Hugo Chavez has died

fishy fishy

CucaFace wrote: »

Fishy fishy you are clearly one of these nonsensical socialists (probably a sine feiner no doubt) who cannot speak about facts or answer any direct questions, because you either don't know the answers or know that the answers prove your whole point complete wrong.

You are correct, Venezuela is not like N.Korea, and people are free up to a certain point to speak out, but Chavez also had a track record of shutting down TV stations that were not on his side.

He may not have been an out and out dictator, but he was heading that way as he could see the masses were turning against him as his pathetic economical practices were destroying the country.

He made it practically impossible for example for any overseas Venezuelan to vote in the last election as he knew they would be voting against him.

And unlike you I get my information from people who have actually lived under this guys regime, but perhaps you know more about this then them?

And these are normal people who work here as waiters, shop assistants, not the elite you and other socialists would like to suggest.

Going by what you are posting, I would have to say I would know more than them, yes.

Try not to call somebody a dictator/dictatorship for "effect" when you admit in further posts that its not true. that's where you (and your friends?) are going wrong

CucaFace

fishy fishy wrote: »

Going by what you are posting, I would have to say I would know more than them, yes.

Try not to call somebody a dictator/dictatorship for "effect" when you admit in further posts that its not true. that's where you (and your friends?) are going wrong

Where did I refer to him as a dictator earlier?

space_man

fishy fishy wrote: »

space_Man - you really need to do a bit of research into Venezuela, and Chavaz. You seem to have a "north Korean-esque" notion in your head which is completely and utterly inaccurate. and you and cucaface seem utterly confused to be honest. If you knew anything at all about Venezuela (no matter what viewpoint you had) you would know that your above statement is nonsense.

Also I think the word you are looking for is VENEZUELAN - that will take in the whole of Venezuala rather than just the people of Caracas.

no i'm familiar with that term. wanted to know what one calls a resident of Caracas. is Caracan correct?
is is true the late Senor Chavvy has sold all their oil reserves to the Chinese?
probably more ill-informed western propaganda.

Seaneh

space_man wrote: »

is is true the late Senor Chavvy has sold all their oil reserves to the Chinese?
probably more ill-informed western propaganda.

That's definitely ill-informed, seeing as they's just recently granted the Brazilian semi-state Petrobras the contract to extract their heavy crude...

losthorizon

southsiderosie wrote: »

Eh, I lived and worked in Latin America, have studied the region's politics extensively, and read and speak Spanish so I'm not getting my news filtered through the US media. And having lived with a Sandinista family, I am no stranger to the effect that US meddling has had in the region. I also acknowledged the venal nature of Venezuelan elites in an earlier post. In short, you don't really know shít about me, and your comments are way off-base.

That said, Chavez has always exhibited undemocratic 'tendencies' since his own failed coup in the early 1990s. He also squandered an oil boom, has presided over spiraling violent crime and inflation, stacked the courts and government with loyalists, and has generally had a deleterious effect on the country's democratic institutions. He is a classic caudillo, but more insidious than many of his predecessors because he uses the tools of democracy to weaken democracy. Just because he comes from the left rather than the right doesn't make it any better.

Having traveled round Chile and stayed in a very poor area with my Aunt who worked with the poor in Santiago I can understand why people would put their faith in someone like Chavez. Now Chile is probably the most developed country in Latin America but parts were poor ( in fairness other parts were very middle class). Having been taken by my Aunt to see where Pinochets men drowned opposition supporters and their torture area you can also understand why people are so distrustful of american involvement in the region which I think goes back to the time of Monroe if my political geography brain is still intact.

At one stage Pinochets men raided their house and fired at them. The bullet hole is still in the wall. My aunt was working with mothers of the disappeared until recently.
A continent and country that has Bingo live in a bus is OK by me.

A good film about the time is "NO" just out.

Chavez was wacky but I think he stood up for his country and in the last election he just won over 50% of the vote. Hardly the result of a despot.

losthorizon

SamHall wrote: »

Venezuela is a not a communist country. It's a federal republic, with a multiparty democratic political system.

Sheesh.

I find it funny that a european union country has had a coummunist president for the last five years who just barely failed to get re-elected about a month ago and no one says anything.

mbur

Seaneh wrote: »

That's definitely ill-informed, seeing as they's just recently granted the Brazilian semi-state Petrobras the contract to extract their heavy crude...

link?

