Hugo Chavez has died

20Cent · 06-03-2013 12:16AM

Vetinarugbian wrote: »

I spent some time in that beautiful country in the past and found a place that was full of people afraid to criticise him, afraid of the police and afraid of each other. The country is rife with corruption not on a level like in ireland - our politicians are saints in comparison.
Venezuela has massive oil resources and yet most of the country live in poverty, the infrastructure is hopeless and the whole place is terrifyingly unsafe for tourists. The police are as scary as anybody else.
People like to hold Chavez up as some sort of revolutionary, supporting Cuba blah blah blah. simple thing is he was a crook and hopefully the country can become a stable place with somebody who will use its huge resources to help the people and not use it to stick there fingers up at America.

What did he steal?
Isn't that what he did?

Lawrence1895 · 06-03-2013 12:18AM

R.I.P. Comandante Chavez

Frankie Lee · 06-03-2013 12:22AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Barrio_Adentro

Worth a read.

MOH · 06-03-2013 12:23AM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

you can watch it here. made by RTE, shown on TG4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id--ZFtjR5c

RTE had nothing to do with making it.

robp · 06-03-2013 12:24AM

Stinicker wrote: »

R.I.P to a great man and a leader of the revolution. He actually done something for his people and was more of a politician than any of the corrupt money grabbing scum we call politicians here in the West.

Grass always greener on the other side. GDP per capita out there is 1/5 of Ireland. Very nice.

Chuck Stone · 06-03-2013 12:24AM

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/ways-chavez-destroyed-venezuelan-economy/story?id=18239956

Chavez 'destroyed' Venezuelan economy.

The predictions of economic collapse, balance of payments or debt crises and other gloomy prognostications, as well as many economic forecasts along the way, have repeatedly proven wrong

The Venezuelan economy has had two recessions in the past thirteen years. The first was brought on by an oil strike, and the second – which could probably have been avoided with sufficient counter-cyclical policies – was during the world recession of 2009. The predictions of economic collapse, balance of payments or debt crises and other gloomy prognostications, as well as many economic forecasts along the way, have repeatedly proven wrong

An unsustainable economic expansion is one in which there are imbalances that cannot be maintained. Examples would include the U.S. economy in 2006, or a number of other economies (e.g. Spain, U.K., Ireland) that had large real estate bubbles that would inevitably have to burst.

http://www.cepr.net/

Blackbush1905 · 06-03-2013 12:25AM

Lars1916 wrote: »

R.I.P. Comandante Chavez

Aye good one! were are you kerry, galway, left a country highest murder rate in world, some achievment!! lets hope they don't do a north korea and vote in the protege, if they do then its their own mess, either way i don't give a ****.

southsiderosie · 06-03-2013 12:28AM

Frankie Lee wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Barrio_Adentro

Worth a read.

Why? Over the last decade Mexico implemented the Opportunidades program, providing cash transfers and social services to poor families. Lula redirected state resources to poor communities as well. Colombian mayors put libraries, clinics, part, and transport services in poor barrios, most notably in Medellin and Bogota. Latin America has undergone enormous changes over the last decade - and most countries were able to do this without importing Cuban doctors who are prisoners in their own country, or dismantling democratic safeguards.

Son Of A Vidic · 06-03-2013 12:29AM

brimal wrote: »

Very defensive attitude there.

Since I didn't even express an opinion on Chavez in my OP. How can you possibly interpret it as being defensive?

Conmaicne Mara · 06-03-2013 12:31AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Chavez 'destroyed' Venezuelan economy.

The predictions of economic collapse, balance of payments or debt crises and other gloomy prognostications, as well as many economic forecasts along the way, have repeatedly proven wrong

Yes he did, I'm glad you're finally agreeing with me. 23% inflation for the past ten years, the destruction of private businesses, it's all on the ABC link.

Would you like to comment on the free and safe society he has made, where violent crime is rife, the people are afraid of their police, the judiciary are in Chavez' pocket (should that now be shroud?), or his jailings of domestic critics?

Have you listened to the PK interview with that biographer, or is all you do here blindly bleat for sources then ignore all evidence that is contrary to your own beliefs?

dr.bollocko · 06-03-2013 12:41AM

Chicken liver banned.

The poster. As opposed to some obscure Venezuelan tradition.

Chuck Stone · 06-03-2013 12:43AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Chavez apologists will just say "well other countries do it too!" or other such whataboutery.

Human Rights Watch has issued several damning reports on the Chavez regime - feel free to read through them at your leisure.

