My LS430 - Converted to LPG - Review

Matt Simis · 05-03-2013 12:29AM

jca wrote: »

Maybe the posters here could give us some miles per pound figures from the two fuels.

I already made a calculator for this (well the inversion, cost per mile/km), just use LPG figures in place of "Biodiesel":
http://fuel.netcessible.com

jca · 05-03-2013 12:40AM

mullingar wrote: »

An old 18 with a 1.4, times have certainly changed since then. you must be a late 60's child

'64....

mullingar · 05-03-2013 12:44AM

jca wrote: »

'64....

'74 here.

Oul lad...

jca · 05-03-2013 12:47AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

I already made a calculator for this (well the inversion, cost per mile/km), just use LPG figures in place of "Biodiesel":
http://fuel.netcessible.com

Sorry too complicated for me my friend. Simple arithmetic is my preferred choice. Fill tank,set miles to zero....etc:)

Esel · 05-03-2013 12:57AM

Is it really the case that (ignoring cost) you get better MPG (or L/100km) from LPG than from petrol?

I always thought it was the other way round (although this was based on early 1980s conversion).

Has the current (2013) LPG installation technology somehow turned that on its head? If so is that because of injection efficiency etc (carbs in the 1980s....)?

mullingar · 05-03-2013 12:59AM

No. On *average* you need to add 10% consumption on lpg.

Esel · 05-03-2013 01:02AM

Same as the old days then! I thought so.

Tragedy · 05-03-2013 03:10AM

I get 29mpg in my car (fairly consistently, though will go down to 26-27 in very cold weather with lots of city driving).
People in the UK who have converted to LPG generally get 22-25.
10,000 miles @ 29mpg with petrol costing 156.9 = €2460
10,000 miles @ 25mpg with LPG costing 85c(LPGain) = €1545
Toroidal tanks in the ZT hold around 50l of gas net, 10,000 miles on LPG = 1818 litres(ignoring cold start on petrol and assuming I never have to travel on petrol).

37 fill ups required? Petrol = 24 fill ups. My nearest station is a 17.2 mile roundtrip away and around 40minutes traveltime in total. Also, the station is only open 8:30-18:00 during the week and four hours on a saturday

€3.12 on LPG to travel to the station each time x 37 = €115. 40minutes of my time @ minimum wage €5.7 x 37 = €210

So best case scenario, assuming I always fill up on LPG in the local station and somehow never run on petrol = €2460 per year on petrol vs €1870 on LPG

Realistically, I couldn't see myself doing more than 50% of my mileage on LPG(and that mostly due to the station in Laois just off the M7) so €2460 vs €2002. €1,300 for the conversion means it would take just over 3 years to repay for itself. Personally, don't feel it's worth it at those levels, especially when the LPG system is costing almost as much as the car is worth!

05-03-2013 09:08AM

Convert a prius would make mega savings.

A Prius MK II would be the same as a 90-94 mpg petrol or diesel cost wise
A Prius MK III would be the same as a 95-100 mpg petrol or diesel car.

Tea 1000 · 05-03-2013 12:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Convert a prius would make mega savings.

A Prius MK II would be the same as a 90-94 mpg petrol or diesel cost wise
A Prius MK III would be the same as a 95-100 mpg petrol or diesel car.

Assuming that the Prius makes it's original mpg claim which was always a little optimistic, and bear in mind that as the batteries won't be 100% any more it'll run on electric mode a little less often.
Also assuming one wants to own a Prius in the first place.

mullingar · 05-03-2013 12:46PM

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Also assuming one wants to own a Prius in the first place.

Anyway, I did the sums on my near worthless 25mpg '98 GS300 in running LPG.

When you factor in everything, fuel, tax, depreciation, to do 15k miles/year, my LPG converted GS300 has the exact same running costs as a 2006 1.9/2.0TDI (losing a cheap €1k/year depreciation)

I know what I'd sooner drive

jca · 05-03-2013 01:51PM

mullingar wrote: »

Anyway, I did the sums on my near worthless 25mpg '98 GS300 in running LPG.

When you factor in everything, fuel, tax, depreciation, to do 15k miles/year, my LPG converted GS300 has the exact same running costs as a 2006 1.9/2.0TDI (losing a cheap €1k/year depreciation)

I know what I'd sooner drive

The TDI??

05-03-2013 05:29PM

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Assuming that the Prius makes it's original mpg claim which was always a little optimistic, and bear in mind that as the batteries won't be 100% any more it'll run on electric mode a little less often.
Also assuming one wants to own a Prius in the first place.

Oh I can beat it!

But I should add that those figures were based on LPG @ 81C a litre. Not including the 75 C/L in Summer.

The battery is as good as new at 95,000 miles and the prius is known to go for 350,000 miles.

I regularly get 58-60 mpg but on F rated winter tyres.

Should go up when I ditch the tyres, they are even worse than my old ones. Didn't have a label when I bought them on eiretyres, but actually had it attached on the tyres themselves.

mickdw · 06-03-2013 12:14AM

Mad_Lad wrote: »

Oh I can beat it!

