Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

Jimoslimos · 28-02-2013 09:09AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I could start calling my son a turtle now and in a year from now you'd find him making a good attempt at shoving his head up his ass convinced he's a turtle.

I wouldn't do that though because it'd be cruel and unusual, and it'd cost me a fortune in lettuce.

Tortoise don't you mean? Or is he actually a turtle forced to conform to tortoise species stereotypes in the body of a human. Poor boy:(

kylith · 28-02-2013 09:24AM

MadsL wrote: »

Says "I'm a girl" perhaps?

Child could be hermaphrodite genitally for all you know.

My 2yo nephew declared himself a dinosaur a while ago. Children say all sorts of stuff.

If the kid really is transgender, grand. Big whoop. But I think that 18 months is too young to diagnose something like that, especially if the method of diagnosis is 'likes to play with dolls'.

Can the child not just be told 'People with penises use this bathroom'? If he decides to have the penis removed later in life that's his own choice.

Czarcasm · 28-02-2013 09:30AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Tortoise don't you mean? Or is he actually a turtle forced to conform to tortoise species stereotypes in the body of a human. Poor boy:(

You could be right Jim, I'm hoping that one day he'll come out of his shell and present as either a tortoise or a turtle, I'll just have to wait around until he's decided for himself and then I can support him and love him and squeeze him all tight, not squeeze too tight though or he'll pop out of his shell and he'll look like a human while I'm left holding an empty husk.

I'll turn to my wife and lament the fact that my son is just a former shell of himself

MadsL · 28-02-2013 09:33AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I never said you or anyone else had. It was a different point. But you brought up puberty first, do you see the inevitable sh1tstorm that will arise when a boy forced into a stereotypical female role enters puberty with a flood of male hormones? Bad enough being already ashamed of what's between his legs without the horror of erections, wet dreams and unnatural facial hair growth. All difficult enough as is without being conditioned to believing these changes are 'wrong'.

No-one is forcing this child, I think is the point, except the school.

I'm amazed at how obsessed the world is with what people have between their legs and where they piss. Jesus, calm down.

MadsL · 28-02-2013 09:35AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

this attention seeking fantasist mother

Well if you disagree with someone, why not demonise them. :rolleyes:

pickarooney · 28-02-2013 10:02AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The Psychologist applied the 'Sewing Machine Test' obviously.

Is that an actual thing, to see if the child is more interested in what it does or how it works?

fatherted1969 · 28-02-2013 10:38AM

Coy Mathis, 6, was born a male but has presented as a female since she was 18-months-old, her mother Kathryn Mathis told talk show host Katie Couric.

The only thing i presented as a child was a sh1tty nappy

laoch na mona · 28-02-2013 10:43AM

you don't fully conform to a gender role till 7 or 8 at least so it is impossible for a toddler to be transgender as it has yet to fully learn its gender

Kev_2012 · 28-02-2013 10:51AM

This is a form of child abuse! Raise the child as a boy! It's a boy for fuck sake. What is wrong with some people??? What if the child feels like a male when he grows up? I'm sure raising him arseways won't affect him at all. Fucking PC brigade and weirdo parents like that make me sick. Let the child decide when hes 18.

I'm just waiting for people to start doing this http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/shared/characters/non-human/jewfin.jpg

Czarcasm · 28-02-2013 10:53AM

MadsL wrote: »

No-one is forcing this child, I think is the point, except the school.

I'm amazed at how obsessed the world is with what people have between their legs and where they piss. Jesus, calm down.

Hmm, I seem to remember as a zygote reading boards (I was very advanced for my age, that child presenting as trans at 18 months has nothing on me), there was another poster who used that exact phrasing to try and label everyone else as sexually obsessed transphobics!

What that poster failed to grasp was that everybody was more interested in what was between the mother's ears in that case too! The only ones obsessed with what is between the child's legs are the mother in this case, and your good self.

Everybody else is aware (thanks to the mother!) that the child has a penis, and the only ones who can't seem to accept this, are in this case again the child's mother, and your good self.

