Sinn Féin,s "Republic Day".

barbiegirl · 25-02-2013 10:40PM

The lack of knowledge of both modern and old Irish history is astounding on this thread. The majority of the Irish people supported the War of Independence. They therefore were NOT terrorists and I reject any assertion that they were so vehemently. The electorate of this land voted for an independent country in 1918 having been lied to and let down once again, in relation to Home Rule by the British. Who also refused us the right to speak at Versailles when WW1 was meant to be about self determination for small nations.

In modern history, the Catholic people of NI were treated horribly. No one man, one vote. It was a disgrace and until Bloody Sunday largely unknown to the rest of the world. The civil rights movement world wide was reflected in the north and initially the IRA was resurrected to protect the people.

Then a horrible war of attrition by both sides broke out and it had less to do with protecting and more to do with power, blood lust and hatred on both sides. They are the terrorists.

Those of you equating the great men and women who risked their lives, so that you could be free should be ashamed of yourselves. Leave, go else where because this country will only get back on her feet with people of heart and loyalty, willing to work and sacrifice not ill educated, apologists. Whatever the hell happens to this country I'm Irish and damned proud to be so.

Rarely does barbiegirl get angry but hell some of the posts here, on both sides are disgusting.

Fratton Fred · 25-02-2013 10:42PM

Nodin wrote: »

More innuendo and s[SIZE="2"]hi[/SIZE]te Fred? Quelle Suprise.

Blind adoration of the provos Nodin?

I mean, it's not like the IRA didn't have connections in Columbia is it.

Monitoring elections pfft.

Happyman42 · 25-02-2013 10:42PM

Could somebody please explain how an organisation which is essentially subversive raises funding to mount the campaign that they are being subversive for?

And just for the craic, show us all, where in the world, revolutionaries, freedom fighters, terrorists, paramilitaries raised funds through legal means?...(unless of course they where funded and armed from a central government coffers. That'd be kosher wouldn't it? :rolleyes:)

Nodin · 25-02-2013 10:45PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could somebody please explain how an organisation which is essentially subversive raises funding to mount the campaign that they are being subversive for?
And just for the craic, show us all, where in the world, revolutionaries, freedom fighters, terrorists, paramilitaries raised funds through legal means?...(unless of course they where funded and armed from a central government coffers. That'd be kosher wouldn't it? :rolleyes:)

Bingo nights..always gets a few squid in. Raffles....Quiz night always ends badly, as nobody will answer any questions....

Happyman42 · 25-02-2013 10:55PM

barbiegirl wrote: »

The lack of knowledge of both modern and old Irish history is astounding on this thread. The majority of the Irish people supported the War of Independence. They therefore were NOT terrorists and I reject any assertion that they were so vehemently. The electorate of this land voted for an independent country in 1918 having been lied to and let down once again, in relation to Home Rule by the British. Who also refused us the right to speak at Versailles when WW1 was meant to be about self determination for small nations.

In modern history, the Catholic people of NI were treated horribly. No one man, one vote. It was a disgrace and until Bloody Sunday largely unknown to the rest of the world. The civil rights movement world wide was reflected in the north and initially the IRA was resurrected to protect the people.

Then a horrible war of attrition by both sides broke out and it had less to do with protecting and more to do with power, blood lust and hatred on both sides. They are the terrorists.

Those of you equating the great men and women who risked their lives, so that you could be free should be ashamed of yourselves. Leave, go else where because this country will only get back on her feet with people of heart and loyalty, willing to work and sacrifice not ill educated, apologists. Whatever the hell happens to this country I'm Irish and damned proud to be so.

Rarely does barbiegirl get angry but hell some of the posts here, on both sides are disgusting.

That's where the row gets started because there are those in NI(and the South) who believe that the IRA achieved for them what was achieved for the south by the War Of Independence. No amount of you or anyone else telling them that they didnt achieve that is going to change their minds, they where at the coalface after. Those people rewarded SF with their votes. SF now share power in NI. See the complication your condemnation and hypocritical adulation of one and not the other causes?

Fratton Fred · 25-02-2013 10:59PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could somebody please explain how an organisation which is essentially subversive raises funding to mount the campaign that they are being subversive for?
And just for the craic, show us all, where in the world, revolutionaries, freedom fighters, terrorists, paramilitaries raised funds through legal means?...(unless of course they where funded and armed from a central government coffers. That'd be kosher wouldn't it? :rolleyes:)

Good Republicans like Slab Murphy?

