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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • #1982
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭Good loser


    murphaph wrote: »
    Ah I don't believe that there aren't some skins in the PS that give more than the minimum, but these folks need to stand up now and be counted and distance themselves from the dead wood, of which I do believe there is proportionally more of in the public sector than the private, purely because it is much more difficult to actually punish someone who is not performing in the PS.

    Remember some years ago when I was in the service and teams of 5/6 were being formed. There was consternation and a revolt - after the announcement - when it turned out one of the teams had only got 'one worker'. Hasty adjustments ensured that team got two.


  • #1983
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Rightwing wrote: »
    A work to rule would be laughable. That'll cause no inconvience.

    Is FF staying silent on this CP 2 talks ?
    murphaph wrote: »
    A long protracted work to rule could be the breaking of the unions as public sentiment turns against their members.

    Let me see, a work-to-rule by customs officers at the airport stopping every passenger and searching their bags would delay everyone coming home from Berlin and other parts of Europe by hours, that is after they have queued at passport control while the Gardai meticulously check their passports.

    Then there is the scenario where the teachers opt out of voluntary supervision and substitution and school management have to close schools on health and safety grounds. Would mean lots of posters here would have more time to post rubbish about the public sector.


  • #1984
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,735 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    murphaph wrote: »
    A long protracted work to rule could be the breaking of the unions as public sentiment turns against their members.

    This is really silly.
    Public sentiment does not feed kids or pay bills.
    Also your comments against Unions are over the top. If it were not for the Unions the rights you enjoy today would not be there. Read your history.


  • #1985
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Godge wrote: »
    Let me see, a work-to-rule by customs officers at the airport stopping every passenger and searching their bags would delay everyone coming home from Berlin and other parts of Europe by hours, that is after they have queued at passport control while the Gardai meticulously check their passports..
    Do you think the public would just stand there and let a handful of Guards and customs prevent them from just leaving the airport en-masse through any available fire exit. There would be chaos, but the public would not forget what had been done to them.

    I am sure a work to rule could cause hassle for people, but I'm equally certain that large scale work to rules will kill the public sector unions stone dead or severely neuter them.


  • #1986
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    tayto lover wrote: »
    This is really silly.
    Public sentiment does not feed kids or pay bills.
    Also your comments against Unions are over the top. If it were not for the Unions the rights you enjoy today would not be there. Read your history.
    The unions in Ireland are still in 1913 lockout mode. That's the problem....no concept of the modern workplace. I DO appreciate what union men did in those days...but I am sensible enough to be able to differentiate between a union fighting unfairness and a union holding a county to ransom. Unions in Ireland in 2013 don't fight the hard battles...only the easy wins.


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  • #1987
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    murphaph wrote: »
    Do you think the public would just stand there and let a handful of Guards and customs prevent them from just leaving the airport en-masse through any available fire exit. There would be chaos, but the public would not forget what had been done to them.

    I am sure a work to rule could cause hassle for people, but I'm equally certain that large scale work to rules will kill the public sector unions stone dead or severely neuter them.

    Well said. The IMO and INMO have walked out.

    The Govt should bring in some more Indian doctors on the cheap.


  • #1988
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,735 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    murphaph wrote: »
    The unions in Ireland are still in 1913 lockout mode. That's the problem....no concept of the modern workplace. I DO appreciate what union men did in those days...but I am sensible enough to be able to differentiate between a union fighting unfairness and a union holding a county to ransom. Unions in Ireland in 2013 don't fight the hard battles...only the easy wins.

    What hard battles would you have them fight? I'd like to know.


  • #1989
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,735 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    murphaph wrote: »
    Do you think the public would just stand there and let a handful of Guards and customs prevent them from just leaving the airport en-masse through any available fire exit. There would be chaos, but the public would not forget what had been done to them.

    I am sure a work to rule could cause hassle for people, but I'm equally certain that large scale work to rules will kill the public sector unions stone dead or severely neuter them.

