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Is multiculturalism wanted??

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Comments

  • #392
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    P_1 wrote: »
    Yeah I find that that is sometimes the 'easy' way of winning an argument like this.*

    Somebody makes a logical argument as to why they hold a particular point, the other person can't find a logical counter-argument and automatically shouts 'racist' in a bit to shut the other person up.

    * Might be a tad on the over-simplistic side
    or maybe not... ;)

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #393
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    Wibbs wrote: »
    You say this quite a bit WC. Must be great to be surprised by outrage on a near weekly basis. Don't worry this will pass. Hopefully.
    Not so thinly veiled "I'm right on" speech. The same "I have Black friends you know" vibe only from the opposite end of the spectrum.
    Why the nastiness? Why not break down the posters points one by one? Your "I know loads of people from different backgrounds" sounds more like Pokemon collecting, "Gotta catch em all" than an argument, never mind a debate.

    BTW lest you suffer a further paroxysm of outrage, I happen to not agree with AlekSmart's overall points, though I have seen some evidence of the xenophobia that might back up some of his points. After all at least some of that is how ghettos and cultural enclaves build up.

    A surprising unusally churlish response from one whose views I would normally respect, the only nastiness was in the post that I was replying to which inferred that those of us who are believers in Multiculturalism are NIMBY Hypocrites.
    I find your similar inference that I "use" my friendships in order to claim that I am "right on" similarly distastful. As one who has lived and worked abroad (thinly veiled I have travelled a bit) I made a consious decison to live in a more culturally diverse area, in the same way that I have chosen to encourage my children to discover and explore the benifits and indeed sometimes different and unpalatable aspects of differing cultures, I fail to see why I should not defend those decisions when accused of middle class nibyism.
    Rant over.
    :)


  • #394
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • #395
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Cungi wrote: »
    Broadening of the gene pool is a good thing

    The gene pool in my area could do with some chlorine.


  • #396
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Phoenix wrote: »
    Erst kommt das Fressen, dann die Moral - Bertold Brecht
    Is this why certain people react to "multiculturalism" as if it is some sort of perceived threat to livelhood?

    Interesting way of looking at it. I'm sure there's an element of that to it, the whole 'dey terk ar jebs' argument right?


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  • #397
    sock puppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »
    Borough of Barnet.

    Ah right. I actually lived in Islington when I was over there.


  • #398
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    A surprising unusally churlish response from one whose views I would normally respect, the only nastiness was in the post that I was replying to which inferred that those of us who are believers in Multiculturalism are NIMBY Hypocrites.
    In your opinion and you made it about you and what you feel on the subject. I have certainly experienced NIMBY behaviour in previously outwardly liberal people such as Aleksmart described. One example that springs readily was a real treehugger woman I knew, wove her own muesli, tie dyed her hair sort of thing. Often seen on various marches for equality. Really dug the multiculturalism, well it appeared so long as it was restricted to ethnic markets and Ghanian flute music on her CD. She had a particular penchant for Traveling folks rights. That was until a small halting site was up for discussion in her leafy area, at which point her silence was deafening. Not a happy camper was she. She'd not be the only example of that I've encountered. I've also encountered the non hypocrites of course, but I do see some of the points in AS' "nasty" post.
    I find your similar inference that I "use" my friendships in order to claim that I am "right on" similarly distastful. As one who has lived and worked abroad (thinly veiled I have travelled a bit) I made a consious decison to live in a more culturally diverse area, in the same way that I have chosen to encourage my children to discover and explore the benifits and indeed sometimes different and unpalatable aspects of differing cultures, I fail to see why I should not defend those decisions when accused of middle class nibyism.
    Rant over.
    Again you took it personally as applying directly to you and rather than take his points objectively and debate them got offended and brandished your credentials. EDIT actually could you discuss/debate this I posted earlier?

    I think what many of the more hard line "right on" multiculturists miss is that some cultures that become part of a modern, progressive and equal society may not believe in or share the same views of modern, progressive and equal as the main society they find themselves in. Take more traditional cultures as examples. EG Many see sexual equality in very different ways. Ditto for social, religious and political equality. How can this be resolved in the philosophy that says modern, equal and progressive is the yardstick by which we judge our society, if we encourage by cultural relativism another culture who doesn't believe in this in the quest for diversity?

    Phoenix wrote: »
    Erst kommt das Fressen, dann die Moral - Bertold Brecht
    Is this why certain people react to "multiculturalism" as if it is some sort of perceived threat to livelhood?
    That's some of it alright. It's quite a built in thing in humanity, that sense of the other, that sense of xenophobia. It comes in different strengths at different times. It's part and parcel of our history along with cooperation on the other side of the coin. There can even be a sexual/reproductive aspect to it. You'll notice men of different ethnicities are more feared/hated than the women. "'dey terk ar wimmin" may be just as much in play. A sense of invasion another one. A few Black - or White for that matter - faces in a society are seen as novelties, but there comes a tipping point depending on culture where for some numbers start to look like too many and notions of "they're taking over" come along. This is certainly happening in many western cultures at the mo. The feeling of "OK this is enough". Ireland may be more sensitive to that as we have been ethnically very homogenous since pretty much the get go. Even though we've had tooing and froing for many centuries they were people who "looked like us".

