Is multiculturalism wanted??

woodoo · 21-02-2013 10:31PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

So you're complaining about people having better arguments than you? Isn't that usually the point where one is convinced, rather than saying "But, but, but....."?

I do agree with you that time is the only way the truth will be known though.

Its all great in theory but do people really want it... i don't know. We will see.

Herb Powell · 21-02-2013 10:34PM

P_1 wrote: »

To be fair, it is fairly clear at this stage that the current incarnation of multiculturalism is causing more problems than solutions.

Yeah.

It's give and take to be quite honest, and I am a firm believer that most of the problems stem from human tendency to discriminate the incoming.

"Them" vs "us", the "us" being the host nation. If enough of "us" discriminate against "them", then what hope have "they" got of settling in successfully? Not too much. Once it begins, it's very hard to stop.

Herb Powell · 21-02-2013 10:35PM

woodoo wrote: »

Its all great in theory but do people really want it... i don't know. We will see.

All I can answer to that is, I do.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 10:36PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

Yeah.

It's give and take to be quite honest, and I am a firm believer that most of the problems stem from human tendency to discriminate the incoming.

"Them" vs "us", the "us" being the host nation. If enough of "us" discriminate against "them", then what hope have "they" got of settling in successfully? Not too much. Once it begins, it's very hard to stop.

I think one of the problems is that there is too much 'give' being expected of the destination societies and their native populations. This is something that needs to be addressed.

Herb Powell · 21-02-2013 10:43PM

P_1 wrote: »

I think one of the problems is that there is too much 'give' being expected of the destination societies and their native populations. This is something that needs to be addressed.

The problem is how do you change how people behave without being Draconian? Is it a free society if force people to act a certain way (within reason, I am not refering to allowing murder or any of that, more various cultural practices)?

I mean, isn't the problem here really just that in the modern age, and especially post WWII, we have come to the conclusion that expulsion of ethnic populations is immoral and problematic? If it wasn't immoral, then there would be no problem of multiculturalism.

So does this mean that actually we just have to take it as it comes, a price to pay for pursuing that moral standard?

BlatentCheek · 21-02-2013 10:46PM

Was multiculturalism ever a stated policy in Ireland?

I mean when we had the most immigration, say 2000-2008, our governments never seemed to be made up of particularly liberal people.
If multiculturalism was a policy I doubt it was a crucial ideological pillar of the Governments beliefs, it was really just a lazy emulation of what the UK, and to a lesser extent other parts of Europe, were doing at the time because thinking up a real policy to deal with unprecedented immigration would have been too much like hard work.
When you think that government ministers could call Turkish workers kebabs without attracting much real opprobrium, much less criticism from within the government, it makes you wonder if a FF-PD, or even a FF-Green, coalition was really made up of all that many 'lentil eating tree huggers' (or whatever believers in MC are called this week). Personally I've never met a single person in the flesh who believed it was a good idea to cultivate the otherness and difference of immigrants to a country. However I think some of the criticism of MC in Ireland misses the fact that we didn't really have it we just had no real plan for dealing with immigration beyond politicians paying lip service to what was at the time the trendy ideology on the issue

P_1 · 21-02-2013 10:49PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

The problem is how do you change how people behave without being Draconian? Is it a free society if force people to act a certain way (within reason, I am not refering to allowing murder or any of that, more various cultural practices)?

I mean, isn't the problem here really just that in the modern age, and especially post WWII, we have come to the conclusion that expulsion of ethnic populations is immoral and problematic? If it wasn't immoral, then there would be no problem of multiculturalism.

So does this mean that actually we just have to take it as it comes, a price to pay for pursuing that moral standard?

Not necessarily to be honest, I think that asking for a bit more 'give' from the new members of the society could partially solve the problem.

Basically they shouldn't expect a carbon copy of their 'old' society in their 'new' society. They should have the right to practice their lives as they see fit in private and nobody has the right to expect anything else but they should also have the responsibility to attempt to assimilate to the cultural norms of the new society.