    Ha ha. The public are very much behind the Public Sector and in particular the Frontline Alliance. They don't want their junior doctor to have been working for over 30 hours on end before making a wrong diagnosis on their case.
    They also appreciate the work done by the nurses, firemen, garda etc. If there was a Referendum on cutting their wages tomorrow there would be a massive vote in leaving them alone. I have no doubt about that at all.
    It is only the bigots and jealous little people with grudge mindsets who would vote for them to be cut. No doubt about that at all.


  • #1990
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Ha ha. The public are very much behind the Public Sector and in particular the Frontline Alliance. They don't want their junior doctor to have been working for over 30 hours on end before making a wrong diagnosis on their case.
    They also appreciate the work done by the nurses, firemen, garda etc. If there was a Referendum on cutting their wages tomorrow there would be a massive vote in leaving them alone. I have no doubt about that at all.
    It is only the bigots and jealous little people with grudge mindsets who would vote for them to be cut. No doubt about that at all.

    I disagree with that bit, but agree with the rest of it.

    The people who are calling for cuts, are intelligent, informed posters. No one wants to see the cuts, but we know they are needed. Badly needed. That's the sad reality of the situation this bankrupt nation faces.


  • #1991
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    I think loads of posters here are not listening to there unions SIPTU/IMPACT know it is the only show in town. Yes Jack O'Connor stated if there was no deal that there would be industrial action. But he also said that it was better for the unions to try to do a deal than for the government to impose one. IMPACT has stated the same and Liam Doran of the INO knows that he is better off inside the tent. The INTO is the same.

    Poster talking about work to rules or steping back to work practices that were in place 10 years ago is a non runner. Trying to use the public as hostages so as to hold on to unsustainable wages is not a runner.

    This is only the first step in a number of things the government need to do. Social welfare has to be tackled as do PS pension of retired PS. These have remained uneffected by the downturn. Most PS that have retired are on pensions that are 10-20% than they are compared to present PS wages. It also need to tackle wages in semi-state bodies that have not been touched since the downturn. Some of these are completely excessive


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  • #1992
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,735 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    I think loads of posters here are not listening to there unions SIPTU/IMPACT know it is the only show in town. Yes Jack O'Connor stated if there was no deal that there would be industrial action. But he also said that it was better for the unions to try to do a deal than for the government to impose one. IMPACT has stated the same and Liam Doran of the INO knows that he is better off inside the tent. The INTO is the same.

    Poster talking about work to rules or steping back to work practices that were in place 10 years ago is a non runner. Trying to use the public as hostages so as to hold on to unsustainable wages is not a runner.

    This is only the first step in a number of things the government need to do. Social welfare has to be tackled as do PS pension of retired PS. These have remained uneffected by the downturn. Most PS that have retired are on pensions that are 10-20% than they are compared to present PS wages. It also need to tackle wages in semi-state bodies that have not been touched since the downturn. Some of these are completely excessive

    Are you naive enough to believe that after all that the Private Sector will be left alone. That the bosses will not then say "but the Public Sector have had cuts, we have to do the same". There are profits to be made.


  • #1993
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,735 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    The I.N.O. and the I.M.O. have walked out of the talks and two more unions are about to leave.
    Looks like it's on. Fair play to them.


  • #1994
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,030 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    murphaph wrote: »
    Do you think the public would just stand there and let a handful of Guards and customs prevent them from just leaving the airport en-masse through any available fire exit. There would be chaos, but the public would not forget what had been done to them.

    It happened back in early 2009 for about 8 weeks in Dublin Airport, guards (being threatened with changing conditions to airport working) meticulously checked and double checked every passport slowing the exit process to a standstill. FWIW people didn't break through the fire exits.
    This was my OP on it in another forum.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58443243
    AJ wrote:
    Shambolic stuff last night.

    Got off my plane at 22.50 to be faced with a queue of maybe 800 people in a long corridor all waiting to get through the Garda immigration control area.

    It took 55 minutes from getting off the plane to actually get out of the airport (that with only hand luggage).
    Thankfully it was a short flight - god bless older people, those with kids and those getting off a 10 hour flight as it must be an impossible ordeal.
    I've travelled to about 40 countries in my time and never experienced anything like it.