But I should add that those figures were based on LPG @ 81C a litre. Not including the 75 C/L in Summer.

The battery is as good as new at 95,000 miles and the prius is known to go for 350,000 miles.

I regularly get 58-60 mpg but on F rated winter tyres.

Should go up when I ditch the tyres, they are even worse than my old ones. Didn't have a label when I bought them on eiretyres, but actually had it attached on the tyres themselves.

A lexus gs450h on lpg. Now that would be interesting seeing as they havecreasonable tax too from 08 on.

06-03-2013 10:05AM

What's the tax on the 450h ?

It would be interesting indeed if they can be converted, but try find an 08 for under 20 grand, I know I would rather spend a few k extra and buy a new leaf and have ultra mega cheap electricity to drive on, I know that will offend the petrol heads.

The leaf is very satisfying to drive, I recommend people test drive it.

But from an economical point of view you would still be much better off with a Prius MK III on LPG if a Leaf is not for you.

Cash is king · 06-03-2013 10:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the tax on the 450h ?

It would be interesting indeed if they can be converted, but try find an 08 for under 20 grand, I know I would rather spend a few k extra and buy a new leaf and have ultra mega cheap electricity to drive on, I know that will offend the petrol heads.

The leaf is very satisfying to drive, I recommend people test drive it.

But from an economical point of view you would still be much better off with a Prius MK III on LPG if a Leaf is not for you.

A 08 GS 450h is about 660 to tax for the year iirc, why would you want a tramp of a Nissan or a Prius? They are awful yokes.

06-03-2013 10:24AM

Cash is king wrote: »

A 08 GS 450h is about 660 to tax for the year iirc, why would you want a tramp of a Nissan or a Prius? They are awful yokes.

I read somewhere the co2 was around 130 ? That would hardly be that expensive ?

True the are not much to look at, but the electric drive train is addictive, just test drive one and then you'll know what I'm talking about.

I'm going to get a new motor for my electric bike and it will have more torque than a 2.0 tdi golf in the weight of a bicycle, now that's fun I can tell ye!!!

Cash is king · 06-03-2013 10:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I read somewhere the co2 was around 130 ? That would hardly be that expensive ?

True the are not much to look at, but the electric drive train is addictive, just test drive one and then you'll know what I'm talking about.

I'm going to get a new motor for my electric bike and it will have more torque than a 2.0 tdi golf in the weight of a bicycle, now that's fun I can tell ye!!!

I thought it was about 600 but I am open to correction. Here is a 450 for under 20K, apologies for mobile link.
http://m.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201306212318470

mickdw · 06-03-2013 10:40AM

Gs 450h is around 660 to tax from 08 on. The current model of course may be much less but we are talking about the last one. Its still a bargain as an 07 is about 1700 per year to tax.

Matt Simis · 06-03-2013 12:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

True the are not much to look at, but the electric drive train is addictive, just test drive one and then you'll know what I'm talking about.

But the GS450H also has an electric drive in a far more powerful car..

mullingar · 06-03-2013 02:58PM

And, the GS450h has a fancy double injection system, one direct, one indirect, known to Toyota as the D4S system so its unable to be converted to LPG with a standard LPG kit.

D4S explaination:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc8aUxBZlsU

650Ginge · 06-03-2013 04:38PM

Mad_Lad wrote: »

Oh I can beat it!

But I should add that those figures were based on LPG @ 81C a litre. Not including the 75 C/L in Summer.

The battery is as good as new at 95,000 miles and the prius is known to go for 350,000 miles.

I regularly get 58-60 mpg but on F rated winter tyres.

Should go up when I ditch the tyres, they are even worse than my old ones. Didn't have a label when I bought them on eiretyres, but actually had it attached on the tyres themselves.

I can beat the official prius mpg figure too.

06-03-2013 11:17PM

Matt Simis wrote: »

But the GS450H also has an electric drive in a far more powerful car..

Yes far more powerful, but the electric drive is far different, the power delivery is far better, the shove of the Leaf is pretty amazing for a vehicle that weighs so much with only 110 hp because electrics have instant torque you don't need so much HP and since they are limited to 85 or so mph you don't need so much HP anyway. No good having a 300 HP car if you can't accelerate to even the limited speed of 150 mph or so, but it's the acceleration that makes the difference, or power delivery.

All the torque available at an instant, there is nothing to compare it to, vastly superior to any engine.

The GS450H may have electric drive but there is no comparing it to a full electric drive as with the Prius, you have lag, with all auto's and with two different power trains it can get a little laggy and I read that the lexus is no different.

With Electric, there is no lag, power delivery is instant.

THE Americans compare the Leaf's acceleration to a V6 petrol.

mickdw · 06-03-2013 11:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes far more powerful, but the electric drive is far different, the power delivery is far better, the shove of the Leaf is pretty amazing for a vehicle that weighs so much with only 110 hp because electrics have instant torque you don't need so much HP and since they are limited to 85 or so mph you don't need so much HP anyway. No good having a 300 HP car if you can't accelerate to even the limited speed of 150 mph or so, but it's the acceleration that makes the difference, or power delivery.