Petrobras are into Bolivia alright. Of course the devil is in the detail. No word here of the profit sharing arrangement.

Greg Palast has an interesting insight

But to the oil companies, which had bitch-slapped Venezeula's prior government into giving them 84% of the sales price, a cut to 70% was "no bueno." Worse, Venezuela had been charging a joke of a royalty – just one percent – on "heavy" crude from the Orinoco Basin. Chavez told Exxon and friends they'd now have to pay 16.6%.

Clearly, Chavez had to be taught a lesson about the etiquette of dealings with Big Oil

Cancer you say?

fishy fishy

CucaFace wrote: »

Where did I refer to him as a dictator earlier?

usually you would only "like" a post if you agreed with it. Refer back to the posts you "liked" and there you will find your answer. :cool:

fishy fishy

space_man wrote: »

no i'm familiar with that term. wanted to know what one calls a resident of Caracas. is Caracan correct?
is is true the late Senor Chavvy has sold all their oil reserves to the Chinese?
probably more ill-informed western propaganda.

did you post not refer to Caracans being afraid to speak out??? Surely you are not dismissing the rest of Venezuela or is it just the capital that you are familiar with with the vast knowledge of the situation there. :rolleyes:

fishy fishy

CucaFace wrote: »

Fishy fishy you are clearly one of these nonsensical socialists (probably a sine feiner no doubt) who cannot speak about facts or answer any direct questions, because you either don't know the answers or know that the answers prove your whole point complete wrong.

You are correct, Venezuela is not like N.Korea, and people are free up to a certain point to speak out, but Chavez also had a track record of shutting down TV stations that were not on his side.

He may not have been an out and out dictator, but he was heading that way as he could see the masses were turning against him as his pathetic economical practices were destroying the country.

He made it practically impossible for example for any overseas Venezuelan to vote in the last election as he knew they would be voting against him.

And unlike you I get my information from people who have actually lived under this guys regime, but perhaps you know more about this then them?

And these are normal people who work here as waiters, shop assistants, not the elite you and other socialists would like to suggest.

if you want to speak about tv stations being shut down you might want to take a look at the revolution will not be televised.

VEN

Where To wrote: »

I've only ever met two Venezuelans in my life, and neither of them will shed a tear for him. So I won't either.

yea, i've met a few here in Ireland through friends and they all feel the same way.

Menas

I am gutted but am having his initials engraved on my bathroom taps to help remember him.

Benny_Cake

VEN wrote: »

yea, i've met a few here in Ireland through friends and they all feel the same way.

Probably a class thing though, wouldn't it be? As a rule, it would more than likely be Venezuelans from better-off backgrounds who would be living overseas and the wealthier sector of Venezuelan society has largely despised Chavez from day one. There was a photo of Venezuelan emigres celebrating his death on the streets of Miami, pretty ugly.

Personally I think he had some really great achievements, but also some glaring character flaws. Neither the saint some people believed him to be or the devil others saw him as. Hopefully the best aspects of his revolution can be carried forward without the cult of personality and economic mismanagement.

Johro

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Probably a class thing though, wouldn't it be? As a rule, it would more than likely be Venezuelans from better-off backgrounds who would be living overseas and the wealthier sector of Venezuelan society has largely despised Chavez from day one. There was a photo of Venezuelan emigres celebrating his death on the streets of Miami, pretty ugly.

Personally I think he had some really great achievements, but also some glaring character flaws. Neither the saint some people believed him to be or the devil others saw him as. Hopefully the best aspects of his revolution can be carried forward without the cult of personality and economic mismanagement.

Yes, exactly like the wealthy Cubans living and working in the USA. To appreciate socialism you have to be socially minded, and if you're career minded it wouldn't really grab you.

ArtSmart

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Well, it is certainly cheaper to buy a poor person's vote.

By that logic Chavez should have lost and the MNC supported rich should have won. Easily and repeatedly.

K-9

The reaction to his death shows me how supporters of any political belief an be as hypocritical as any New Labour spin doctor, Alastair Campbell would say job well done. Chavez seemed as power hungry as Putin to me, 2 sides of the same coin.

smileyj1987

R.I.P Hugo , you will be sorely missed .

IM0

goodnight my sweet prince

IM0

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I am gutted but am having his initials engraved on my bathroom taps to help remember him.

my sides!

