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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • #1952
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,869 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The Croke Park agreement seems to be a really crude instrument. In effect the government are trying to draft a "one size fits all" agreement that will affect an extremely varied group of people. Where else would you get hospital consultants, street cleaners, teachers, civil servants of all different ages and levels and try and cover them all in one package?


  • #1953
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Brussels Sprout wrote: »
    The Croke Park agreement seems to be a really crude instrument. In effect the government are trying to draft a "one size fits all" agreement that will affect an extremely varied group of people. Where else would you get hospital consultants, street cleaners, teachers, civil servants of all different ages and levels and try and cover them all in one package?
    The staff bring it upon themselves. They join outdated unions, then stick together like treacle come hell or high water. The staff themselves must opt out of this model of collective bargaining if they want to be treated as individuals with individual skill sets to bring to the table.

    Staff can't have it both ways...either collective bargaining (blunt instrument) or individual merit can decide pay and conditions. I prefer the latter as you can reward good performers and leave bad ones behind, but it is not the model favoured by enough of the employees apparently.


  • #1954
    fall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    I would love the government to commission a study which aimed to quantify the work done by the public sector. There is so much done done through good will that keeps this country going. This is where the anger comes from. If it was documented they could then set up the targets necessary to receive increments and the majority of public sector workers would get their increment. They would also have the evidence to deal with inefficient workers.
    Also the amount of additional work that public sector workers have taken on has to be acknowledged. There has been an embargo and a lot of retirements and the public sector has taken on the additional work in spite of a much reduced work force.


  • #1955
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    murphaph wrote: »
    but it is not the model favoured by enough of the employees apparently.

    Have you carried out a survey or at least have some proof of this claim?


  • #1956
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    In a statement this morning Siptu president Jack O’Connor said in the absence of a reasonable outcome “we will actually go to war”.

    “We are prepared for it. It will involve protracted strikes and all that goes with them. While we may not win, the Government will not win either.”

    __

    That's why this country is bust. An attitude like that.


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  • #1957
    deise blue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 666 ✭✭✭deise blue


    Rightwing wrote: »
    In a statement this morning Siptu president Jack O’Connor said in the absence of a reasonable outcome “we will actually go to war”.

    “We are prepared for it. It will involve protracted strikes and all that goes with them. While we may not win, the Government will not win either.”

    __

    That's why this country is bust. An attitude like that.

    A bit late in the day but welcome nonetheless !


  • #1958
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    deise blue wrote: »
    A bit late in the day but welcome nonetheless !

    Mr O Connor won't 'actually' be going to 'war' himself though :)


  • #1959
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,869 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    If PS workers go on strike do they get docked pay, expenses and benefits for the hours that they are not at work?


  • #1960
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Brussels Sprout wrote: »
    If PS workers go on strike do they get docked pay, expenses and benefits for the hours that they are not at work?

    They lose. That's why they'll lose.


  • #1961
    deise blue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 666 ✭✭✭deise blue


    Brussels Sprout wrote: »
    If PS workers go on strike do they get docked pay, expenses and benefits for the hours that they are not at work?

    If the industrial action takes the form of a work to rule then core pay remains untouched .


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  • #1962
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    fall wrote: »
    This is the problem for me. There are people in the public sector who should be fired and then there are those who do a brilliant job and often go over and above what they have to do. Croke park should have been about getting rid of the people who I believe steal a living. It has done nothing to address this problem and just targets everyone in the PS. So the people that really work hard feel hard done by.

    And how will they feel if their increments are frozen while some dosser on the top of their scale is paid more than them. I don't think the government or management are looking at the workplace dynamics at all. Morale will nose-dive and its bad enough already.


  • #1963
    fall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    Rightwing wrote: »
    In a statement this morning Siptu president Jack O’Connor said in the absence of a reasonable outcome “we will actually go to war”.

    “We are prepared for it. It will involve protracted strikes and all that goes with them. While we may not win, the Government will not win either.”

    __

    That's why this country is bust. An attitude like that.
    Disgraceful statement

    That is not why this country is bust. I would love to see the figures on who bought the most property during the boom, public or private sector workers, who changed their car every year etc. you don't hear public sector workers wishing ill on the private sector. We are bust because of mis managed finances and dodgy dealings. Just watch the recent rte documentary on nationwide.
    People who work hard are not the cause of the bust.


  • #1964
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Rightwing wrote: »
    They lose. That's why they'll lose.

    Work to Rule applied strictly by everyone is where the the fight will be centered. So many staff are doing extra work that belonged to retired staff. Staff are covering other peoples work when they are out sick, maternity, annual leave etc. All that is where the damage can be done. If the government want to fight that is. Its their decision.


  • #1965
    fall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    woodoo wrote: »
    And how will they feel if their increments are frozen while some dosser on the top of their scale is paid more than them. I don't think the government or management are looking at the workplace dynamics at all. Morale will nose-dive and its bad enough already.
    I completely agree. This is why every time this happens ( pay cuts etc.) all that is left behind are cynical workers who are sick of being targeted. How do they ever expect to improve productivity when this is how they do things.


  • #1966
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    woodoo wrote: »
    Work to Rule applied strictly by everyone is where the the fight will be centered. So many staff are doing extra work that belonged to retired staff. Staff are covering other peoples work when they are out sick, maternity, annual leave etc. All that is where the damage can be done. If the government want to fight that is. Its their decision.

    +1

    Existing staff are using their own equipment for projects, such as cameras, phones and various other items.

    This goodwill will stop, it's not only he Garda that do goodwill gestures.


  • #1967
    fall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    kceire wrote: »
    +1

    Existing staff are using their own equipment for projects, such as cameras, phones and various other items.