Surely that isn't too much to expect?

MaxSteele · 21-02-2013 11:14PM

To be honest I haven't actually seen "cultural diversity" from the many non-nationals who've migrated here since the tiger years.

Ok, bar a few Nigerian owned grocers shoved into some dead end cul de sac or below Moore street and chinese take aways, but what has it really changed or impacted on Ireland positively ? Eastern Europeans (one of our biggest migrant groups) have a fairly similar culture and way of life to us. I can't see Ireland churning out a Chinatown or Marrakesh like Grand Bazaar.

So far, from what I've gathered by the usual staunch supporters on threads like these is "shure throw all the whites, blacks, persians, arabs, turks, Chinese and vietnamese together and we can all be brown and progressive hey".

It's almost like multiculturalism is some fashion trend with a cult status in the hope society will be populated by nothing but Barack Obama or gooback lookalikes from the South Park episode.

Sorry, but I don't see the progression or modern outlook in that. Completely overrated IMO.

Johro · 21-02-2013 11:29PM

Weathering wrote: »

Don't bother then. Who the hell are you to say I'm wrong
You've probably got yourself a Thai bride that's why your taking it so personal

Get out of my face and run along

I'm wrong for saying that if immigrants want to move to Ireland they should assimilate in to Irish society
I've heard it all now, I hear it's nice in la la land

Just seeing this post now. No I'm not taking anything personally, but it really looks like you are. I replied to this crap here:
''No I'm not. Reason being certain groups of immigrants "Muslims" cry racism when they have to live by Western laws.
I'm fed up of all these pussy foot politicians pussy footing about. If I were to kiss my gf in "most" of their countries i'd be put in jail.
AND over here they can cry and do as they want. Rather assimilate in to society or Fck off back home

I'm calling a spade a spade,have a problem go hug a tree or like someone because there a different race even if you hate there personality but it makes you feel great about yourself and enlightened so it's okay

VOMIT''

Well.. I can say 'you're wrong' anytime I like. To anyone. If anyone's getting personal it's you.

Herb Powell · 21-02-2013 11:33PM

P_1 wrote: »

Not necessarily to be honest, I think that asking for a bit more 'give' from the new members of the society could partially solve the problem.

Basically they shouldn't expect a carbon copy of their 'old' society in their 'new' society. They should have the right to practice their lives as they see fit in private and nobody has the right to expect anything else but they should also have the responsibility to attempt to assimilate to the cultural norms of the new society.

Surely that isn't too much to expect?

YEah, but where do you draw the line? By which I mean, what is that 'give' exactly? And how do you enforce it? The only way I can think of is classes for immigrants, or something. Just to educate them on our ways. That requires us to define ourselves very precisely in the first place.

MaxSteele wrote: »

To be honest I haven't actually seen "cultural diversity" from the many non-nationals who've migrated here since the tiger years.

Ok, bar a few Nigerian owned grocers shoved into some dead end cul de sac or below Moore street and chinese take aways, but what has it really changed or impacted on Ireland positively ? Eastern Europeans (one of our biggest migrant groups) have a fairly similar culture and way of life to us. I can't see Ireland churning out a Chinatown or Marrakesh like Grand Bazaar.

So far, from what I've gathered by the usual staunch supporters on threads like these is "shure throw all the whites, blacks, persians, arabs, turks, Chinese and vietnamese together and we can all be brown and progressive hey".

It's almost like multiculturalism is some fashion trend with a cult status in the hope society will be populated by nothing but Barack Obama or gooback lookalikes from the South Park episode.

Sorry, but I don't see the progression or modern outlook in that. Completely overrated IMO.

What has it done negatively, is surely the pertinent question here?

