Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

Crooked Jack

starlings wrote: »

[Not a parent]

When your hypothetical daughter is old enough to use public toilets by herself, she'll go into a cubicle to do her business, then share the sinks with women of all ages, shapes, sizes. There's often eye contact in the mirror, pleasantries exchanged, toiletries swapped, chitchat, instructions shared on new-fangled taps/hand-dryers... She may even get a kick out of meeting a man dressed as a woman on a drag or fancy dress night out in a club.

The things that bother most women about public toilets are poor standards of cleaning and running out of toilet paper, so I don't see how a transvestite or transgendered woman is going to cause a problem.

Well why bother with separate facilities at all then. Why not just have all unisex toilets and keep them clean and well stocked

Madam_X

Kev_2012 wrote: »

The parents are forcing the child to be what they are not.
The school have to look out for the other kids in their care too, not just this child. Also if I had a little girl, the last thing I'd want is a man dressed as a woman using the same bathroom as her. Take that as an insult or not, I'm sure that 99% of parents would agree tbh.

Lol, but a man who dresses as a man (e.g. you, her hypothetical father) is fine to use the same bathroom as her.
A transgender person isn't someone who simply dresses a certain way btw, and your hypothetical daughter wouldn't catch or see anything.

starlings

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Well why bother with separate facilities at all then. Why not just have all unisex toilets and keep them clean and well stocked

That is actually starting to catch on in new buildings in the UK and the Netherlands. Smaller bars on the continent often just have one unisex toilet just as toilets in people's homes are shared.

I don't think sharing toilets is much of a problem, and it seems to be brought up as an issue to use against transgender people, when actually they are conforming to gender norms by using the ladies'/gents'. I'm curious: would men have a problem sharing urinals with a post-op transgender man, or if a pre-op trans man uses a cubicle in the gents'?

awec

The article, and the attempts of the usual suspects falling over themselves to try and justify this, are disgusting. Attention seeking at it's worst.

Kev_2012

starlings wrote: »

[Not a parent]

When your hypothetical daughter is old enough to use public toilets by herself, she'll go into a cubicle to do her business, then share the sinks with women of all ages, shapes, sizes. There's often eye contact in the mirror, pleasantries exchanged, toiletries swapped, chitchat, instructions shared on new-fangled taps/hand-dryers... She may even get a kick out of meeting a man dressed as a woman on a drag or fancy dress night out in a club.

The things that bother most women about public toilets are poor standards of cleaning and running out of toilet paper, so I don't see how a transvestite or transgendered woman is going to cause a problem.

Madam_X wrote: »

Lol, but a man who dresses as a man (e.g. you, her hypothetical father) is fine to use the same bathroom as her.
A transgender person isn't someone who simply dresses a certain way btw, and your hypothetical daughter wouldn't catch or see anything.

Does it matter that I'm not a parent? I'd still feel the same way. Ok then, I actually do have 2 young nieces and I still wouldn't like the idea.

No, a women's bathroom is for women (not men dressing as women) and vice versa.
Ok so who is it to determine that someone is transgender? Could I all of a sudden decide to be a woman and start using the women's bathroom? I accept that some people are like this, but this isn't as black and white as people are making it out to be.

MadsL

starlings wrote: »

That is actually starting to catch on in new buildings in the UK and the Netherlands. Smaller bars on the continent often just have one unisex toilet just as toilets in people's homes are shared.

I don't think sharing toilets is much of a problem, and it seems to be brought up as an issue to use against transgender people, when actually they are conforming to gender norms by using the ladies'/gents'. I'm curious: would men have a problem sharing a urinal with a post-op transgender man, or if a pre-op trans man uses a cubicle in the gents'?

Wut? Messy no? With no longer having a penis? Personally I never try to share a urinal when people are using it, they don't like it and bail is expensive.

starlings

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Does it matter that I'm not a parent? I'd still feel the same way. Ok then, I actually do have 2 young nieces and I still wouldn't like the idea.