    This goodwill will stop, it's not only he Garda that do goodwill gestures.

    Totally agree and just as an example in the case of teachers, school plays, trips, matches and sport events are all good will. Using own mobile phone and laptops, buying materials etc., meeting parents social workers, in your time, being a class tutor to 30 students for no additional pay with no admin time allocated are also good will. That is the tip of the ice berg. As I said no one has ever quantified the good will so I really think people will be in for a shock if work to rule kicks in.


  • #1968
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    kceire wrote: »
    Have you carried out a survey or at least have some proof of this claim?
    Your* union membership levels and consensus for the collective bargaining process is the proof. If you* didn't want to be represented in this way, you* wouldn't be. Union membership is not compulsory, but most of you* are members and your* unions have your mandate to negotiate on your* behalf.

    (*you plural)


  • #1969
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    murphaph wrote: »
    Your* union membership levels and consensus for the collective bargaining process is the proof. If you* didn't want to be represented in this way, you* wouldn't be. Union membership is not compulsory, but most of you* are members and your* unions have your mandate to negotiate on your* behalf.

    (*you plural)

    I am not in a union.


  • #1970
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    woodoo wrote: »
    Work to Rule applied strictly by everyone is where the the fight will be centered. So many staff are doing extra work that belonged to retired staff. Staff are covering other peoples work when they are out sick, maternity, annual leave etc. All that is where the damage can be done. If the government want to fight that is. Its their decision.

    A work to rule would be laughable. That'll cause no inconvience.

    Is FF staying silent on this CP 2 talks ?


  • #1971
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Rightwing wrote: »
    A work to rule would be laughable. That'll cause no inconvience.

    This comment shows our uneducated views on this matterbin a new light.
    It proves once again, you have no factual data on the subject and are just ranting.


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  • #1972
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    kceire wrote: »
    I am not in a union.
    You plural = you public servants not you personally.

    More of you are in unions than are not (and by a good margin).


  • #1973
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    A long protracted work to rule could be the breaking of the unions as public sentiment turns against their members.


  • #1974
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    murphaph wrote: »
    A long protracted work to rule could be the breaking of the unions as public sentiment turns against their members.

    Where have you been this last 5 years, we are public enemy number one thanks to the propaganda of O'Brien's media outlets. We are the people who have remained 'untouched' and are 'creaming it' with 'gold plated pensions', the 'cossetted public servants' remember.


  • #1975
    Lumbo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    Rightwing wrote: »
    A work to rule would be laughable. That'll cause no inconvience.


    CP1 only happened because of the last work to rule. It's very inconvenient, especially when directed correctly at the ones who ultimately run the show (the politicians).

    I'm not a fan of work to rule as I'm too busy to be dealing with that sort of BS and the work has to be done anyway. I also personally enjoy the extra responsibility and experience I've gained through the work practices that have changed since all the retirements. I've not financially gained from it but it's been good for my personal development. If I was to follow the work to rule properly, I'd basically have to down tools (not literally ;)).


  • #1976
    jacko1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭jacko1


    Just remember - if the govt unilaterally implements a pay cut before the end of the year - it will be in breach of CP I

    As a teacher, I and my colleagues will immediately revert to pre croke park working hours and practices


  • #1977
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Rightwing wrote: »
    A work to rule would be laughable. That'll cause no inconvience.

    Is FF staying silent on this CP 2 talks ?

    They already work to rule.


  • #1978
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭Good loser


    woodoo wrote: »
    Where have you been this last 5 years, we are public enemy number one thanks to the propaganda of O'Brien's media outlets. We are the people who have remained 'untouched' and are 'creaming it' with 'gold plated pensions', the 'cossetted public servants' remember.

    The 'people' didn't need any prompting to come to these broad conclusions as the facts are there.

    The deficit in the Govt budget is the key. Having scrounged here, there and everywhere for tax money and spending cuts the options for the Govt (against their wishes) have narrowed to trimming public pay etc.

    Our deficit problem will not (in the abscence of growth) and cannot be solved without taking at least €1bn from PS pay. I wonder will it be enough?

    Amazing how people excoriate FF for messing up the economy and yet when it comes to Public Service pay and conditions the beneficiaries consider FF got things spot on. The truth is they didn't - they made a mess of everything.


  • #1979
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Good loser wrote: »
    The 'people' didn't need any prompting to come to these broad conclusions as the facts are there.

    The deficit in the Govt budget is the key. Having scrounged here, there and everywhere for tax money and spending cuts the options for the Govt (against their wishes) have narrowed to trimming public pay etc.

    Our deficit problem will not (in the abscence of growth) and cannot be solved without taking at least €1bn from PS pay. I wonder will it be enough?

    Amazing how people excoriate FF for messing up the economy and yet when it comes to Public Service pay and conditions the beneficiaries consider FF got things spot on. The truth is they didn't - they made a mess of everything.

    Very good post. A billion is not enough imho....unfortunately.


  • #1980
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Good loser wrote: »
    They already work to rule.
    Ah I don't believe that there aren't some skins in the PS that give more than the minimum, but these folks need to stand up now and be counted and distance themselves from the dead wood, of which I do believe there is proportionally more of in the public sector than the private, purely because it is much more difficult to actually punish someone who is not performing in the PS.


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  • #1981
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    murphaph wrote: »
    Ah I don't believe that there aren't some skins in the PS that give more than the minimum, but these folks need to stand up now and be counted and distance themselves from the dead wood, of which I do believe there is proportionally more of in the public sector than the private, purely because it is much more difficult to actually punish someone who is not performing in the PS.


    What is the incentive to do that anymore?


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