    Complained to a DAA guy and got a shrugged shoulder and a 'blame the gardai' comment.

    Just a warning for anyone arranging pickups from the airport.


  • #1995
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I disagree with that bit, but agree with the rest of it.

    The people who are calling for cuts, are intelligent, informed posters. No one wants to see the cuts, but we know they are needed. Badly needed. That's the sad reality of the situation this bankrupt nation faces.

    The country is not bankrupt. The country is in debt. There is a major difference. There is plenty of money in the country. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. The governments goal should be to make sure that money is being efficiently and properly spent. They are not doing this and so they look for cuts from easy targets.

    You keep saying that the PS is highly paid. Can you post one single comparison between a job here and somewhere else in the EU that shows this? The PS isn't highly paid. It is badly run and top heavy.

    As to the claim that a work to rule will only accomplish a bad reaction from the public, it's too late for that claim. Public sector workers, particularly those in the emergency services are feeling targeted and unappreciated. All you have to do is look at the comments in this forum to see why. You also have to remember that along with their families they make up a very large proportion of the voting public as well.


  • #1996
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I disagree with that bit, but agree with the rest of it.

    The people who are calling for cuts, are intelligent, informed posters. No one wants to see the cuts, but we know they are needed. Badly needed. That's the sad reality of the situation this bankrupt nation faces.

    I'm sorry, but this coming from a poster that ducks and dives from real questions, and requests to back up posts. We are still waiting on your plans to save 1bn from the LA budget as you posted about on many a time without once posting a fact or real figure.

    Sorry if I consider your post laughable and deluded.


  • #1997
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    tayto lover wrote: »
    What hard battles would you have them fight? I'd like to know.
    Hard battles are ones in private companies that are not beholden to Ireland and can basically leave, so unions don't go bothering with them as they know they can't hold these companies to ransom,...so they focus on the public sector where they believe they can squeeze the testicles of the Irish people through the government.


  • #1998
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,735 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    murphaph wrote: »
    Hard battles are ones in private companies that are not beholden to Ireland and can basically leave, so unions don't go bothering with them as they know they can't hold these companies to ransom,...so they focus on the public sector where they believe they can squeeze the testicles of the Irish people through the government.

    Could you be a bit more specific please?


  • #1999
    gerrybbadd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,301 ✭✭✭✭gerrybbadd


    RTE are reporting the CPSU amd UNITE have walked out as well.


  • #2000
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭doc_17


    There really didn't seem to be any negotiations anyway if the unions are to believed so they're as well out


  • #2001
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    doc_17 wrote: »
    There really didn't seem to be any negotiations anyway if the unions are to believed so they're as well out

    The government had an non-negotiable figure for wage cuts and any other suggestions put to them, such as the career breaks, were being considered as seperate savings.


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  • #2002
    channelsurfer2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    Without coming down on either side its a hard one to call. The unions know that they havent a hope in hell of getting this through their members its like turkeys voting for Christmas, and they also know despite what JOC of Siptu might imply that there is feck all support for a widespread strike outside of the civil service.
    While Siptu and Impact and the PSEU stay and get royally flogged by the Government, the others who walked out can bluster and take a stand that will ultimately fail in my opinion.
    There will be only one winner in the end... the Government. From what I gather they are not prepared to back down on anything and the LRC are even finding it hard to get them to compromise, which all negotiations need to have any successful outcome.


  • #2003
    BaronVon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    SB2013 wrote: »
    The government had an non-negotiable figure for wage cuts and any other suggestions put to them, such as the career breaks, were being considered as seperate savings.

    The "negotiations" seemed symbolic from the start, nothing was ever going to be agreed. Looks like the government will be legislating for the cuts now. This should put extreme pressure on the Labour backbenchers.

    Labour could be heading in the same direction as the Greens and the PD's before them......