No, a women's bathroom is for women (not men dressing as women) and vice versa.
Ok so who is it to determine that someone is transgender? Could I all of a sudden decide to be a woman and start using the women's bathroom? I accept that some people are like this, but this isn't as black and white as people are making it out to be.

Sorry - I'm not a parent either, so I wrote that at the top of my post because you had guessed that 99% of parents would agree with you and I wanted to be clear. My fail.

My point is that if you did decide to be a woman and use women's bathrooms, you would appear and behave in a way that would not threaten or upset the others using the bathroom.

fasttalkerchat

You don't use the toilet that reflects your gender identity or what clothes you wear, you choose a toilet based on what's between your legs.
So if youre a woman with a dick you use the mens.
Maybe we should call it picks and ***** rather than mens and ladies but that would offend some other group!

starlings

MadsL wrote: »

Wut? Messy no? With no longer having a penis? Personally I never try to share a urinal when people are using it, they don't like it and bail is expensive.

obviously it's been a while since I ducked into the men's because the women's was packed! edited.

also, I meant a female-to-male transgender man.

Crooked Jack

starlings wrote: »

That is actually starting to catch on in new buildings in the UK and the Netherlands. Smaller bars on the continent often just have one unisex toilet just as toilets in people's homes are shared.

I don't think sharing toilets is much of a problem, and it seems to be brought up as an issue to use against transgender people, when actually they are conforming to gender norms by using the ladies'/gents'. I'm curious: would men have a problem sharing a urinal with a post-op transgender man, or if a pre-op trans man uses a cubicle in the gents'?

To be honest Im all in favour of separate public toilets but that is purely because every time i go to a play/club/cinema/bar anywhere basically there is always a mile long queue for the women's whereas i can just slip into the gents fairly quickly.
On principal I have no issue with unisex toilets.
Nor would I use toilets in general as a stick to attack anyone.
Regarding your question, I could care less what some other dude using the urinal looks like. i obey the code. Look dead ahead or down at your own wang. Conversation is for elsewhere.

kunst nugget

mango salsa wrote: »

Nobody would

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

kylith

starlings wrote: »

TI'm curious: would men have a problem sharing urinals with a post-op transgender man, or if a pre-op trans man uses a cubicle in the gents'?

I'm curious as to whether a post-op, constructed, penis would actually function this way or whether it's purely cosmetic.

starlings

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Regarding your question, I could care less what some other dude using the urinal looks like. i obey the code. Look dead ahead or down at your own wang. Conversation is for elsewhere.

conversation is for the women's - awful gossipy place.

kingtut

If you ask me I'd say it's a cock and balls story :pac:

/gets coat

Crooked Jack

starlings wrote: »

conversation is for the women's - awful gossipy place.

Hence the huge queues. Long live segregation.

Czarcasm

MadsL wrote: »

Plainly untrue.

It's about as true as a child presenting as trans at 18 months! My parents were into some kinky shìt and one misplaced psion PDA later I said I'll be having that, and discovered boards. I was too young to register because legally I had to wait til I was 13 years of age, but I was reading boards before boards was even cool.

I won't link to that posters post as it was a conversation that was had last year and I don't do that creepy post history crawling crap.

Utter horses[SIZE="2"]hit[/SIZE]. You just cannot accept that a child can make some expression of a gender identity.

Of course I can, but what this mother cannot accept is that a child questioning their gender identity is a natural phase of one of many phases of child development. But what's happening here is that the mother is stunting her child's natural mental development by trapping them in a phase they would normally not have gotten such focus. It's the very same as a parent that wants to keep their child innocent and so guides them away from anything sexual.

What this mother is doing is the opposite end of the spectrum- focussing the child's mind on their gender identity at the cost of broadening the child's world view. She is trying to change the world to suit the child, instead of giving the child the tools and education to enable THEM to change the world.

Nobody has suggest that, not I or any other poster. Blatant misrepresentation.