As another poster has suggested, when the child is old enough, they can have their penis shaped into a vagina, or would you support the idea of the child right now undergoing gender reassignment surgery? Would you support the idea of male genital mutilation, snip the nads and turn the shaft inside out and shove it back up in his body?

I think were you to suggest such an invasive and major life changing medical procedure to the child and ask them what they thought, I'd wager a million to one that they'd turn to the mother and say "ah here mam, this shìts gone far enough, can we sit down for a minute and talk about this?". Would you helpfully suggest that the sooner they transition, the better the results?

With all due respect Mad and not to put too fine a point on it but you'd be fcuked out of it by Rachel Ray or whoever the hell daytime talk show host that previously lauded you for your "courage, bravery and understanding". It was all fun and games with the pink and glittery shìt and we all had a good giggle, but when the reality kicks in and somebody loses a ball, ain't nobody laughing no more!

Handsome Bob · 28-02-2013 10:55AM

MadsL wrote: »

Possibly. It is also possible Coy will "grow out of it" - nothing the parents have done is any more permanent than ask the school for accommodation. The nurses station was the compromise, but it wasn't happening, Coy was being forced to use the boys toilet.

Astonishing how wound up people get about other people's bodies though.

Even if the kid "grows out of it", she's going to have a tough time being a he. Given the amount of media attention this has gotten (why on earth would the parents drag their 7 year old child onto national TV?), Coy just won't be able to forget about her "phase". This will follow the child for the rest of her life, regardless of what happens, and that's not fair.

Annasopra · 28-02-2013 10:56AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

True, a friend of mine realised at a very young age that he was a man, and not a girl and loathed having to go through all female schools for the entirety of his education. Thankfully now he gets to lead the life he wants, but it was a self-realisation, and not as young as 18 months.

I think they are influencing the child (and I say the as opposed to gender specific terms because I do not know how the child truly feels regarding it's gender) and not letting Coy grow for a few years and then realise, even at a young stage, that there was something just not sitting right with how things were in the genitalia dept. Even at 4 Coy could easily have recognised personally more as a female than a male, but it should have been a personal realisation, not one fed to you since toddler-hood, would you not agree?

How do you know the circumstances? How do you know it wasn't predominantly self realisation?

April O Neill · 28-02-2013 10:59AM

MadSL, you kinda killed this thread. It's a shame, the topic of people being transgender is an interesting one and these could have been good but you kinda deadened any kind of nuanced discussion on the subject.

Annasopra · 28-02-2013 11:03AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I'm not sure if the parents ever looked into it, but how many professionals would actually advise "gender reassignment" for an 18th month old Child?

Nobody would

Kev_2012 · 28-02-2013 11:04AM

MadsL wrote: »

No-one is forcing this child, I think is the point, except the school.

I'm amazed at how obsessed the world is with what people have between their legs and where they piss. Jesus, calm down.

The parents are forcing the child to be what they are not.
The school have to look out for the other kids in their care too, not just this child. Also if I had a little girl, the last thing I'd want is a man dressed as a woman using the same bathroom as her. Take that as an insult or not, I'm sure that 99% of parents would agree tbh.

Czarcasm · 28-02-2013 11:09AM

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Even if the kid "grows out of it", she's going to have a tough time being a he. Given the amount of media attention this has gotten (why on earth would the parents drag their 7 year old child onto national TV?), Coy just won't be able to forget about her "phase". This will follow the child for the rest of her life, regardless of what happens, and that's not fair.

Oh I wouldn't worry about the media following the child around, in a few weeks they'll move on to the next "princess boy" story who went one better and presented as trans when they were only six months, then someone else will go one better again claiming they're carrying a trans foetus!

Nobody remembers Dyson, the princess boy; about three years ago I think, American daytime crap talk shows were all over that shìt, not a word about him now.

It's like he disappeared into a vacuum.