MadYaker

I admired him for his bluntness and what he did for the poor in his country, but considering the vast amounts of oil Venezuela produces and the amount of money it generates their society and country as a whole should be a lot more first world. Also if you read more about Venezuela under his rule you'll hear a lot about political opponents being jailed, exiled or executed on trumped up charges so I guess he had a dark side too.

Mr. Wong

In honour of the passing of Hugo Chavez, I have had his initials inscribed onto my bathroom taps...

losthorizon

Madam_X wrote: »

Of course all nations have failings but Ireland and the UK, even the US, are far better places in which to live than dictatorships. It's not comparing like with like to blanketly apply the "All nations have failings" reasoning. Ireland has failings, so have Burma and Saudi Arabia and North Korea and Zimbabwe, but obviously Ireland is paradise compared to the other four. Besides abortion, how is treatment of women here sub-standard?

Lower pay for that same work done. Been shown in countless studies. I'm sure its the same in Venezuela as well though.

robp

losthorizon wrote: »

Lower pay for that same work done. Been shown in countless studies. I'm sure its the same in Venezuela as well though.

but the gap in Ireland is actually on par with many developed countries and is even lower than nations like Sweden and Finland (in some reports).

A lot of studies have also shown much of this is down to the subconscious level and at that level the bias occurs amongst women just as men. So although it remains something to be addressed, Ireland has no particular reason to be 'ashamed'.

xLexie

I thought that read huge chav has died

Fred Cohen

MadYaker wrote: »

Also if you read more about Venezuela under his rule you'll hear a lot about political opponents being jailed, exiled or executed on trumped up charges so I guess he had a dark side too.

Can you cite any of this as I would be very interested?

robp

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Can you cite any of this as I would be very interested?

Generally people point to this website.

http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

losthorizon

robp wrote: »

Generally people point to this website.

http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

None of those point to people being executed - its never been mentioned during any TV report during his time in power.

Nor really does it point to people being exiled.

It says prosecute but nothing about people being unjustly jailed. I follow world affairs fairly closely and he had plenty of failings.

But if you are going to put up a link at least read it first. Have you checked out the UKs or the USA's entry for Human Rights Watch. It does not make for pretty reading either.

Anyone who annoys the King of Spain is OK in my book. Maybe that's whats driven him to drink and shooting elephants in Africa.

robp

losthorizon wrote: »

None of those point to people being executed - its never been mentioned during any TV report during his time in power.

Nor really does it point to people being exiled.

It says prosecute but nothing about people being unjustly jailed. I follow world affairs fairly closely and he had plenty of failings.

But if you are going to put up a link at least read it first. Have you checked out the UKs or the USA's entry for Human Rights Watch. It does not make for pretty reading either.

Anyone who annoys the King of Spain is OK in my book. Maybe that's whats driven him to drink and shooting elephants in Africa.

First of all I wouldn't stand over MadYaker's claims word for word but Chavez very much had a dark side. When people defend him, they can only do so by comparing him to dictators. Any reasonable democracy (European or South American) is immeasurable superior. A personal cult like Chavez's is a clear warning of misgovernment. I am no fan of the Spanish monarchy but I would stress to you that hunting elephants is neither illegal or immoral.

Lightbulb Sun

robp wrote: »

First of all I wouldn't stand over MadYaker's claims word for word but Chavez very much had a dark side. When people defend him, they can only do so by comparing him to dictators. Any reasonable democracy (European or South American) is immeasurable superior. A personal cult like Chavez's is a clear warning of misgovernment. I am no fan of the Spanish monarchy but I would stress to you that hunting elephants is neither illegal or immoral.

He was removed as an honorary president of the Spanish WWF so that should show you how many thought his elephant hunting was "moral".

G Power

MadYaker wrote: »

I admired him for his bluntness and what he did for the poor in his country, but considering the vast amounts of oil Venezuela produces and the amount of money it generates their society and country as a whole should be a lot more first world. Also if you read more about Venezuela under his rule you'll hear a lot about political opponents being jailed, exiled or executed on trumped up charges so I guess he had a dark side too.

yes but if you truly knew the lengths he had to go to just to keep control of the country from outside forces you would probably have done the same in his position. Can you imagine what it's like to democratically elected and to have george fcuking bush try to remove you from your country and try put a yanky friend in power instead??