Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

Chris Martin · 28-02-2013 07:51PM

I said in my first post I was going to keep it brief and I shall.
It's plain I'm dealing with very opinionated people and in a topic such as this,
Opinions is all we have.

None of us know all the facts on it,
We don't know what the 6 year old is thinking,
What his parents are thinking,
And without that knowledge there is no right or wrong achievable.

I'm at a disadvantage unfortunately where I haven't read and memorized every piece of Irish and American legislation so I can't back my self up with references when available.

I'll take my leave for now though,
Have work and reading to catch up on,
Some of it related to this topic,
So might just be better informed when I do return..

Ush1 · 28-02-2013 07:52PM

MadsL wrote: »

So you agree with the legal provisions to prevent racism, sexism, bigotry, but trans rights are just a bit of a laugh to you, and a chance to have a snigger about changing rooms. Even when someone posts their personal experience of the huge struggle they have gone through to legally walk though that changing room door with the sign that matches the gender they identify with.

Lovely.

It's not a laugh, it's a possible logical conclusion that simply makes you uncomfortable and I find that rather insensitive.

Who are you to make light of me if I feel feminine from time to time?

Suppose you're also a racist bigot yadda yadda....

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 07:53PM

G.K. wrote: »

I'm not following what you are saying here?

Of course you dont.

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 07:54PM

awec wrote: »

If a parent gives the child the idea that they might be the opposite sex then of course they are going to pick up on that. That's what kids do.

Have we seen any evidence in any of the articles to confirm that this is what happened? That the parents sat the child down and suggested they were the wrong gender? Anything I've seen here pointing towards that has been pure speculation.

clairefontaine · 28-02-2013 07:54PM

MadsL wrote: »

That's exactly what it is about. The parents brought complaint under anti-discrimination legislation.

The problem though is that if they win it then discriminates against the other boys who can't go into the girls bathroom.

Can they sue too for discrimination? Aren't bathrooms inherintly discriminatory?

I don't know why people find this so hard to believe and have to throw around accusations of child abuse and all sorts of crap at the parents.

G.K. · 28-02-2013 07:55PM

awec wrote:

Children are impressionable. To suggest that this is nothing more than letting the child wear whatever clothes they want etc is foolish. In fact, I'd argue that it's a deliberate misrepresentation of the situation.

If a parent gives the child the idea that they might be the opposite sex then of course they are going to pick up on that. That's what kids do.

Are you ignoring the David Reimer case?

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Of course you dont.

Well would you kindly explain the post I quoted then?

awec · 28-02-2013 07:56PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Have we seen any evidence in any of the articles to confirm that this is what happened? That the parents sat the child down and suggested they were the wrong gender? Anything I've seen here pointing towards that has been pure speculation.

The parents said that at 18 months their child presented as female (though again, how anyone can deduce this for a child that age is incredibly questionable).

It seems fairly clear that from that age on they believed their child was female.

Given the young age of the child, it's far from unreasonable (in fact it's most likely) that the parents would have continued with this idea they had through the child's early years, when the child was incredibly impressionable.

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 07:56PM

If your child was born a girl but was a bit of a tomboy and wants to be a boy so you dress her like one. Would you be happy for her at 9 etc to go into the male toilets on her own?

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 07:56PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

The problem though is that if they win it then discriminates against the other boys who can't go into the girls bathroom.

How so? The issue is that they aren't allowed into the bathroom of the gender they associate with. If the other boys identify as male then how is this discrimination?

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 07:57PM

G.K. wrote: »

Are you ignoring the David Reimer case?

Well would you kindly explain the post I quoted then?

No, its simple enough.

awec · 28-02-2013 07:58PM

TheChizler wrote: »

How so? The issue is that they aren't allowed into the bathroom of the gender they associate with. If the other boys identify as male then how is this discrimination?

"The gender they associate with". That's the underlying issue here.

If a guy suddenly decides he is associating himself as being a girl, are you a bigot if you decide not to let him in the girls bathroom?

How associated do you have to be for it to be ok?