Fratton Fred · 25-02-2013 11:01PM

barbiegirl wrote: »

The lack of knowledge of both modern and old Irish history is astounding on this thread. The majority of the Irish people supported the War of Independence. They therefore were NOT terrorists and I reject any assertion that they were so vehemently. The electorate of this land voted for an independent country in 1918 having been lied to and let down once again, in relation to Home Rule by the British. Who also refused us the right to speak at Versailles when WW1 was meant to be about self determination for small nations.

In modern history, the Catholic people of NI were treated horribly. No one man, one vote. It was a disgrace and until Bloody Sunday largely unknown to the rest of the world. The civil rights movement world wide was reflected in the north and initially the IRA was resurrected to protect the people.

Then a horrible war of attrition by both sides broke out and it had less to do with protecting and more to do with power, blood lust and hatred on both sides. They are the terrorists.

Those of you equating the great men and women who risked their lives, so that you could be free should be ashamed of yourselves. Leave, go else where because this country will only get back on her feet with people of heart and loyalty, willing to work and sacrifice not ill educated, apologists. Whatever the hell happens to this country I'm Irish and damned proud to be so.

Rarely does barbiegirl get angry but hell some of the posts here, on both sides are disgusting.

Actually they didn't. The majority of people voted for unionist or home rule parties. 47% voted for Sinn Fein, but Sinn Fein won the majority of seats thanks to what Nodin has called a ludicrous electoral system.

Happyman42 · 25-02-2013 11:03PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Good Republicans like Slab Murphy?

Do we want to have a discussion about how the British army gets armed and what goes on in the arms world? Do we? All legal and above board stuff eh? Good man Fred, always with the unthought out whataboutery.:rolleyes:

Yamanoto · 25-02-2013 11:23PM

jugger0 wrote: »

Thats isnt a lie

Merely saying something is so does not make it so.

If you believe a majority of Unionists abhor 'anything Irish and Catholic', you're gonna have to expound as to how it is you've come by that conclusion. Proof would help, but I believe you'll struggle to find it.

Without it, it just becomes all the more apparent that you're talking a great deal of nonsense.

barbiegirl · 25-02-2013 11:25PM

I see no hypocrisy in my stance. Those who fought in the War of Independence did so having secured electoral support. People today still call our PR system mad so for it be be called such at the time is of no consequence. The British Parliament had made it clear, as they were reliant on Unionists for power, that Home Rule would never happen. It was a carrot used to keep us quiet but never intended to be enacted. Over the course of hundreds of years we as a nation, (Protestant and Catholic) made it clear that we were not British. We have our own Irish identity and it is this that the heroes of the War of Independence and those wars before, fought for. For the right of you and I to say we are Irish, not British.

I will always refuse to equate those who fought up North in the 70's, 80's and 90's with those who fought and should be honoured for their sacrifices in the War of Independence.

Those who fought up the north on both sides and the politicians on both sides have blood on their hands. As does any party after such a terrible campaign. You can say should Sinn Fein be in power up north but by the same token should the Unionists. If not them who? Who is innocent up there, not the Irish or British government. Should be just let anarchy rule? Or let politics up there get beyond civil war politics as we now have, which takes time.

Sinn Fein down here need to mature into a party who are about more than one thing before they can become a serious contender. Yes they have pockets of support but when it comes to ticks in boxes people want sound economic policy, education and health. Not more united Ireland politics and ultra left wing policies that show no firm grasp of the reality of running a country with a budget . Nobody should discount Sinn Fein as if we expect those up North to talk to one another and move on, is it not hypocritical of us to then refuse to move on and look at them as a just another political party? Or do we consider ourselves better than our Northern brethren?

guinnessdrinker · 25-02-2013 11:36PM

I must say I have some difficulty in differentiating between the IRA of say, 1920 with the IRA of 1970. Maybe you should ask someone from a Unionist background if they can tell the difference and take it from there.

But back on topic, I am all for an extra public holiday.

Fratton Fred · 25-02-2013 11:39PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Do we want to have a discussion about how the British army gets armed and what goes on in the arms world? Do we? All legal and above board stuff eh? Good man Fred, always with the unthought out whataboutery.:rolleyes:

you and the other provo aologists are the only ones engaging in whataboutery here.

you ask a question, where did the money come from. I answered.

you want a day commemorating Slab Murphy then fine, personally i think there are a lo more deserving people, but hey, it's your country.