Annasopra · 28-02-2013 11:12AM

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Ever hear of professional psychologists?
Maybe the parents should have consulted with one(at least) and asked them what they thought, after all even young adults who are confused about their gender go for therapy before making huge decisions..so why should it be different for parents the parents of this child who decided to dress up the child as a girl from 18 months old?

I know the child is 7 now

They did bring her to a psychologist

Jimoslimos · 28-02-2013 11:14AM

laoch na mona wrote: »

you don't fully conform to a gender role till 7 or 8 at least so it is impossible for a toddler to be transgender as it has yet to fully learn its gender

I remember having a discussion on this topic with a Gender and Sexuality Studies student in uni. On the issue of identity one thing she mentioned was a sociology experiment carried out, can't recall the exact details but the jist was as follows.

Men and women were asked to look in a mirror (or self-image) and describe themselves.

1) Men were more likely to describe themselves in non-gender defining terms (person, me, name, etc)

2) Women would refer to their gender in their description (e.g middle-aged woman).

3) Black/Ethnic Women would use both gender AND skin colour to describe themselves (this applied only to those living in minorities - same experiment in Africa would yield different results).

Point being a sense of identity is something acquired over time and is largely dependent on social interactions. It is not something you are born with - your physical characteristics are.

Czarcasm · 28-02-2013 11:15AM

mango salsa wrote: »

How do you know the circumstances? How do you know it wasn't predominantly self realisation?

I'm sure the man was old enough and mature enough at that stage to be able to tell everyone for himself, unlike in this case where the child is only six years of age and hasn't got the maturity of a marshmallow... actually, no, that description better suits the mother, who has deferred responsibility for the child's welfare upon an immature six year old child, who, even if you claim to be mature for their age, is still a long way shy of being able to understand fully the possible consequences of the decisions of a childish mind.

Annasopra · 28-02-2013 11:16AM

The Maverick wrote: »

When can a child make those decisions though? How old should they be? Did the parents make any effort to consult with a professional to see if this was a genuine issue or just a child's fantasy?

You till didnt address my point from earlier. What if the child wants to be a dog? Should the parents just accept that, take the child out of school and let her/him run around the garden all day? Should the law intervene then do you think?

Yes.

They bought her to a psychologist

laoch na mona · 28-02-2013 11:17AM

Kev_2012 wrote: »

The parents are forcing the child to be what they are not.
The school have to look out for the other kids in their care too, not just this child. Also if I had a little girl, the last thing I'd want is a man dressed as a woman using the same bathroom as her. Take that as an insult or not, I'm sure that 99% of parents would agree tbh.

if that "man" identifies as a "woman" then she is a woman

male and female are biological man and woman are socially constructed identies

Annasopra · 28-02-2013 11:21AM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Yes. Their gender identity is their sex. Like the rest of the animal kingdom. humans are not special. With tiny exceptions - hermaphroditism - sex is gender.

Gender and Sex are actually different

Czarcasm · 28-02-2013 11:23AM

MadsL wrote: »

Well if you disagree with someone, why not demonise them. :rolleyes:

You should look up the difference between demonising, and ridiculing.

Idiots who foist themselves upon their own petard deserve to be ridiculed, nobody deserves to be demonised, but that's just my own personal opinion, and I'm mature enough to understand that not everybody shares my world view, unlike the child in this case whose mother has thrust them into the spotlight in an attempt to further her own validation seeking efforts.

MadsL · 28-02-2013 11:28AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Hmm, I seem to remember as a zygote reading boards (I was very advanced for my age, that child presenting as trans at 18 months has nothing on me), there was another poster who used that exact phrasing to try and label everyone else as sexually obsessed transphobics!

What that poster failed to grasp was that everybody was more interested in what was between the mother's ears in that case too! The only ones obsessed with what is between the child's legs are the mother in this case, and your good self.

Plainly untrue.

Everybody else is aware (thanks to the mother!) that the child has a penis, and the only ones who can't seem to accept this, are in this case again the child's mother, and your good self.

Utter horseshit. You just cannot accept that a child can make some expression of a gender identity.