A quick read of the summary of A Decade Under Chávez Political Intolerance and Lost Opportunities for Advancing Human Rights in Venezuela from your own link turns this up:

His [Chavez] first major achievement, the enactment of a new constitution in 1999, offered an extraordinary opportunity for the country to shore up the rule of law and strengthen the protection of human rights. The 1999 Constitution significantly expanded human rights guarantees by, among other things, granting Venezuela’s international rights obligations precedence over domestic law. It also created a new Supreme Court and sought to provide this court with the institutional independence it would need to serve as the ultimate guarantor of these fundamental rights.

But this historic opportunity has since been largely squandered. The most dramatic setback came in April 2002 when a coup d’état temporarily removed Chávez from office and replaced him with an unelected president who, in his first official act, dissolved the country’s democratic institutions, suspending the legislature and disbanding the Supreme Court.

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/venezuela0908web.pdf

Context. Always context.

Blackbush1905 · 06-03-2013 12:46AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A quick read of the summary of A Decade Under Chávez Political Intolerance and Lost Opportunities for Advancing Human Rights in Venezuela from your own link turns this up:

Context. Always context.

Whats your opinion chuck, great leader?

Most likely whacked by the yanks!

Chuck Stone · 06-03-2013 12:50AM

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

Most likely whacked by the yanks!

Do you have anything substantive to add or are you just here to boo and hiss?

ArtSmart · 06-03-2013 12:52AM

Hmmmm. Chicken. Liver.
Urghhhhhagghhh.

Anyhow....

Yeah. Aint easy. Since way back the States kind of feel Latin America should be it's bread/ oil/ rubber etc basket.

The States (ie the MNC's) did all they could do, killing/bribing/ supporting monsters like Pinochet wise, and yet still L.A. seems to want autonomy.

weird.

guess them hot tempered Latinos don't know what's good for 'em.

hopefully the States can give them the joys of the American Dream before it's too late.

mccarthy37 · 06-03-2013 12:55AM

I wonder will Brian Dobson and Samantha Libreri get sent over to report on the funeral.

catallus · 06-03-2013 12:56AM

wendell borton wrote: »

While he was no way perfect, he did come to power with good intentions. His lasting legacy will be that he broke the hold that a small elite had on the nation that facilitated exploitation of the country.

I think this is a good point.

Chavez broke the hold of private capitalist enterprise over the natural resources of that country. It was seriously being bled dry by the markets and the international economy would have used it as a private mine of mineral wealth and labour to bolster it's corrupt financial markets. All this nonsense about repeated recessions is just a regurgitation of the mouthpieces of the international financial controllers.

But nothing is black and white: the points made about the rise in anti-global feelings in Venezuela has been made in this thread, but that's politics: sadly the rise of anti-semitic sentiment was part and parcel of Chavez's populist policies: an easy catch-cry against the United States of America/United Nations/United Kingdom.

We here in Ireland should look and see what is possible if we had leaders such as Chavez; we wouldn't be sold down the river by corrupted politicians who pay more attention to ratings agencies than to the needs and voices of their own people.

jank · 06-03-2013 12:57AM

R.I.P.

Hopefully this along with the imminent departure of Castro will spell an end to extreme socalist policies in South America. Follow the lead of Brazil and Chile.

southsiderosie · 06-03-2013 12:58AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A quick read of the summary of A Decade Under Chávez Political Intolerance and Lost Opportunities for Advancing Human Rights in Venezuela from your own link turns this up:

Context. Always context.

Yes, the context is that the attempted coup was over 10 years ago, and democratic institutions have deteriorated further under Chavez. Would you care to address that point...or the soaring violent crime rates...or the inflation rates?

jank · 06-03-2013 01:04AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes, the context is that the attempted coup was over 10 years ago, and democratic institutions have deteriorated further under Chavez. Would you care to address that point...or the soaring violent crime rates...or the inflation rates?

This is true, whatever about good 'intentions' the country has gone backward since he came to power. No sane person would say otherwise.

ArtSmart · 06-03-2013 01:07AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes, the context is that the attempted coup was over 10 years ago, and democratic institutions have deteriorated further under Chavez. Would you care to address that point...or the soaring violent crime rates...or the inflation rates?

So would socialist philosophy create these problems do you think?

or the weather?

or external agencies working against change in Venezuela?

or what. Exactly?

No system is perfect.

Be in Capitalist or Socialist.

Unless you feel one is inherently flawed?

ElChe32 · 06-03-2013 01:11AM

Descansa en paz Comandante Chavez

southsiderosie · 06-03-2013 01:14AM

ArtSmart wrote: »

So would socialist philosophy create these problems do you think?

or the weather?

or external agencies working against change in Venezuela?

or what. Exactly?

No system is perfect.

Be in Capitalist or Socialist.

Unless you feel one is inherently flawed?