  • #2004
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,735 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    channelsurfer2 wrote: »
    Without coming down on either side its a hard one to call. The unions know that they havent a hope in hell of getting this through their members its like turkeys voting for Christmas, and they also know despite what JOC of Siptu might imply that there is feck all support for a widespread strike outside of the civil service.
    While Siptu and Impact and the PSEU stay and get royally flogged by the Government, the others who walked out can bluster and take a stand that will ultimately fail in my opinion.
    There will be only one winner in the end... the Government.

    I see it differently.
    The Govt are hoping that because of the state of the country's debts that the Unions will not strike.
    They do not understand the level of anger of the ordinary people of Ireland who are fed up to the teeth of cuts and taxes while profits soar elsewhere.
    I can see the Govt pulling in their horns fairly lively when the talks breakdown and nurses, garda, prison officers etc don't turn up for work.


  • #2005
    RGS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 747 ✭✭✭RGS


    The big problem is that the so called government reform agenda in the HSE is dead in the water. The nurses and the NCHD'S are out of the talks and if the government breech the terms of Croke Park 1, which runs to 2014, then serious issues will follow.

    The goodwill from doctors and nurses to the HSE will disappear, work to rule will be the norm.

    This is not a good situation. As usual the government should have led and stated that from March 1 all TD and ministers salaries would be pegged back to UK levels, showing leadership instead we get Leo the Lip today, as reported on breaking news, claiming politicians have taken more than their fair share of cuts. Not a clever statement by Leo when talks on cutting the pay of PS workers were ongoing.


  • #2006
    BaronVon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I see it differently.
    The Govt are hoping that because of the state of the country's debts that the Unions will not strike.
    They do not understand the level of anger of the ordinary people of Ireland who are fed up to the teeth of cuts and taxes while profits soar elsewhere.
    I can see the Govt pulling in their horns fairly lively when the talks breakdown and nurses, garda, prison officers etc don't turn up for work.

    As a nation, considering the austerity that has been imposed on us, there has been very little reaction to it. It's probably the Irish way, barstool and boards rants, and very little else.

    Even after CP1, there was very little industrial action. Maybe that's what the Govt and thinking will happen again.

    But I agree with you, from what I can see, everyone's done their part at this stage, suffered 5 years of recession and austerity. There is anger out there, and hopefully this time, people might vent it properly, like the do in other countries!


  • #2007
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    gerrybbadd wrote: »
    RTE are reporting the CPSU amd UNITE have walked out as well.

    Strange and promising too that the rte reporters are saying that what the government want is unpalatable and unjust.


  • #2008
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I see it differently.
    The Govt are hoping that because of the state of the country's debts that the Unions will not strike.
    They do not understand the level of anger of the ordinary people of Ireland who are fed up to the teeth of cuts and taxes while profits soar elsewhere.
    I can see the Govt pulling in their horns fairly lively when the talks breakdown and nurses, garda, prison officers etc don't turn up for work.
    These people have bills and mortgages to pay at the end of the month as well. Not turning up for work will not be an option for many.

    Where are the soaring profits by the way?


  • #2009
    oscar_statue
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 17 ✭oscar_statue


    kceire wrote: »
    Strange and promising too that the rte reporters are saying that what the government want is unpalatable and unjust.


    how is that strange ?


  • #2010
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Ha ha. The public are very much behind the Public Sector and in particular the Frontline Alliance. They don't want their junior doctor to have been working for over 30 hours on end before making a wrong diagnosis on their case.
    They also appreciate the work done by the nurses, firemen, garda etc. If there was a Referendum on cutting their wages tomorrow there would be a massive vote in leaving them alone. I have no doubt about that at all.
    It is only the bigots and jealous little people with grudge mindsets who would vote for them to be cut. No doubt about that at all.



    lol, have you taken a poll of everyone to arrive at this conclusion?


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  • #2011
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    murphaph wrote: »
    These people have bills and mortgages to pay at the end of the month as well. Not turning up for work will not be an option for many.

    Where are the soaring profits by the way?

    Exactly.

    A big problem here is the unions bullied the last government into submission, now they think they can do the same. For everyones sake, let's hope common sense prevails and they reach a sensible agreement.


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