Where do you draw the line?

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 07:58PM

awec wrote: »

The parents said that at 18 months their child presented as female (though again, how anyone can deduce this for a child that age is incredibly questionable).

It seems fairly clear that from that age on they believed their child was female.

And from this second article this was clearly not the case, just a badly worded report in the original article. They were looking back at the 18 month child when they were 4 and onwards. The article explicitly states that they thought nothing of it at the time (18 months).

MadsL · 28-02-2013 07:59PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Legally transgender as in legally recognised as not the sex of your birth, it's not that complicated.

So you have to get hormone therapy despite the fact you are perfectly happy with how you look?

Wow. Do you go china shopping with your bull?

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by trying to establish the tickbox of medical steps?? Could you try some, um, tact?

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 07:59PM

awec wrote: »

How associated do you have to be for it to be ok?

Where do you draw the line?

When a professional has confirmed the association? As in this case?

There was nothing sudden about it, it had been going on consistently until the age of 4, the psychologist agreed that it was not just a phase.

Ush1 · 28-02-2013 08:01PM

MadsL wrote: »

Wow. Do you go china shopping with your bull?

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by trying to establish the tickbox of medical steps?? Could you try some, um, tact?

It's an internet message board. Ignore or don't reply o great defender of the trodden.

MadsL · 28-02-2013 08:03PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

"The American Dream" is a widely understood idealism, it's not xenophobia to attack an idealism. orestes was not criticising the country or the culture, they were criticising the idealism.

Less twist, easier get the gist.

Noted. And withdrawn.

G.K. · 28-02-2013 08:03PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No, its simple enough.

"Ye 6 and still a boy , what more proof do you want? Being camp doesnt make you transgender."

To me that is gobbeldegook. I don't get what the first half of the quote is trying to say.

And tell me where I have argued that being camp does make you transgender. Because I happen to agree with you that being camp doesnt make you transgender.

clairefontaine · 28-02-2013 08:04PM

TheChizler wrote: »

How so? The issue is that they aren't allowed into the bathroom of the gender they associate with. If the other boys identify as male then how is this discrimination?

Because it is still discrimination. They cannot go in because they are boys. It's also discrimination that the girls can't enter the boys bathrooms.

Also, you know you can't enter a playground unless you are accompanying a child? More discrimination.

You know I can't go topless on a public beach, but a man can?

Look, I'm not blanketly anti discrimination. It can get ridiculous.

This is ridiculous. I believe that he thinks he is a girl. I don't think the parents are abusing him or anything like that, but I would also think that what do you do about the gap between individual and consensual reality?

Chris Martin · 28-02-2013 08:05PM

MadsL wrote: »

You tell me.

You live a sheltered life. Male public toilets have all sorts of things going on that a seven year old boy should not be around alone. Do I have to spell that out for you.

Go to a public bathroom. Do think about this. Public, with lockable stalls.

Just saw this post,

In response to what age do you have to be to be condemned for going into another genders bathroom,
You said "You tell me..."
If I knew I wouldn't have asked the question,
I was lulled into thinking Male toilets for Males, Female toilets for Females.

I'm not sure where you're living but when I enter public toilets,
I seldom feel the need to take out life assurance first...
Yes, they're generally filthy and disgusting,
But if you're making out that all male public toilets have crackheads shooting up inside them preying on little boys to come inside to hold for ransom,
You might want to cut back on your films..

Again I raise the question,
At what point is it that a child can make a life changing decision such as changing gender when he is still unable to operate a lock on a public toilet..

I'm gone now,
Starting to irritate...
Sure you're a wonderful person,
Just share different opinions.

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 08:07PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Because it is still discrimination. They cannot go in because they are boys. It's also discrimination that the girls can't enter the boys bathrooms.

My point is that if they get the decision overturned it has no impact on the gender separation of the bathrooms, that situation existed before and will exist after this case, no change.