I feel a system where power is consolidated under one person is flawed. I'm indifferent as to what kind of economic system is involved. Chavez created a one-man show in Venezuela, so he should be held responsible not only for good outcomes like poverty reduction, but bad outcomes as well, namely high inflation, high violent crime rates, and the squandering of the oil boom.

ArtSmart · 06-03-2013 01:20AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I feel a system where power is consolidated under one person is flawed. I'm indifferent as to what kind of economic system is involved. Chavez created a one-man show in Venezuela, so he should be held responsible not only for good outcomes like poverty reduction, but bad outcomes as well, namely high inflation, high violent crime rates, and the squandering of the oil boom.

same as this guy I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

for sure, it aint easy to determine what is good n what is bad. But what corporate America wants, US foreign policy wants.

and if that means crippling anyone who trods on corporate toes, so be it.

catallus · 06-03-2013 01:20AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I feel a system where power is consolidated under one person is flawed. I'm indifferent as to what kind of economic system is involved. Chavez created a one-man show in Venezuela, so he should be held responsible not only for good outcomes like poverty reduction, but bad outcomes as well, namely high inflation, high violent crime rates, and the squandering of the oil boom.

Power in any place in the world is never, ever consolidated under one person and never has been in the history of the world: even a cursory understanding of history would tell anyone this.

Anywhere in history, in any part of the world, power is always shared between the elite: it's called oligarchy. And under any system, be it the rule of sovereign kings, or communism, or parliamentary democracy, or anarchism, or fascism, or neo-conservative republicanism, an oligarchy always lurks behind the facade.

Henlars67 · 06-03-2013 01:25AM

padd b1975 wrote: »

A benign dictator was the soundbite I heard most used to describe him.

RIP all the same.

by the right wing media

southsiderosie · 06-03-2013 01:27AM

catallus wrote: »

Power in any place in the world is never, ever consolidated under one person and never has been in the history of the world: even a cursory understanding of history would tell anyone this.

Anywhere in history, in any part of the world, power is always shared between the elite: it's called oligarchy. And under any system, be it the rule of sovereign kings, or communism, or parliamentary democracy, or anarchism, or fascism, or neo-conservative republicanism, an oligarchy always lurks behind the facade.

Eh, cults of personality have long been a feature of politics. While they may have a cabal behind them, political life revolves around them. While the Chavez situation is not as extreme as say, Stalin's or Mao's regime, Stalin and Mao were the center of gravity within the political universe during their times.

Despite all of the hysteria around Barack Obama, if he dropped dead tomorrow, there would be a clear line of succession and we would not expect any wild swings in policies, major changes to the structure of the economy, or a military coup. In situations where political power is vested in an individual, the end of their reign often leads to chaos - nobody knows where their next deal is coming from, or who may be exiled/sent to the gulag, etc.

ArtSmart · 06-03-2013 01:27AM

catallus wrote: »

Power in any place in the world is never, ever consolidated under one person and never has been in the history of the world: even a cursory understanding of history would tell anyone this.

Anywhere in history, in any part of the world, power is always shared between the elite: it's called oligarchy. And under any system, be it the rule of sovereign kings, or communism, or parliamentary democracy, or anarchism, or fascism, or neo-conservative republicanism, an oligarchy always lurks behind the facade.

True.

Even a 'despot' needs help.

I think some are confusing end product with process.

If we accessed political systems by that yard stick only, Ireland and indeed the USA and many other countries are in some sorry state of political oppression.

The meeja and de money dance a complex dance. And whilst truth is tricky, black n white declarations of political validity must be avoided - unless independent credible bodies suggest otherwise.

AFAIK, the case for Chavez, is still out.

southsiderosie · 06-03-2013 01:32AM

ArtSmart wrote: »

I think some are confusing end product with process.

No. Both the process and the end product are deeply flawed in this case.

catallus · 06-03-2013 01:32AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Eh, cults of personality have long been a feature of politics. While they may have a cabal behind them, political life revolves around them. While the Chavez situation is not as extreme as say, Stalin's or Mao's regime, Stalin and Mao were the center of gravity within the political universe during their times.

Despite all of the hysteria around Barack Obama, if he dropped dead tomorrow, there would be a clear line of succession and we would not expect any wild swings in policies, major changes to the structure of the economy, or a military coup. In situations where political power is vested in an individual, the end of their reign often leads to chaos - nobody knows where their next deal is coming from, or who may be exiled/sent to the gulag, etc.

Cults of personality are just that: cults, a chimera to distract from the true powers; a good analogy in our present situation is the idea of parliamentary democracy (such as we have it) which at every turn bows down to the demands of the technocrats who are doing the bidding of the financial markets.

Political power is never, ever, ever, vested in an individual. It matters nothing about the system, the only question is how many people are in the elite.

Hugo Chavez has died

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