've got no thumbs.

...or fingers, because of Captain "butcher" Birdseye.

the purple tin

I worked on a fish farm in the netherlands as a youth.
It was my job to maintain the haddock paddock.

ScumLord

IRcolm wrote: »

Apologies for ignorance, but how do fish farms negatively affect the environment? How would they deplete wold fish stocks as mentioned above? Genuine question.

I was always under the impression fish farms were a good, viable and sustainable alternative to fishing.

The problem with intensively farming fish is the same as the problems of intensively farming chickens, disease. Because the animals are forced into tight quarters disease spreads like wildfire. To combat that they pump them full of antibiotics which only makes the diseases stronger. Because the fish are essentially still in the wild those super bugs can get into the wild population which have no defence against the new bugs.

I'd imagine they produce quite a bit of waste too, while the nutrient rich waste might be great for some species it would probably choke out many others.

Doing it on land would counter most of those issues it would just be much more expensive to do and it's not easy to recreate the specific environment these creatures need.

Hopsin

To be honest, if what I heard is true. And this fish farm does bring 100 jobs to the town. Well, Id rather we have the jobs and let the salmon die in that town area. You know I find it preposterous that 1 fish farm in Galway will wipe out the salmon in Dublin. So bring the farm, and in a few years down the line if we want the fish back in that town we just close the farm. But in the mean time, people want jobs, and as said on this thread, people want cheap salmon and seemingly only the minority want the wild/expensive salmon. Bit of a no-brainer really.

Corkbah

Hopsin wrote: »

To be honest, if what I heard is true. And this fish farm does bring 100 jobs to the town. Well, Id rather we have the jobs and let the salmon die in that town area. You know I find it preposterous that 1 fish farm in Galway will wipe out the salmon in Dublin. So bring the farm, and in a few years down the line if we want the fish back in that town we just close the farm. But in the mean time, people want jobs, and as said on this thread, people want cheap salmon and seemingly only the minority want the wild/expensive salmon. Bit of a no-brainer really.

I think you are missing the point .... have you watched the clips and read the information that is available or are you simply trying to troll ?

Hopsin

Corkbah wrote: »

I think you are missing the point .... have you watched the clips and read the information that is available or are you simply trying to troll ?

I watched the video on the first page. Is there a different one I should watch?

Corkbah

theres a wealth of videos online which explain the issues and show other countries who have had similar issues.

google and youtube are your friends !!

loads of websites to read about it ...the only caution I would add is that majority of the time the information is not quite correct (not lies but more of a worst case scenario)

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/impact-of-fish-farm-plans-1.1255682 (just a letter to read - its basically a rebuttal of claims made....problem is ... people dont make complaints and protest unless there is a genuine concern....and those who oppose the protests usually have a vested interest - take note who actually sent the letter to the Times...similarly with those who protest - there is usually a vested interest - sometimes its trying to protect their own jobs/income )

Hopsin

Corkbah wrote: »

theres a wealth of videos online which explain the issues and show other countries who have had similar issues.

google and youtube are your friends !!

loads of websites to read about it ...the only caution I would add is that majority of the time the information is not quite correct (not lies but more of a worst case scenario)

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/impact-of-fish-farm-plans-1.1255682 (just a letter to read - its basically a rebuttal of claims made....problem is ... people dont make complaints and protest unless there is a genuine concern....and those who oppose the protests usually have a vested interest - take note who actually sent the letter to the Times...similarly with those who protest - there is usually a vested interest - sometimes its trying to protect their own jobs/income )

Well thats the thing. I dont know who to trust. I could watch and read articles for the rest of the night and still not be none the wiser because it seems theres so much bad info out there.

But. My understanding is this. Sea lice multiply into the thousands (perhaps even millions) around these farms and in turn kill of other natural sea life. Ok fair enough. Thats simple enough to grasp/believe. But I dont see how these sea lice from just 1 farm are going to flood around the whole coast of Ireland and up every river in the country and decimate the whole Irish salmon population.

So if we lose salmon/sealife in one town but in turn we get 100 jobs.... well personally Id pick the jobs. And no. Im not trolling when I say that.

Gimme a decent wild salmon at a higher price any day (when I can afford it) rather than that crappy farmed salmon pumped full of god knows what.

100 jobs at one fish farm would not justify the loss of tourist revenue the salmon rivers brings in throughout the year.

telecaster

It takes between 4-5kg of wild caught fish - generally smaller species which aren't particularly valued by the fish market for human consumption - which is then ground to fishmeal to produce 1kg of farmed salmon.

http://www.global-briefing.org/2011/07/the-chips-are-down-for-fish/

This is not sustainable.

Ideally people would be eating the smaller, plentiful fish such as anchovies and pilchard and then sustainably wild caught salmon could be enjoyed as the superior product it is to farmed salmon.