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #399
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Cultures change constantly and slowly, the myth that this is some kind of seismic upheaval in a brief period is just that.

    Not what I asked.

    Now for giggles, back up the claim that the impact of foreign culture on london has been constant and slow. It's a city with a long and well documented history, go nuts.


  • #400
    SWL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    Thank you for clarifying a bullshit opinion with a bullshit generalisation. Also good to note that you added, non-ironically the phrase "bleeding heart do-gooders" so we all immediately know your opinion is best off ignored on these matters.


    I think there is a strong element of truth in what he says, a lot of people are strong believers in MC especically those with a vested interest, the negitave fallout from MC of which there are many, is neither acknowleged or sufferred by the same people who benefit from a failed concept of scoiety (see UK, German, Holland, Sweden, etc for examples) the working class areas can deal with the negitives of MC.

    But maybe if you engaged the poster in debate rather than stamping your feet you may get a better standard of discourse rther than the above child like rant of my way is better than yours


  • #401
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    SWL wrote: »
    I think there is a strong element of truth in what he says, a lot of people are strong believers in MC especically those with a vested interest, the negitave fallout from MC of which there are many, is neither acknowleged or sufferred by the same people who benefit from a failed concept of scoiety (see UK, German, Holland, Sweden, etc for examples) the working class areas can deal with the negitives of MC.

    But maybe if you engaged the poster in debate rather than stamping your feet you may get a better standard of discourse rther than the above child like rant of my way is better than yours

    that is a very sweeping statement, would you care to list all these negative fallouts? While you are at it you might provide some evidence that it is "a completley failed concept", and by the way Germany is not a multicultural society.


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  • #402
    SWL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    that is a very sweeping statement, would you care to list all these negative fallouts? While you are at it you might provide some evidence that it is "a completley failed concept", and by the way Germany is not a multicultural society.


    If you refuse to acknowledge the negative effects of MC then I have other things to do with my time than debate with a person who is wearing blinkers.

    Both the PM of the UK and Germany have stated that MC has "utterly failed"

    Given that both countries have decades more experience of MC than Ireland this is a uncomfortable fact or many. The majority of Irish people believe there was and is too much immigiration into Ireland see all opinion polls conducted since 2004

    Angela Merkel stated "The concept that we are now living side by side and are happy about it does not work"

    In my own Country of Sweden it is also a failure, but like you the media refuse to acknowledge this fact.


  • #403
    0066ad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭0066ad


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    that is a very sweeping statement, would you care to list all these negative fallouts? While you are at it you might provide some evidence that it is "a completley failed concept", and by the way Germany is not a multicultural society.


    Anybody can use google to search for negatives of multiculturalism and make
    their own assertion on the matter.

    We can't google your opinion on the two questions asked to you from P 1
    and Wibbs, I'm sure a few posters would like to know your thoughts myself
    included.


  • #404
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    0066ad wrote: »
    Anybody can use google to search for negatives of multiculturalism and make
    their own assertion on the matter.

    In other words you have no proof to back up your assertions , they are just opionions with no basis in verifiable fact.

    We can't google your opinion on the two questions asked to you from P 1
    and Wibbs, I'm sure a few posters would like to know your thoughts myself
    included.

    Nice deflection, what questions have I failed to answer, I cant find them?:confused:


  • #405
    0066ad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭0066ad


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    Nice deflection, what questions have I failed to answer, I cant find them?:confused:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83328739&postcount=361

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83332368&postcount=398

    I don't know how you missed the one Wibbs posted which asked you to
    discuss/debate a post he posted earlier, you even thanked it :confused:


  • #406
    9959
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭9959


    SWL wrote: »
    I think there is a strong element of truth in what he says, a lot of people are strong believers in MC especically those with a vested interest, the negitave fallout from MC of which there are many, is neither acknowleged or sufferred by the same people who benefit from a failed concept of scoiety (see UK, German, Holland, Sweden, etc for examples) the working class areas can deal with the negitives of MC.

    But maybe if you engaged the poster in debate rather than stamping your feet you may get a better standard of discourse rther than the above child like rant of my way is better than yours

    Perhaps you could give us an example of a European Monocultural society where the working-classes go about their daily lives without a care, reaping the rewards, and gorging on the manifold benefits, of this utopian oneness.

    A country where jobs are plentiful, (no foreigners to take them from the natives), a country where crime is low (through lack of ghettoisation of course), a country free of the sexism, weird music, smelly food and downright rudeness of alien peoples, where there's not a sign of a (choose your 'other') church, mosque, synagogue or temple to besmirch the purity of the culturally homogenous skyline, a place where even the doctors speak with local accents and dialects, so not only can they treat people for their ailments, but can also converse idiomatically about the weather.