They suggested that when the child was old enough they could elect to have the procedure done.

That was not misrepresentation, and mine was a question, much like your own you posted earlier, which I at least had the courtesy to answer, unlike your good self who has gleefully avoided it because it suited you yet again to try and divert from it, yet you berate others earlier in the thread for stunting the discussion.

I haven't and wouldn't. More massive misrepresentation.

Again it wasn't misrepresentation, it was a question, which at least you have answered, but given very little in the way of developing your opinion, again stunting the discussion, and I don't want to do "20 questions" because that's an interrogation, not a discussion, so only one more if I may-

Where do you personally draw the line between what the child wants, and what you would want, for the child?

Completely hypothetical with no basis in anything I have posted.

Completely hypothetical, but it is a more valid hypothesis than a claim that a child identifies as female, hypothesised by the "evidence" presented that the child displays atypical stereotypical gender behaviors.

Well, as I am being so misrepresented by Czarcasm posting from a under a structure that rhymes with fridge I'm off to bed I look forward to reading your insights when I wake.

If I say it's a ridge, it's a ridge, and seven billion people including expert engineers can call it a fridge, but that's just their normalised perception and their inferior need to categorise the world around them into neatly labelled boxes! Closed minded bastards, they're all wrong, and I'm right, because I'm enlightened enough to have an open mind about everything, so I present my fridge as a ridge and to hell with the rest of the world who haven't a clue what I'm talking about because they're too low brow to grasp the concept that my ridge is a ridge, they just don't understand because they identify it as a fridge.

They need to build a bridge.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

Blah Blah Blah.

So what's your story then MadsL and why such strong opinions? I've met a right few regular transexuals through friends and they all said it was early teens when they started to feel it different.. And they'd frankly laugh at the idea of an 18month old wanting to be change.

I don't think anyone here gives a crap about trans.. They care about a child being abused. But you're taking everything as a personal insult and it's really tiresome to read.

Czarcasm

MadsL wrote: »

Wow you should be a trick cyclist. Oh you are not? Just pop psych stuff you read somewhere to ridicule people who don't share your world view. I'll ignore it then.

You should see me go on a unicycle! It's not pop psych stuff at all either, or anything close to it, what you're identifying as pop psych is merely common sense to everyone else.

You're entitled to finger your ears all you want, but when you do, your opinion isn't worth any more regard than a clown on a penny farthing.

Kev_2012

starlings wrote: »

Sorry - I'm not a parent either, so I wrote that at the top of my post because you had guessed that 99% of parents would agree with you and I wanted to be clear. My fail.

My point is that if you did decide to be a woman and use women's bathrooms, you would appear and behave in a way that would not threaten or upset the others using the bathroom.

Ah! Makes more sense haha.

Ya I understand what you are saying, I find it very difficult to shake the fact that a person with a penis is a man and a person with a vagina is a woman! These threads always remind me of that scene in The Life of Brian where your man wants to become "Loretta", but it's just impossible for a man to ever fully become a woman so it's a little difficult to accept a man/woman as someone of the opposite sex because they physiologically aren't and can't ever be! For example, I would not like to start seeing a girl only to find out she is/was a man. I'd be so pissed off and disgusted! Not trying to offend anyone, but the thoughts of having relations with a man or transgender woman make me sick!

clairefontaine

There is a bigger question here, and that is how far should public institutions like schools go to accommodate difference?

How far do we validate difference in perception. These kids GENUINELY believe they are the other gender, it's not a question of dress up or fantasy, but of belief. You can have a boy who likes to wear skirts or play with dolls and still KNOW he is a boy, but then you have those who really do believe they are girls, and vice versa.

So, they let boys who think they are girls into the girls bathrooms. What about religions where they use bidets? Should we expect them to build those in to the bathrooms too? Or is there a point to gender segregated toilets.

How come so many threads on AH boil down to toilet usage?