As another poster has suggested, when the child is old enough, they can have their penis shaped into a vagina, or would you support the idea of the child right now undergoing gender reassignment surgery? Would you support the idea of male genital mutilation, snip the nads and turn the shaft inside out and shove it back up in his body?

Nobody has suggest that, not I or any other poster. Blatant misrepresentation.

I think were you to suggest such an invasive and major life changing medical procedure to the child and ask them what they thought, I'd wager a million to one that they'd turn to the mother and say "ah here mam, this shìts gone far enough, can we sit down for a minute and talk about this?". Would you helpfully suggest that the sooner they transition, the better the results?

I haven't and wouldn't. More massive misrepresentation.

With all due respect Mad and not to put too fine a point on it but you'd be fcuked out of it by Rachel Ray or whoever the hell daytime talk show host that previously lauded you for your "courage, bravery and understanding". It was all fun and games with the pink and glittery shìt and we all had a good giggle, but when the reality kicks in and somebody loses a ball, ain't nobody laughing no more!

Completely hypothetical with no basis in anything I have posted.

April O Neill wrote: »

MadSL, you kinda killed this thread. It's a shame, the topic of people being transgender is an interesting one and these could have been good but you kinda deadened any kind of nuanced discussion on the subject.

Well, as I am being so misrepresented by Czarcasm posting from a under a structure that rhymes with fridge I'm off to bed I look forward to reading your insights when I wake.

mango salsa wrote: »

Nobody would

Nobody did.

Annasopra · 28-02-2013 11:37AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I never said you or anyone else had. It was a different point. But you brought up puberty first, do you see the inevitable sh1tstorm that will arise when a boy forced into a stereotypical female role enters puberty with a flood of male hormones? Bad enough being already ashamed of what's between his legs without the horror of erections, wet dreams and unnatural facial hair growth. All difficult enough as is without being conditioned to believing these changes are 'wrong'.

They can take hormone blockers

Crooked Jack · 28-02-2013 11:45AM

laoch na mona wrote: »

if that "man" identifies as a "woman" then she is a woman

male and female are biological man and woman are socially constructed identies

What a crock of shit. A man is an adult human male. That's what you call an adult human male. It's not an identity it's just what you are.
That's why the term man applies to all adult human males regardless of their own identities, differences, sexual preferences or life style choices.

MadsL · 28-02-2013 11:51AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You should look up the difference between demonising, and ridiculing.

Idiots who foist themselves upon their own petard deserve to be ridiculed, nobody deserves to be demonised, but that's just my own personal opinion, and I'm mature enough to understand that not everybody shares my world view, unlike the child in this case whose mother has thrust them into the spotlight in an attempt to further her own validation seeking efforts.

Wow you should be a trick cyclist. Oh you are not? Just pop psych stuff you read somewhere to ridicule people who don't share your world view. I'll ignore it then.

Crooked Jack · 28-02-2013 11:51AM

mango salsa wrote: »

They can take hormone blockers

Oh.My.Holy.God.

Chuck Stone · 28-02-2013 11:59AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Is that an actual thing, to see if the child is more interested in what it does or how it works?

Na. I saw it on Curb Your Enthusiasm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wQ8vJKKBuc

starlings · 28-02-2013 12:01PM

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Also if I had a little girl, the last thing I'd want is a man dressed as a woman using the same bathroom as her. Take that as an insult or not, I'm sure that 99% of parents would agree tbh.

[Not a parent]

When your hypothetical daughter is old enough to use public toilets by herself, she'll go into a cubicle to do her business, then share the sinks with women of all ages, shapes, sizes. There's often eye contact in the mirror, pleasantries exchanged, toiletries swapped, chitchat, instructions shared on new-fangled taps/hand-dryers... She may even get a kick out of meeting a man dressed as a woman on a drag or fancy dress night out in a club.

The things that bother most women about public toilets are poor standards of cleaning and running out of toilet paper, so I don't see how a transvestite or transgendered woman is going to cause a problem.

Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

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