Dyr · 25-02-2013 11:42PM

gallag wrote: »

Must not have been paying them enough. I bought plenty of weed out of both Republican and loyalist areas, no sides hands are clean when talking about drug money and if you genuinely believe otherwise you are just nieve.

How much heroin were you scoring off the provos?

This sure ain't shankill toto

Dyr · 25-02-2013 11:44PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

but hey, it's your country.

Some people do seem to forget that from time to time.

GRMA · 25-02-2013 11:45PM

barbiegirl wrote: »

I see no hypocrisy in my stance. Those who fought in the War of Independence did so having secured electoral support. People today still call our PR system mad so for it be be called such at the time is of no consequence. The British Parliament had made it clear, as they were reliant on Unionists for power, that Home Rule would never happen. It was a carrot used to keep us quiet but never intended to be enacted. Over the course of hundreds of years we as a nation, (Protestant and Catholic) made it clear that we were not British. We have our own Irish identity and it is this that the heroes of the War of Independence and those wars before, fought for. For the right of you and I to say we are Irish, not British.

I will always refuse to equate those who fought up North in the 70's, 80's and 90's with those who fought and should be honoured for their sacrifices in the War of Independence.

Those who fought up the north on both sides and the politicians on both sides have blood on their hands. As does any party after such a terrible campaign. You can say should Sinn Fein be in power up north but by the same token should the Unionists. If not them who? Who is innocent up there, not the Irish or British government. Should be just let anarchy rule? Or let politics up there get beyond civil war politics as we now have, which takes time.

Sinn Fein down here need to mature into a party who are about more than one thing before they can become a serious contender. Yes they have pockets of support but when it comes to ticks in boxes people want sound economic policy, education and health. Not more united Ireland politics and ultra left wing policies that show no firm grasp of the reality of running a country with a budget . Nobody should discount Sinn Fein as if we expect those up North to talk to one another and move on, is it not hypocritical of us to then refuse to move on and look at them as a just another political party? Or do we consider ourselves better than our Northern brethren?

You reaise that the vast majority of the men who did the actual fighting rejected the treaty? Many of the people still around supported the provos and it was a defining moment in the republican split when a few elderly 1916 veterans walked out with the provisionals

Happyman42 · 25-02-2013 11:47PM

barbiegirl wrote: »

I see no hypocrisy in my stance. Those who fought in the War of Independence did so having secured electoral support.

What do you think people who voted for and supported SF in the north over the years supported? The Teletubbies?
It is a hypocritical stance to deny what was achieved for you to others. Both used the same means...violence and force.

Happyman42 · 25-02-2013 11:52PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you ask a question, where did the money come from. I answered.

And my answer was that the arms business is filled with very unsavory and nasty people and skullduggery that would make Slab wince.
Do you think of that when you are proudly wearing your poppy.
War is a nasty business everywhere.

Nodin · 25-02-2013 11:56PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you and the other provo aologists are the only ones engaging in whataboutery here.
.......

Steady on there Fred - I've kept apologising to a minimum.

SparkySpitfire · 26-02-2013 12:15AM

I read up to page 12 of 36, so sorry if what I'm saying has been said...

Why does it have to matter about a united ireland? why does there need to be political party bashing (one way or the other)?

Can we not just have a public celebration of being our own nation? Why are people so hateful of that idea when so many other countries celebrate the same thing?

I think it would be a great thing, and dare I say, raise national pride. People seem to have an issue when it comes to being proud of being Irish. They want it all swept under the carpet. Well you know what? If it annoys you so much you can leave.

I don't care what political party put the motion forward, I would like to see it happen.

St. Patricks day is a joke, plus it's celebrated world-wide. Independence days are generally only celebrated in their relevant countries so there would be a difference.

OldIrishWulf · 26-02-2013 01:23AM

It should be called Green Orange Day .

Celebrate all things green and all things orange .

No religion and no triumphalism .

In Exile · 26-02-2013 01:28AM

OldIrishWulf wrote: »

And i see your one of the fookers who chose to fly off to the other side of the planet to work down some hole in the ground . Good luck with that .

Ah yes, the argument of the imbecile. Ignore the whole argument and accuse the other of something completely off topic.

OldIrishWulf · 26-02-2013 01:34AM

In Exile wrote: »

Ah yes, the argument of the imbecile. Ignore the whole argument and accuse the other of something completely off topic.

What ?

What argument ?

