2,900 cattle for the first live export vessel destined for Libya

allthedoyles · 20-02-2013 12:56AM

If this trial shipment works out , it will help to secure jobs in Belview Port .

Probably a small cash injection for Waterford itself , with extra jobs in security on the day , plus the lease of a large cattle holding facility near Waterford .

Apart from the Stevedores / ship agents , the biggest winner will be Waterford Port Company , from cargo dues / tonnage dues .

If the cattle boat has'nt been to Ireland / UK in the last 30 days , the Revenue Commissioners would pocket around €2,500 in Light Dues courtesy of the shipowners .

seven_eleven · 20-02-2013 09:28AM

If anybody was listening to Today FM this morning before 8, they had some representative on that was involved with the export of these cows and they also had a member of the group opposing it.

Very good points made on behalf of the exporters.

None of the animals are calves.

The ship and living conditions of the cattle are monitored and have to live up to EU standards as well as having €500,000 spent on improvements to bring the ship up to Irish standards (which is better than what the EU requires).
Ship inspected and approved by several people including the department of agriculture, and some US department.
Animals monitored and cared for by people from the department of agriculture (or something similar, presumably vets too) to ensure that they have sufficient living standards, aren't being overstressed and are treated right. They travel on the ship with them for the whole journey.
In previous times when this trade was operating, it was rare for animals to die on the journey. 100 when leaving Ireland, 100 when arriving in Africa.
That we don't have the right to tell other countries and religion how to slaughter their cows.

The opposing side, those who held a candle vigil last night seemed very ill informed and was repeatedly proved wrong.

They claimed that

The animals were all calves.
The ship living standards were extremely poor.
The journey was too long for them to be stuck in one place.
The sea was too rough.
There was too much secrecy (because they werent allowed on board the ship) and there was something sinister about it.
They're all vegans
They oppose the slaughter of animals and eating of meat whether its here in Ireland, or anywhere else. (dingdingding!) :rolleyes:
They were concerned that animals weren't being slaughtered in a humane, non halal way. (as if its any of their business)

All in all, this trade happened regularly 10+ years. Nobody complained about it then did they? This is a ridiculous non story only being stirred by nutjobs.

Nypd · 20-02-2013 10:39AM

Usual nutters so, why on earth do these people think they have the right to walk onto a ship to have a look around.

Do they have any clue about what they are looking at ?

Have they any clue about health and safety, I reckon they should be boxed and shipped out with the next load of cattle.

mike65 · 20-02-2013 11:32AM

seven_eleven wrote: »

All in all, this trade happened regularly 10+ years. Nobody complained about it then did they?

This is a ridiculous non story only being stirred by nutjobs.

Actually they did, a lot!

Hoffmans · 20-02-2013 12:02PM

hope them libyians dont twig that half them "cows" were actually ponys in disguise....

spankmemunkey · 20-02-2013 12:58PM

This may sound crude but theyre going to be slaughtered and eaten, why dont they take a cow home and keep it till the end of its days!
Its called the food chain, although i do agree to a point with what they say or some of their thinking,

seven_eleven · 20-02-2013 01:12PM

mike65 wrote: »

Actually they did, a lot!

Shhhh! and dont tell them about the few times when cows jumped overboard and swam away down the suir never to be seen again. :pac:

Speak Now · 20-02-2013 01:53PM

seven_eleven wrote: »

Shhhh! and dont tell them about the few times when cows jumped overboard and swam away down the suir never to be seen again. :pac:

And the dish ran away with the spoon!!!

SomeGirl123 · 20-02-2013 04:09PM

I'm shocked at peoples lack of empathy for any living thing. And also everyones lack of respect for differing opinions. My understanding is that open debate is how we progress as humans. but it appears your a 'nutjob' if you stray from the herd here. I'd prefer to be a nutjob who has some compassion and thought about society rather than blindly driven by money.

cbl593h · 20-02-2013 11:03PM

seven_eleven wrote: »

Shhhh! and dont tell them about the few times when cows jumped overboard and swam away down the suir never to be seen again. :pac:

And don't let them watch this film of more of the feckers trying to excape !!!!