Edit: Makes me wonder why we have gender separation in bathrooms at all, the best reason I can think of is the perceived messiness of the other gender! If all bathrooms were combined suddenly there would understandably be uproar, cause the current situation is what we're used to. We share bathrooms in private homes, why not public? How did this start?

MadsL · 28-02-2013 08:08PM

Ush1 wrote: »

It's great isn't it? Gotta love the liberal world we live in, I'm off to the gym and might feel like a woman for an hour and hang out in the changing rooms!

Ush1 wrote: »

It's not a laugh, it's a possible logical conclusion that simply makes you uncomfortable and I find that rather insensitive.

Who are you to make light of me if I feel feminine from time to time?

Suppose you're also a racist bigot yadda yadda....

Yeah, sure whatever. In a thread with someone posting who actually is trans you still want to make it all a bit of a lads laugh. Mature.

TommyKnocker · 28-02-2013 08:13PM

Can I ask a question?

How can anybody who never suffered with any form of gender identity issue possibly understand what it is like to be transgender? How can you know at what age you realise you are trapped in the wrong body?

The answer is IMHO, you can't.

So until such times as you have a child, family friends who have gender identity issues you will have no idea what these parents have gone and are going through.

IMHO if you actually read more than the initial badly worded or possibly sensationalised report, then I think you would see that these parents do not deserve to be locked up and have their kids taken into care.

In actual fact it appears ot me as if they are giving their child the freedom to be who they want to be, If the child has been assessed by a qualified medical professional and deemed to be transgender, the school has accepted the child as a girl and there is a law which states that a transgender person has the right to use the facilities of the gender they identify with, then IMHO the parents are 100% correct to stand up for and back their child, though I am not sure I agree with having the childs face plastered all over the media.

I really feel for any of the future children of the folks on here lambasting the parents if your child ever comes to you and tells you they think they are trapped in the wrong body.

My 2 cents worth

St.Spodo · 28-02-2013 08:14PM

Transgender people exist; some people's gender doesn't match their biological one. That aside, how can a baby articulate its gender confusion, much less identify itself on the basis of gender? I suspect the parents have forced that notion upon the child.

MadsL · 28-02-2013 08:16PM

Chris Martin wrote: »

Just saw this post,

In response to what age do you have to be to be condemned for going into another genders bathroom,
You said "You tell me..."
If I knew I wouldn't have asked the question,
I was lulled into thinking Male toilets for Males, Female toilets for Females.

So a woman shopping alone should send her toddler son into a male public bathroom alone. You clearly are not a parent.

I'm not sure where you're living but when I enter public toilets,
I seldom feel the need to take out life assurance first...
Yes, they're generally filthy and disgusting,
But if you're making out that all male public toilets have crackheads shooting up inside them preying on little boys to come inside to hold for ransom,
You might want to cut back on your films..

Are you oblivious to the sexual activity that takes place in many male public toilets? Seriously? Do you consider the possibily of a seven year old watching another man masturbating in a public toilet to be appropriate? Are you seriously this naive?

Again I raise the question,
At what point is it that a child can make a life changing decision such as changing gender when he is still unable to operate a lock on a public toilet..

Way to completely miss the point.

I would ensure any child up to about the age of 11 would not be expected to use a shared male public bathroom alone. That simply isn't safe.

[/QUOTE]

awec · 28-02-2013 08:17PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Can I ask a question?

How can anybody who never suffered with any form of gender identity issue possibly understand what it is like to be transgender? How can you know at what age you realise you are trapped in the wrong body?

The answer is IMHO, you can't.

So until such times as you have a child, family friends who have gender identity issues you will have no idea wha tthese parents have and are going through.

IMHO if you actually read more than the initial badly worded or possibly sensationalised report, then I think you would see that these parents do not deserve to be locked up and have their kids taken into care.

In actual fact it appears ot me as if they are giving their child the freedom to be who they want to be, If the child has be accessed by a qualified medical professional and deemed to be transgender, the school has accepted the child as a girl and their is a lae whihc states that a transgender has the right to use the facilities of the gender they identify with, then IMHO the parents are 100% correct to back their child, though I am not sure I agree with having the child face plastered all over the media.