Tool .

0ph0rce0 · 26-02-2013 01:38AM

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

I read up to page 12 of 36, so sorry if what I'm saying has been said...

Why does it have to matter about a united ireland? why does there need to be political party bashing (one way or the other)?

Can we not just have a public celebration of being our own nation? Why are people so hateful of that idea when so many other countries celebrate the same thing?

I think it would be a great thing, and dare I say, raise national pride. People seem to have an issue when it comes to being proud of being Irish. They want it all swept under the carpet. Well you know what? If it annoys you so much you can leave.

I don't care what political party put the motion forward, I would like to see it happen.

St. Patricks day is a joke, plus it's celebrated world-wide. Independence days are generally only celebrated in their relevant countries so there would be a difference.

In an ideal world that's what we should have, but going by this thread it will never be celebrated as the Irish people just seem to belittle their own people.

TheLastMohican · 26-02-2013 03:23AM

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

In an ideal world that's what we should have, but going by this thread it will never be celebrated as the Irish people just seem to belittle their own people.

Didn't realise that Fratton Fred was one of us?

Fratton Fred · 26-02-2013 08:32AM

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

In an ideal world that's what we should have, but going by this thread it will never be celebrated as the Irish people just seem to belittle their own people.

Sorry, I've read all of this thread and I cant see anyone being belittled.

I can see scores of people rejecting the idea of a day to legitimise the PIRA campaign and I can see plenty of pro PIRA posters throwing their toys out of their prams, but no one is being belittled.

Thomas_I · 26-02-2013 08:47AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sorry, I've read all of this thread and I cant see anyone being belittled.

I can see scores of people rejecting the idea of a day to legitimise the PIRA campaign and I can see plenty of pro PIRA posters throwing their toys out of their prams, but no one is being belittled.

Yeah, the PIRA thing. It bares the way to a common national Irish bank holiday. I suggest to replace the 24th April by the 18th April, the day when the Republic of Ireland Act came into force in 1949. No IRA link to that day, just legislation, seems to be more neutral, refers to the existing Republic of Ireland and is non-sectarian. As this bank holiday would hardly be adopted in NI (except the NI Assembly would adopit it), it would have no reference to Ni.

So one can celebrate the own state and is left whether he likes to commemorate and thank the Volunteers of 1916, the IRA of 1919 to 1921, the Free State Army in 1922 to 1923, De Valera, Collins, Cosgrave, Lemass, Haughy and all the others up to the present Taoiseach. So "happy Republic Day".

Could you live with that, or do you think that 24 hours in a year make such big difference in the economy?

On a short notice, the 18th April hasn´t anything to do with SF either! I think that´s acceptable.:)

Fratton Fred · 26-02-2013 09:02AM

An independence day is a good idea, for the exact reasons you state. I do think that from a practical point of view, April is the wrong time though.

Maybe 6th December when the original treaty was signed?

gurramok · 26-02-2013 09:06AM

gallag wrote: »

Have you ever been in my country? It is safe and other than a few bigots (like you) on either side everyone gets on fine,...The older generation will take their hate to the grave leaving our generation to decide if we want to dwell on their hardships and keep the bigotry alive (like you) or move on.

Funny post. Have you seen the amount of young people participating in those loyalist flag protests? What that says is that there is a sizeable number of your community who hate the other side in order to try to keep their superiority intact.

Thomas_I · 26-02-2013 09:07AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

An independence day is a good idea, for the exact reasons you state. I do think that from a practical point of view, April is the wrong time though.

6th December isn´t even better, so I don´t know about a more fitting day for such a national holiday in the Summer time. You can´t have the 12th July (for instance). Not in the RoI and there has to be some relation to the Republic for such a named bank holiday.

Thomas_I · 26-02-2013 09:33AM

barbiegirl wrote: »

... The British Parliament had made it clear, as they were reliant on Unionists for power, that Home Rule would never happen. ...

This can be misunderstood in some way. The Unionists were reliant on the British to be in power and it was the Unionists which opposed Home Rule. Without the Unionists, the British might have dropped the whole thing in that way as to grant Home Rule for Ireland and get rid of the Irish question. For British domestic and foreign affairs, the Unionists themselves were irrelevant for Britain. In case Home Rule had come into force, the British had made some arrangements to keep their interests safeguarded like they did with Canada, South Africa and Australia, and these countries already had Dominion status in 1914.

Sinn Féin,s "Republic Day".

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