Langerland 1975

rasper · 21-02-2013 12:06AM

Wow you re a nutjob if you have concerns for animal welfare now ,

Nypd · 21-02-2013 05:16AM

SomeGirl123 wrote: »

I'm shocked at peoples lack of empathy for any living thing. And also everyones lack of respect for differing opinions. My understanding is that open debate is how we progress as humans. but it appears your a 'nutjob' if you stray from the herd here. I'd prefer to be a nutjob who has some compassion and thought about society rather than blindly driven by money.

Beef is part of the food chain and is reared for a single purpose so I would find it hard to have empathy.
As a poster has pointed out the protesters have virtually none of their facts right and it's laughable that they think they can walk up to a ship and demand to check it out.
With carry one like that its no wonder they pick up labels such as nut jobs.

jonnyfingers · 21-02-2013 09:56AM

Nypd wrote: »

Beef is part of the food chain and is reared for a single purpose so I would find it hard to have empathy.
As a poster has pointed out the protesters have virtually none of their facts right and it's laughable that they think they can walk up to a ship and demand to check it out.
With carry one like that its no wonder they pick up labels such as nut jobs.

With carry on like that I suggest that they're naive in trying to get their point across. However that doesn't make them nut jobs, and it's wrong to label them as such.

I've been vegan for a couple of month now, mainly to test the health benefits rather than being overly appalled by eating animals, but I can completely understand why some people are very concerned with the treatment of animals, especially animals that are, as you pointed out, reared for a single purpose, namely slaughter.

For arguments sake if we started exporting dogs to China or Korea I'm sure a few more people would be against it and they wouldn't be labeled nut jobs.

Still doesn't mean you can have a look around on a private individual or company's ship though. But lets try to treat those who have differing opinions with respect.

Nypd · 21-02-2013 11:25AM

jonnyfingers wrote: »

With carry on like that I suggest that they're naive in trying to get their point across. However that doesn't make them nut jobs, and it's wrong to label them as such.

I've been vegan for a couple of month now, mainly to test the health benefits rather than being overly appalled by eating animals, but I can completely understand why some people are very concerned with the treatment of animals, especially animals that are, as you pointed out, reared for a single purpose, namely slaughter.

For arguments sake if we started exporting dogs to China or Korea I'm sure a few more people would be against it and they wouldn't be labeled nut jobs.

Still doesn't mean you can have a look around on a private individual or company's ship though. But lets try to treat those who have differing opinions with respect.

I don't see how you can use dogs to support the argument, Irish society rears them mainly as domestic pets ( granted some are reared for sport and work).

They are going attract extreme labels when they carry out candle light vigils and make demands all based on ill informed facts.

Just to note I have not disrespected anyone's beliefs or their right to be vegan, I still stand by my opinions that their behaviour is laughable.

SomeGirl123 · 21-02-2013 12:05PM

To say behaviour is laughable is putting an end to any real debate by ridiculing any opposing opinion to your own. Also, I don't think it is that crazy to want to check out what is happening on the ship - Why would they mind, if all is above board? (However, I think it is mad to be exporting the live cattle in the first place)
As an analogy - If some groups had wanted to check out the builders / construction work going on by private companies/ individuals back in the boom, it may have saved alot of hardship for people now example priory hall.

jonnyfingers · 21-02-2013 12:14PM

Nypd wrote: »

I don't see how you can use dogs to support the argument, Irish society rears them mainly as domestic pets ( granted some are reared for sport and work).

They are going attract extreme labels when they carry out candle light vigils and make demands all based on ill informed facts.

Just to note I have not disrespected anyone's beliefs or their right to be vegan, I still stand by my opinions that their behaviour is laughable.