I really feel for any of the future children of the folks on here lambasting the paernts if your child ever comes to you and tells you they think they are trapped in the wrong body.

My 2 cents worth

This is a ridiculous argument to be fair.

Does that apply to those who are defending this who aren't transgender?

I suppose we should stop discussing the economic issues in Ireland too seeing as none of us have ever been Taoiseach.

Are you saying that only gay people can be pro-gay rights? Only black people can be anti-racist?

I'm pro gay marriage, are you saying I don't really understand what I am for seeing as I'm not gay?

What about all those men who are pro abortion?

Why do we have male doctors who treat women? How are they supposed to understand the needs of a woman? How can a male doctor give advice to a female about her period etc, he's never going to have one.

What about male psychologists who talk to women? How can they help a woman if they don't experience it personally?

You don't need to be something or have done something to understand it or have a reasonable opinion.

clairefontaine · 28-02-2013 08:17PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Can I ask a question?

How can anybody who never suffered with any form of gender identity issue possibly understand what it is like to be transgender? How can you know at what age you realise you are trapped in the wrong body?

The answer is IMHO, you can't.

So until such times as you have a child, family friends who have gender identity issues you will have no idea wha tthese parents have and are going through.

IMHO if you actually read more than the initial badly worded or possibly sensationalised report, then I think you would see that these parents do not deserve to be locked up and have their kids taken into care.

In actual fact it appears ot me as if they are giving their child the freedom to be who they want to be, If the child has be accessed by a qualified medical professional and deemed to be transgender, the school has accepted the child as a girl and their is a lae whihc states that a transgender has the right to use the facilities of the gender they identify with, then IMHO the parents are 100% correct to back their child, though I am not sure I agree with having the child face plastered all over the media.

I really feel for any of the future children of the folks on here lambasting the paernts if your child ever comes to you and tells you they think they are trapped in the wrong body.

My 2 cents worth

I agree with this. It's kind of horrible to read this thread, can seem heartless and ignorant. People are saying they are forcing this child to be a girl, when in fact, if they made the child be a boy it could crush the child entirely and you would end up with a very ****ed up adult.

It must be such a difficult position to be in as a parent, and hopefully their community is far less judgemental than this one is.

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 08:21PM

awec wrote: »

This is a ridiculous argument to be fair.

Does that apply to those who are defending this who aren't transgender?

I suppose we should stop discussing the economic issues in Ireland too seeing as none of us have ever been Taoiseach.

Are you saying that only gay people can be pro-gay rights? Only black people can be anti-racist?

I'm pro gay marriage, are you saying I don't really understand what I am for seeing as I'm not gay?

What about all those men who are pro abortion?

Why do we have male doctors who treat women? How are they supposed to understand the needs of a woman? How can a male doctor give advice to a female about her period etc, he's never going to have one.

What about male psychologists who talk to women? How can they help a woman if they don't experience it personally?

You don't need to be something or have done something to understand it or have a reasonable opinion.

They didn't say we shouldn't talk about it or have an opinion, so which part of it was ridiculous?

awec · 28-02-2013 08:21PM

TheChizler wrote: »

They didn't say we shouldn't talk about it or have an opinion, so which part of it was ridiculous?

The idea that to really understand something you have to experience it is ridiculous.

It's a convenient argument to hide behind.

A Primal Nut · 28-02-2013 08:24PM

MadsL wrote: »

Are you oblivious to the sexual activity that takes place in many male public toilets? Seriously? Do you consider the possibily of a seven year old watching another man masturbating in a public toilet to be appropriate? Are you seriously this naive?

I have never seen anything like that or even closely resembling that happen in a public toilet. Definitely sounds like scaremongering.

awec · 28-02-2013 08:25PM

MadsL wrote: »

Are you oblivious to the sexual activity that takes place in many male public toilets? Seriously? Do you consider the possibily of a seven year old watching another man masturbating in a public toilet to be appropriate? Are you seriously this naïve?

Are you for real?

Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

Comments