All the torque available at an instant, there is nothing to compare it to, vastly superior to any engine.

The GS450H may have electric drive but there is no comparing it to a full electric drive as with the Prius, you have lag, with all auto's and with two different power trains it can get a little laggy and I read that the lexus is no different.

With Electric, there is no lag, power delivery is instant.

THE Americans compare the Leaf's acceleration to a V6 petrol.

I suggest you drive a gs450h. Are you attempting to say that the shove in the back from a leaf is better than from a 450h? Maybe from 0 to 5 mph.

Matt Simis · 06-03-2013 11:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

THE Americans compare the Leaf's acceleration to a V6 petrol.

All the torque available at an instant, there is nothing to compare it to, vastly superior to any engine.

Kinda shooting yourself in the foot there, a V6 petrol is an economy engine to a Yank, so the statement is correct for reasons you misunderstood..

Deleted User wrote: »

110 hp because electrics have instant torque you don't need so much HP and since they are limited to 85 or so mph you don't need so much HP anyway. No good having a 300 HP car if you can't accelerate to even the limited speed of 150 mph or so, but it's the acceleration that makes the difference, or power delivery.

Another thread getting derailed with EVs and Prius's, but FWIW "HP" incorporates Torque and therefore acceleration. Electric motors also have RPM gradings and power delivery quirks which vary from DC to AC motor types.
Then there is axle torque and gearbox multiplication, you are grossly over simplifying the point of torque vs HP and usable "power".

07-03-2013 12:32AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

Kinda shooting yourself in the foot there, a V6 petrol is an economy engine to a Yank, so the statement is correct for reasons you misunderstood..
Another thread getting derailed with EVs and Prius's, but FWIW "HP" incorporates Torque and therefore acceleration. Electric motors also have RPM gradings and power delivery quirks which vary from DC to AC motor types.
Then there is axle torque and gearbox multiplication, you are grossly over simplifying the point of torque vs HP and usable "power".

Yes I know HP has both, however but an engine's hp can't be compared to a motor's hp, they are two completely different power trains.

A more favourable contender to the Lexus would be the Tesla model S, but the model S would be more comparable to a 4 litre engine. And beat the crap out of the lexus and BMW.

07-03-2013 12:34AM

mickdw wrote: »

I suggest you drive a gs450h. Are you attempting to say that the shove in the back from a leaf is better than from a 450h? Maybe from 0 to 5 mph.

No I'm just saying the power delivery is vastly superior to any engine.

You won't know until you drive one.

Compare the Lexus to the Tesla model S.

mickdw · 07-03-2013 12:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Compare the Lexus to the Tesla model S.

Fair enough but a leaf doesnt compare to either of them. power delivery only gets you so far. You should drive the lexus.... Lag is not a word I would use.

Mr Benevolent · 07-03-2013 12:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm going to get a new motor for my electric bike and it will have more torque than a 2.0 tdi golf in the weight of a bicycle, now that's fun I can tell ye!!!

Which motor is that? And what kind of battery do you use to power it? Just gone back to using the ebike myself, and while the shove in the back is there (mine is a 350w rated motor drawing 1kw at WOT) it runs out of puff in 10 seconds flat.

07-03-2013 01:17AM

Confab wrote: »

Which motor is that? And what kind of battery do you use to power it? Just gone back to using the ebike myself, and while the shove in the back is there (mine is a 350w rated motor drawing 1kw at WOT) it runs out of puff in 10 seconds flat.

Ah jaysus, 350 watts ?

HMm there are a few popping up these dyas, but the cromotor is one and the crystalyte "the crown" or x5xx series. The Crown is brand new and I can't get it just yet, but I got my eye on it.

You need a 20" wheel for sheer torque and bump up the voltage to 90-100 volts to get the speed you want. Going with a smaller diameter wheel also reduces stress on the motor with the advantage of more torque.

You absolutely must modify your rear dropouts for this power level, you are talking 9Kw with maybe 12+ kw peaks in the weight of a bicycle. And it's sheer torque.

A longer wheelbase and batteries are advisable as wheelies at 30 mph are scary and dangerous!

Install it on the front wheel and you will rip the front fork tight off.

As for batteries, well most of us in the high power electric bike world use RC LiPo such as Turnigy or Zippy, Turnigy being better, very cheap, very DIY and ultra dangerous if abused and must absolutely never be stored in the house (EVER) and in the shed with caution. But I've never had bother with them. They are completely different to anything used in most leccy cars, so don't confuse leccy cars as potential fireballs.

You will also need a new controller rated for the power or modified. basically everything you got needs to be replaced !

The hobby is expensive but ultra addictive but the ride is such a buzz, instant power is addictive, cars will never be the same again, ever !

My LS430 - Converted to LPG - Review

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