I agree that their actions and comments weren't the wisest but I think that's because they let their emotions get the better of them. My point is they're genuinely concerned about the animals involved and have a right to be concerned without being labelled as nutters. I only suggested dogs as most people don't see them the same way as they see cows, even though they're both animals at the end of the day. It was just to raise the question whether people who care about dogs' welfare are any better than these people who care about cows' welfare.

As for the Today FM interview, they were right to have concerns about the animal's welfare but they were wrong to make any claims about the ship or the conditions on board during the journey. By the same reasoning the guy from the exporting side can't claim that no animals will be harmed during the long journey as anything could happen at sea. But it is what it is. We have meat to sell, Libya would like meat to eat. The market is there and the vast majority couldn't really care less what happens once the ship leaves the port.

I do feel sorry for the animal rights activists though, they are in the minority in most Western countries and face a difficult battle to bring others round to their point of view. Candle light vigils won't really achieve anything except attract attention, most likely of the negative kind.

SomeGirl123 · 21-02-2013 01:17PM

The protesters are just people - they are not representing everyone who has an opinion on animal welfare. There are always extremists and/ or activisits - they are individuals also who may not approach things correctly or in the best way. They are not the issue - The issue is animal welfare. I personally do not like to see animals suffer (humans included) and do not like to turn a blind eye to it, just becasue of money. It is distressing for the animals and I think it is unnecessary.
The comparison to dogs is a good one. Would anyone care if dogs were treated in the same way?

razorgil · 21-02-2013 01:32PM

"I do feel sorry for the animal rights activists though, they are in the minority in most Western countries and face a difficult battle to bring others round to their point of view. "

and here was me thinking their objective was animal welfare

Not The Real Scarecrow · 21-02-2013 01:38PM

razorgil wrote: »

"I do feel sorry for the animal rights activists though, they are in the minority in most Western countries and face a difficult battle to bring others round to their point of view. "

and here was me thinking their objective was animal welfare

I think this is the main problem with alot of activists,they want people to accept and be tolerant of their point of view ,however alot of them are totally intolerant of any opposing views and are too caught up in changing peoples minds, leading to an attitude that rubs people up the wrong way. The message or cause is lost in the attitude.

SomeGirl123 · 21-02-2013 01:39PM

Their point of view, in this instance, is in regards to animal welfare.

wellboytoo · 21-02-2013 02:46PM

I saw a group of animal activists in patrick street in Cork before Christmas with a stall, a little old Lady in a fur coat doddled past and one of the group heckled her in top voice about wearing the skin of a dead animal, we had a few words.
Not the best way to ingratiate yourself with the public.
This is the big PR battle they always have, they tend to attract some serious wing nuts who detract from what might be seen as a good campaign.

O Riain · 21-02-2013 03:18PM

wellboytoo wrote: »

I saw a group of animal activists in patrick street in Cork before Christmas with a stall, a little old Lady in a fur coat doddled past and one of the group heckled her in top voice about wearing the skin of a dead animal, we had a few words.
Not the best way to ingratiate yorself with the public.
This is the big PR battle they always have, they tend to attract some serious wing nuts who detract from what might be seen as a good campaign.

Funny thing is that if you make clothes from fur and do it humanely it is so less damaging to the environment then the way we do it now with all the chemicals used. They have no clue but in saying that alot of fur is utter cruelty and cant be supported.

S28382 · 21-02-2013 03:39PM

Im reading this thread with great interest all the while im eating a great big beef burger:pac: (well i think its a beef burger it could be a horse)

Tipp Man · 21-02-2013 04:01PM

SomeGirl123 wrote: »

The issue is animal welfare. I personally do not like to see animals suffer (humans included) and do not like to turn a blind eye to it, just becasue of money. It is distressing for the animals and I think it is unnecessary.
The comparison to dogs is a good one. Would anyone care if dogs were treated in the same way?