MaxSteele · 21-02-2013 11:45PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

YEah, but where do you draw the line? By which I mean, what is that 'give' exactly? And how do you enforce it? The only way I can think of is classes for immigrants, or something. Just to educate them on our ways. That requires us to define ourselves very precisely in the first place.

What has it done negatively, is surely the pertinent question here?

I haven't a breeze myself.

I just don't get the cliquey defense mechanism that kicks in with certain posters when to their horror .... other people are actually happy with the demographic status quo.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 11:52PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

YEah, but where do you draw the line? By which I mean, what is that 'give' exactly? And how do you enforce it? The only way I can think of is classes for immigrants, or something. Just to educate them on our ways. That requires us to define ourselves very precisely in the first place.

Honestly, I don't know. On one side of the spectrum you have the example of places like Dubai that imprison people for not adapting to the accepted cultural norm, obviously we don't want that. On the other end we have the free for all that seems to be happening in the UK, again that's something we don't want either.

I wonder if incentivising people to assimilate might be an option?

Dwork · 21-02-2013 11:56PM

Multiculturalism?? Head across to a Muslim country, and start demanding "Multiculturalism" as a Christian. See how you get on. Report back, via a dodgy webcam as some "enlightened" lad pulls your head back, the better to run a butchers knife across your infidel jugular. I'll accept ye as soon as ye accept me, my Mohammedan friends. You go first, sure I'm pretty accepting to begin with. I've no desire to "convert" you, you consider converting me to be your duty, that or my demise. I'll pass on multiculturalism, thanks.

Herb Powell · 21-02-2013 11:57PM

MaxSteele wrote: »

I haven't a breeze myself.

I just don't get the cliquey defense mechanism that kicks in with certain posters when to their horror .... other people are actually happy with the demographic status quo.

P_1 wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know. On one side of the spectrum you have the example of places like Dubai that imprison people for not adapting to the accepted cultural norm, obviously we don't want that. On the other end we have the free for all that seems to be happening in the UK, again that's something we don't want either.

I wonder if incentivising people to assimilate might be an option?

It's a really tough one. We know what happens if you fucck it up though.

Herb Powell · 21-02-2013 11:59PM

Dwork wrote: »

Multiculturalism?? Head across to a Muslim country, and start demanding "Multiculturalism" as a Christian. See how you get on. Report back, via a dodgy webcam as some "enlightened" lad pulls your head back, the better to run a butchers knife across your infidel jugular. I'll accept ye as soon as ye accept me, my Mohammedan friends. You go first, sure I'm pretty accepting to begin with. I've no desire to "convert" you, you consider converting me to be your duty, that or my demise. I'll pass on multiculturalism, thanks.

How about we aspire to be the best, rather than being petty about it and wasting time with dicck swinging, no?

P_1 · 22-02-2013 12:01AM

Herb Powell wrote: »

It's a really tough one. We know what happens if you fucck it up though.

What happens? The Holocaust Mk 2 or something? That's a bit of a jump

Nodin · 22-02-2013 12:01AM

Dwork wrote: »

Multiculturalism?? Head across to a Muslim country, and start demanding "Multiculturalism" as a Christian. See how you get on. Report back, via a dodgy webcam as some "enlightened" lad pulls your head back, the better to run a butchers knife across your infidel jugular. I'll accept ye as soon as ye accept me, my Mohammedan friends. You go first, sure I'm pretty accepting to begin with. I've no desire to "convert" you, you consider converting me to be your duty, that or my demise. I'll pass on multiculturalism, thanks.

Yeah, that sums up the canadian experience so well. I hear in london if ye go looking for a kebab its 50/50 whether or not you'll end the night on the skewer.

Johro · 22-02-2013 12:04AM

This thread is going downhill fast. It didn't start off great either.

Herb Powell · 22-02-2013 12:06AM

P_1 wrote: »

What happens? The Holocaust Mk 2 or something? That's a bit of a jump

No, no, no, I meant ghettos, and further isolation between communities. Disillusioned 2nd generation who do not feel like they belong anywhere.