GalwayGirl00

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/27/coy-mathis-colorado-trans_n_2776472.html


This seems to be a more informative account of what happened...:rolleyes:

Kev_2012

Actually, back OT,

Why the hell are they raising him as a girl anyway?
Did they always want a girl or something?

anncoates

clairefontaine wrote: »

How come so many threads on AH boil down to toilet usage?

Down with The Cistern.

/lame

mossieh

This thread has been an eye-opener. I'd sure hate to be born a transgender kid to most of the people here. I have young kids myself and I'd like to think that I'd accept and support them whatever combination of gender/sexual/physical characteristics they manifested. I honestly thought that there would be a more nuanced view of things here, given the age profile of most posters here. Ah well.

starlings

clairefontaine wrote: »

There is a bigger question here, and that is how far should public institutions like schools go to accommodate difference?

How far do we validate difference in perception. These kids GENUINELY believe they are the other gender, it's not a question of dress up or fantasy, but of belief. You can have a boy who likes to wear skirts or play with dolls and still KNOW he is a boy, but then you have those who really do believe they are girls, and vice versa.

So, they let boys who think they are girls into the girls bathrooms. What about religions where they use bidets? Should we expect them to build those in to the bathrooms too? Or is there a point to gender segregated toilets.

How come so many threads on AH boil down to toilet usage?

I brought up the toilets on the first page of this thread because it stuck me as an illogical argument that the school in question was using. It's also in the thread title.

starlings

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Not trying to offend anyone, but the thoughts of having relations with a man or transgender woman make me sick!

well, you are the one thinking those thoughts...

:P

Shenshen

Let the kid be whatever she wants.
I don't honestly see any issues regarding developing genitals, what does the school think goes on in their loos?
Little girls flashing their fannies and comparing them?

There are stalls, nobody sees anybody's private parts, so why not allow this kid to use whichever toilet they feel happy with?

GalwayGirl00

we all accept our children as they are (I would hope most people do) but what about the other kids in the school? YES , they should be thought to respect others and others differences, but I don't know any chlid that would be comfortable with sharing a toilet with the other sex. Even my girl who is 10 gets embarrassed when we go swimming and younger boys come in with their mums to get changed into the ladies changing room. And even when she is fully clothed when they come in, she certainly doesnt want to see a boys private parts! (long may that last!!)
At school she wouldn't have an option to avoid that embarrassment, ..''your freedom ends where mine begins''...I wouldn't force people to accept my way of thinking and no-one should feel they can force their opinions on me. The child in question was offered the alternative to use the nurses toilet, to me that seems like a good alternative to keep the child in school

Czarcasm

starlings wrote: »

That is actually starting to catch on in new buildings in the UK and the Netherlands. Smaller bars on the continent often just have one unisex toilet just as toilets in people's homes are shared.

I don't think sharing toilets is much of a problem, and it seems to be brought up as an issue to use against transgender people, when actually they are conforming to gender norms by using the ladies'/gents'. I'm curious: would men have a problem sharing urinals with a post-op transgender man, or if a pre-op trans man uses a cubicle in the gents'?

Usually when I'm out in public (a nightclub or a bar for instance), and I'm bursting to go, I'll hit the first door I meet, never mind checking to see it's for Frankie or Johnny first (for those who don't get the reference!).

It's never bothered me, and it's certainly never bothered the girls, and it has the added benefit of avoiding all those penis measuring contests in the packed gents washrooms (it's the angle you're looking at it from lads that's the reason it looks bigger than yours! ).

Personally speaking it wouldn't bother me if the person beside me was a post-op, pre-op, hell an extra terrestrial or celestial entity, I couldn't care less, I'm there to pee, not pick up strangers!

kunst nugget

Kev_2012 wrote: »

For example, I would not like to start seeing a girl only to find out she is/was a man. I'd be so pissed off and disgusted! Not trying to offend anyone, but the thoughts of having relations with a man or transgender woman make me sick!

I'm sure all the transgender people out there are so upset by this. You seem like a real catch.