Farmed salmon is a massive drain on the oceans. Farmed prawns likewise

The documentary 'End Of The Line' is a solid primer on the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjxr8lll_E

Hopsin

telecaster wrote: »

It takes between 4-5kg of wild caught fish - generally smaller species which aren't particularly valued by the fish market for human consumption - which is then ground to fishmeal to produce 1kg of farmed salmon.

Ok my question to you.

This smaller, undesirable fish.

1) Do they go actively searching and fishing for these undesirables.

2) Or Is this fish that are being needlessly caught anyway (from drift netting I believe) that would be getting killed/dumped whether the farm was there or not.

telecaster

Hopsin wrote: »

Ok my question to you.

This smaller, undesirable fish.

1) Do they go actively searching and fishing for these undesirables.

2) Or Is this fish that are being needlessly caught anyway (from drift netting I believe) that would be getting killed/dumped whether the farm was there or not.

It varies:

There's some decent information here:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6899E/X6899E03.htm

Fish used for reduction to meal and oil may be divided into three categories:

a) fish caught for the sole purpose of fishmeal production (for example by Chile, Peru, Norway, Denmark, South Africa and the USA);

b) by-catches from another fishery (by most fish-producing countries);

c) fish offcuts and offal from the consumption industry. (The UK and Germany use these materials to produce white fish meal; South Africa makes rock lobster meal from the carapaces and other parts which are not utilized).

losthorizon

This guy sees nothing wrong with farmed fish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l2ljY2qDgQ

thebishop

Galway is not the only area with Salmon farm problems.
http://www.savebantrybay.com/

squod

• There's no chance of 100 jobs
• It's a bad idea
• The lad seeking planning permission can't afford to do it right and thats his fault, not mine/ours
• There's no chance of 100 jobs
• It's not like the market is crying out for more fish farms

Hopsin

telecaster wrote: »

It varies:

There's some decent information here:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6899E/X6899E03.htm

Ok but that doesnt really answer the question. That just says where it can possibly come from.

Do you have any figures. For example.

90% of the meal is made from fish that were intentionally caught for fish meal while 10% are byproducts from fish caught for the human market that would otherwise be dumped.

The way I see it, if the meal is mainly made of fish thats being dumped anyway, well then all the more reason to build this farm.

Hopsin

squod wrote: »

• There's no chance of 100 jobs

How do you know this? Or do you just feel it in your bones?

squod wrote: »

• It's a bad idea

And why is that now exactly?

squod wrote: »

• The lad seeking planning permission can't afford to do it right and thats his fault, not mine/ours

How do you know this? But either way, I was hoping to keep this debate about the implications this farm would have on our wild salmon. And not whether or not this guy likes to exchange brown envelopes with TD's (if thats what your implying). Perhaps you should start a different thread for that.

squod wrote: »

• It's not like the market is crying out for more fish farms

I cant see the problem here actually. Im not sure if you're right or wrong, but supposing you're right and that is the case, then Im sure you will be delighted when it closes down in 6 months or so due to no customers.

squod

Hopsin wrote: »

And why is that now exactly?

Older facilities producing 3,500 tonnes PA have 20 staff. A modern plant with 4-5 times that yield doesn't mean you'll need 4-5 times more staff.

Hopsin wrote: »

How do you know this?

I'm a bleedin' genius. Also there's several references online and/or in this thread which tell you so.

Hopsin wrote: »

I cant see the problem here actually. Im not sure if you're right or wrong, but supposing you're right and that is the case, then Im sure you will be delighted when it closes down in 6 months or so due to no customers.

Risk for the tax payer is greater than reward for the tax payer.

Hopsin

squod wrote: »

Older facilities producing 3,500 tonnes PA have 20 staff. A modern plant with 4-5 times that yield doesn't mean you'll need 4-5 times more staff.

Are these actually salmon farms? And not maybe prawn farms? And what country are they in? It might not be fair to compare an Irish farm (which will have to meet different rules/regulations etc) then say 1 in say Poland for example.

squod

Hopsin wrote: »

Are these actually salmon farms? And not maybe prawn farms? And what country are they in? It might not be fair to compare an Irish farm (which will have to meet different rules/regulations etc) then say 1 in say Poland for example.

Bantry Bay. Also, take a look at that facility. Imagine one five times its size in Galway bay. Ask yourself again what the benefit is to you as a taxpayer.

Hopsin

squod wrote: »

Bantry Bay. Also, take a look at that facility. Imagine one five times its size in Galway bay. Ask yourself again what the benefit is to you as a taxpayer.

Emmm.... the one in Bantry bay isnt built yet? Or at least according to an article dated from the 17th of last december.