Sorry if that was ambiguous.

Nodin · 22-02-2013 12:06AM

Johro wrote: »

This thread is going downhill fast. It didn't start off great either.

O I don't know. I got called the most amusing insult in some years.

MaxSteele · 22-02-2013 12:07AM

Johro wrote: »

This thread is going downhill fast. It didn't start off great either.

It's a hot topic, it's to be expected almost.

Johro · 22-02-2013 12:08AM

Nodin wrote: »

O I don't know. I got called the most amusing insult in some years.

Give me the post/page number, I'll check it out and report back.

P_1 · 22-02-2013 12:08AM

Herb Powell wrote: »

No, no, no, I meant ghettos, and further isolation between communities. Disillusioned 2nd generation who do not feel like they belong anywhere.

Sorry if that was ambiguous.

No worries, yeah you might have been just a tad vague alright

Isn't that happening to a degree already though? In particular I'm thinking of France.

Having the new arrivals assimilate into the new society should in theory prevent that from happening though.

Herb Powell · 22-02-2013 12:09AM

Johro wrote: »

This thread is going downhill fast. It didn't start off great either.

I think it's getting better tbh.

Nodin · 22-02-2013 12:10AM

Herb Powell wrote: »

No, no, no, I meant ghettos, ..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ChE4c_g4B0

(Don't do drugs kids)

Dwork · 22-02-2013 12:12AM

So, my Religion is to convert all the other Religions to my religion, but ye mugs need to "tolerate" my religion, die infidel, die, sorry, tolerate, Infidel. feck off. My old lad always said the Mohammedans were the biggest threat to western society that existed. I'd no idea what he was on about, tbh, but I do now. We''ll "tolerate" and "multiculturalise" our way into oblivion, IMO. Am I rascist? No. Am I intolerant of other religions? Yes. Why? Because they are intolerant of mine. If you think they either like or want to "integrate" with Christians, you're a fool. And a dangerous fool at that. And if you disagree, best of luck to you.

Johro · 22-02-2013 12:13AM

I blame the parents.

Herb Powell · 22-02-2013 12:14AM

P_1 wrote: »

No worries, yeah you might have been just a tad vague alright

Isn't that happening to a degree already though? In particular I'm thinking of France.

Having the new arrivals assimilate into the new society should in theory prevent that from happening though.

YEah, that's what I mean. That is the example people commonly give when they talk about multiculturalism failing.

This is where my own personal opinion comes in-the only way to make them feel French is to treat them as French. Stop saying you hate them for this or that, or whatever (I have met a good few French people who really are not fond of the Muslims, Arabs, or North Africans. To put it mildly.). Be welcoming, or you cannot expect them to warm to you. Unfortunately this seems to be beyond too many people to make it work.

Nodin · 22-02-2013 12:15AM

Dwork wrote: »

So, my Religion is to convert all the other Religions to my religion, but ye mugs need to "tolerate" my religion, die infidel, die, sorry, tolerate, Infidel. feck off.

Thats a very narky religion ye have there. Have ye offered it tay and a biccie or two?

P_1 · 22-02-2013 12:21AM

Herb Powell wrote: »

YEah, that's what I mean. That is the example people commonly give when they talk about multiculturalism failing.

This is where my own personal opinion comes in-the only way to make them feel French is to treat them as French. Stop saying you hate them for this or that, or whatever (I have met a good few French people who really are not fond of the Muslims, Arabs, or North Africans. To put it mildly.). Be welcoming, or you cannot expect them to warm to you. Unfortunately this seems to be beyond too many people to make it work.

It's a bit of a viscous circle though, I think it's a bit over simplistic to say that "the only way to make them feel French is to treat them as French". Yes the French have a responsibility to make the Arabs and North Africans welcome, similarly the Arabs and North Africans have a responsibility to make the French want to welcome them.

Is multiculturalism wanted??

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