    Where is this place?....... somewhere over the monochromed rainbow, I suspect.


  • #407
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    People migrate more easily than ever today. Cultures may change.

    Fuccking deal with it and be done.


  • #408
    0066ad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭0066ad


    9959 wrote: »
    Perhaps you could give us an example of a European Monocultural society where the working-classes go about their daily lives without a care, reaping the rewards, and gorging on the manifold benefits, of this utopian oneness.

    A country where jobs are plentiful, (no foreigners to take them from the natives), a country where crime is low (through lack of ghettoisation of course), a country free of the sexism, weird music, smelly food and downright rudeness of alien peoples, where there's not a sign of a (choose your 'other') church, mosque, synagogue or temple to besmirch the purity of the culturally homogenous skyline, a place where even the doctors speak with local accents and dialects, so not only can they treat people for their ailments, but can also converse idiomatically about the weather.

    Where is this place?....... somewhere over the monochromed rainbow, I suspect    .


    Off the top of my head I'm thinking, Japan?


  • #409
    dd972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭dd972


    The multicultual mafia constantly roll out this bullsh!t about there being no such thing as White Britons or English people because the Romans or the Normans went there or because a few thousand French Huguenots went to England in the 1700's.

    If a couple of White Britons leave London for Suffolk or Dorset because they want to be surrounded by a culture and environment they are familiar with it's 'racism', if Sri Lankans, Somalis or Nigerians all want to flock to the same area of London to be surrounded by a culture and environment they are familiar with then it's 'multi-cultural diversity and eclecticism'.

    Billy Bragg was making big noises about the threat of the BNP in his beloved Barking, check out his Wikipedia page to see where he lives.....hmmm.


  • #410
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    dd972 wrote: »
    The multicultual mafia

    Oh fucck, that is awesome, thanks!


  • #411
    9959
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭9959


    0066ad wrote: »
    Off the top of my head I'm thinking, Japan?

    Is Japan a "European Monocultural society"?


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  • #412
    VEN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭VEN


    9959 wrote: »
    Is Japan a "European Monocultural society"?

    Is Europe another planet?


  • #413
    0066ad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭0066ad


    9959 wrote: »
    Is Japan a "European Monocultural society"?


    No but it is mainly a mono cultural society, got a bit carried away there :D


  • #414
    Push Pop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭Push Pop


    dr.bollocko wrote: »

    We're dealing in bullsh[SIZE="2"]i[/SIZE]t anecdotes here rather than reality.

    So long as you're misinformed. And scared.

    Sir Tallaght Ban has now been.... banned.

    When low post count posters show up on hot topics and find their way immediately to AH one gets suspicious rather quickly.

    Watch out for the deleted account re-regers that behave in the same way as above....


  • #415
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    All you liberal lefties with your polished and rehearsed arguments obviously know best. But i'm not so sure you are in step with the bulk of the people out there. Mass immigration and multiculturalism may not be as welcome as you all think. Time will tell.


  • #416
    SWL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    9959 wrote: »
    Perhaps you could give us an example of a European Monocultural society where the working-classes go about their daily lives without a care, reaping the rewards, and gorging on the manifold benefits, of this utopian oneness.

    A country where jobs are plentiful, (no foreigners to take them from the natives), a country where crime is low (through lack of ghettoisation of course), a country free of the sexism, weird music, smelly food and downright rudeness of alien peoples, where there's not a sign of a (choose your 'other') church, mosque, synagogue or temple to besmirch the purity of the culturally homogenous skyline, a place where even the doctors speak with local accents and dialects, so not only can they treat people for their ailments, but can also converse idiomatically about the weather.

    Where is this place?....... somewhere over the monochromed rainbow, I suspect.


    In Europe = Iceland

    Outside Europe = Japan


  • #417
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Slow and steady immigration and assimilation is a better way to progress.


  • #418
    SWL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Herb Powell wrote: »
    People migrate more easily than ever today. Cultures may change.

    Fuccking deal with it and be done.

    There is a difference between people migrating to other countires and MC.


  • #419
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    woodoo wrote: »
    All you liberal lefties with your polished and rehearsed arguments obviously know best. But i'm not so sure you are in step with the bulk of the people out there. Mass immigration and multiculturalism may not be as welcome as you all think. Time will tell.

    So you're complaining about people having better arguments than you? Isn't that usually the point where one is convinced, rather than saying "But, but, but....."?

    I do agree with you that time is the only way the truth will be known though.


  • #420
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    SWL wrote: »
    There is a difference between people migrating to other countires and MC.

    Yeah, I know, and I'm glad you know, but most people I see complaining do not know the difference.


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  • #421
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Herb Powell wrote: »
    Yeah, I know, and I'm glad you know, but most people I see complaining do not know the difference.

    To be fair, it is fairly clear at this stage that the current incarnation of multiculturalism is causing more problems than solutions.


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