How can you go around saying that these animals will suffer and that it is a welfare issue when you haven't the first idea about the conditions that these animals will travel in?? Not a clue

FYI these animals will have a continous uninterupted supply of hay and water as you'd expect and will be fed additional ration so that they do not loose condition on the voyage. They will be bedded with straw on a regular basis and will be in groups no bigger than 10 i think it is. They will also have a fully qualified VET on board the ship for the entire journey

Now if you think thats cruelty then people are right to call you a nutter etc

deisemum · 21-02-2013 04:23PM

seven_eleven wrote: »

If anybody was listening to Today FM this morning before 8, they had some representative on that was involved with the export of these cows and they also had a member of the group opposing it.

Very good points made on behalf of the exporters.

None of the animals are calves.

The ship and living conditions of the cattle are monitored and have to live up to EU standards as well as having €500,000 spent on improvements to bring the ship up to Irish standards (which is better than what the EU requires).

Ship inspected and approved by several people including the department of agriculture, and some US department.

Animals monitored and cared for by people from the department of agriculture (or something similar, presumably vets too) to ensure that they have sufficient living standards, aren't being overstressed and are treated right. They travel on the ship with them for the whole journey.

In previous times when this trade was operating, it was rare for animals to die on the journey. 100 when leaving Ireland, 100 when arriving in Africa.

That we don't have the right to tell other countries and religion how to slaughter their cows.

I'm glad and reassured there are Dept. of Agriculture vets onboard to ensure the animals are treated properly. If animals are stressed it affects the meat and that's not in anyones interest.

Nypd · 21-02-2013 04:38PM

SomeGirl123 wrote: »

To say behaviour is laughable is putting an end to any real debate by ridiculing any opposing opinion to your own. Also, I don't think it is that crazy to want to check out what is happening on the ship - Why would they mind, if all is above board? (However, I think it is mad to be exporting the live cattle in the first place)
As an analogy - If some groups had wanted to check out the builders / construction work going on by private companies/ individuals back in the boom, it may have saved alot of hardship for people now example priory hall.

Come now, why would anyone swing open their doors to a multi million euro vessel just because someone wants to have a look around let alone to a unqualified, uncertified and uninsured group, I really don't see why they feel or anyone else for that matter feels they have the right to do so.
I don't see what priory hall has to do with the export of cattle from Waterford.

This whole argument is based on assumptions and assumptions are the mother of all fk ups.

SomeGirl123 · 21-02-2013 04:45PM

Tipp Man: How do you know I have no clue about the conditions? In any case, I have already said I don't think they should be transported in that manner - whether you agree with me or not, does not mean I am a nutter - That is an extremists view ie. ''anyone who does not agree with you is a nutter''. I don't protest or anything but I wouldn't be bullied into changing my opinions for fear of being marginalised or called a nut.
anyhow I do hope they enjoy the cruise you descibe that they have embarked on..wonder if there are any tickets left...

SomeGirl123 · 21-02-2013 04:51PM

I am not assuming anything. I am a vegetarian. I don't protest or impede on other peoples right to eat meat etc. But obviously as someone who does not condone the killing of animals for meat, I would not agree with shipping them off either. Its just an opinion. If you think I'm a nut, that's fine. Likewise.

Tipp Man · 21-02-2013 05:06PM

SomeGirl123 wrote: »

I am not assuming anything. I am a vegetarian. I don't protest or impede on other peoples right to eat meat etc. But obviously as someone who does not condone the killing of animals for meat, I would not agree with shipping them off either. Its just an opinion. If you think I'm a nut, that's fine. Likewise.

Oh but you are assuming something

By using phrases like animal welfare, animal cruelty and suffering you are assuming that there is suffering, cruelty and animal welfare issues involved in the transport of these animals

As you have zero evidence to back this up, and are not on board with these animals, then yes it is an assumption of the highest order

I also assume that because these boats are being fitted to the highest standards, have more than adequate supply of food and water and that because their will be skilled personnel such as a VET on board for the entire journey that these animals will have a very pleasant and safe journey

My assumption is based on the facts as above - your assumption???

SomeGirl123 · 21-02-2013 05:08PM

I assume you do not like people with differing opinions to your own

2,900 cattle for the first live export vessel destined for Libya

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