2,900 cattle for the first live export vessel destined for Libya

Twoelles

I have just seen this come up on facebook as an protest group is organising a vigal tomorrow night, but I have to say I was really shocked to discover that we are exporting such a high number, live, and on such a long an dangerous journey. I thought these days most meat was slaughtered and then exported (or is this me being really naive).

and what about the welfare issues, how do they get fed and watered, how many get injured when the crossing gets rough. How stressful it must be to go from a lush irish field to be crammed into a dark space for weeks.

Is this still a normal practice and what do you think about it?

Sully

What's the connection with Waterford? Or did ya post in the wrong forum OP? o_O

Twoelles

Sorry I missed that bit out. All the cattle are being gathered here and loaded on at the waterford port, the vigil i seen is going to be in waterford and I live in waterford

Psychedelic

They're being shipped from the port in Belview.

http://www.wlrfm.com/news-and-sport/waterford-news/174605.html
http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/first-exports-to-libya-to-leave-in-two-weeks-28956291.html

I'd assume these animals are being exported for breeding purposes and are not going to be just slaughtered on arrival in Libya, so they should be taken care of during shipping.

feelgoodinc27

Stress will affect the condition of an animal and in turn its value. So its in the shippers interest to ensure they are well taken care of, also animal welfare is regulated to a high standard in Ireland.

Twoelles

Interesting articles, thank you. Do you know why the trade stopped 16 years ago

Trotter

They used to export cattle from the dock on the Quay in Waterford when I was a kid. My Grandad used to take me down to stand near the ramp to see the cattle coming off the trucks and up onto the ship. He used to tell me they were going on their Summer holidays to Libya and Egypt.

They were going on their holidays right?

Twoelles

feelgoodinc27 wrote: »

Stress will affect the condition of an animal and in turn its value. So its in the shippers interest to ensure they are well taken care of, also animal welfare is regulated to a high standard in Ireland.

maybe in Ireland but what about once they leave our shores - there are photos circulating that are quite horrific that seem to paint a very different story of the shippers

feelgoodinc27

Thats down to the condition of the animal, if they arrive in a poor state its hardly going to encourage repeat business.

mike65

Twoelles wrote: »

Interesting articles, thank you. Do you know why the trade stopped 16 years ago

BSE, the Libyans suddenly decided they didn't like Irish beef as much as the Irish liked Gadflys guns :pac: They ended the ban years ago but the trade only now resumes and I suspect the controversy that gathered around live exports is the reason.

mccarthy37

Twoelles wrote: »

I have just seen this come up on facebook as an protest group is organising a vigal tomorrow night, but I have to say I was really shocked to discover that we are exporting such a high number, live, and on such a long an dangerous journey. I thought these days most meat was slaughtered and then exported (or is this me being really naive).

and what about the welfare issues, how do they get fed and watered, how many get injured when the crossing gets rough. How stressful it must be to go from a lush irish field to be crammed into a dark space for weeks.

Is this still a normal practice and what do you think about it?

Well I suppose if they buy in on the huff they can be guaranteed it will be 100%
beef. We are such a trust worthy nation in the eyes of the world right now aren't we.

mike65

Getting paid should be the concern of the exporters.

farmer_dave

Psychedelic wrote: »

They're being shipped from the port in Belview.

http://www.wlrfm.com/news-and-sport/waterford-news/174605.html
http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/first-exports-to-libya-to-leave-in-two-weeks-28956291.html

I'd assume these animals are being exported for breeding purposes and are not going to be just slaughtered on arrival in Libya, so they should be taken care of during shipping.

The fact that these are all beef bulls and they are looking at the possibility of taking Holstein bulls later indicate that these are going for meat processing.

At the weight of 240kg - 350kg they would probably require finishing (continued growth) before being sent to the slaughterhouse.

As there is no mention of heifers or cows then this appears to me to be for meat rather than breeding.

Nypd

I think it's business this city badly needs.

wellboytoo

The farmers need another outlet other than the half dozen meat magnates they are beholding to at the moment since the gov closed all the small slaughter houses in their wisdom.
They are going for meat and the ship is built for live cattle so layerage is catered for.
It is the eventual end user in this case is shipping the animals so one would imagine it is in theor interest to get them there alive and kicking.

wellboytoo

Twoelles wrote: »

I have just seen this come up on facebook as an protest group is organising a vigal tomorrow night, but I have to say I was really shocked to discover that we are exporting such a high number, live, and on such a long an dangerous journey. I thought these days most meat was slaughtered and then exported (or is this me being really naive).

and what about the welfare issues, how do they get fed and watered, how many get injured when the crossing gets rough. How stressful it must be to go from a lush irish field to be crammed into a dark space for weeks.

Is this still a normal practice and what do you think about it?

To answer your question I think it is a normal part of the meat trade and assuming it is done professionally I would have no problem with it.
But I suspect you have an idealistic objection to it by the way you phrased your question?

Twoelles

wellboytoo wrote: »

To answer your question I think it is a normal part of the meat trade and assuming it is done professionally I would have no problem with it.
But I suspect you have an idealistic objection to it by the way you phrased your question?

I do indeed have an idealistic objection to it mainly because in my own naivety I didn't even know that animals were transported that distance live (but seen as it hasn't happened for 16 years I think i can be forgiven:)).

I do have an interest in animal welfare and in my ideal little world, livestock wouldn't have to go through this kind of stress, but back in the real world I also understand the importance of this trade to the Irish economy.

wellboytoo

Twoelles wrote: »

I do indeed have an idealistic objection to it mainly because in my own naivety I didn't even know that animals were transported that distance live (but seen as it hasn't happened for 16 years I think i can be forgiven:)).

I do have an interest in animal welfare and in my ideal little world, livestock wouldn't have to go through this kind of stress, but back in the real world I also understand the importance of this trade to the Irish economy.

I know a 72 year old truck driver who specialises in live animal transport and is just back from a run from Azerbaijan!
Now thats a long haul!

TheGormog

wellboytoo wrote: »

I know a 72 year old truck driver who specialises in live animal transport and is just back from a run from Azerbaijan!
Now thats a long haul!

And there was me thinking that the only specialist in live animal transport was the driver of the number 4 bus from Dublin to Tramore.

STIG83

Whats peoples problem with bringing business to Waterford city?
And it wouldn't surprise me the ones protesting never stepped foot on a farm in their life!!

STIG83

STIG83 wrote: »

Whats peoples problem with bringing business to Waterford city?
And it wouldn't surprise me the ones protesting never stepped foot on a farm in their life!!

Here Here!
This is good news for the city

SomeGirl123

It doesn't matter whether someone has stepped foot on a farm or not. It doesn't make someones opinion concerning cruelty to animals any less valid. Just cos you have not been to a concentration camp does it mean you can't have an opinion on them.

inforfun

Could tell a few stories from my time working in shipping and dealing with Lebanese shipowners whose core business was cattle transport.
If this shipment is done by those kind of cowboys you ld be "lucky" if 50% of the animals arrive alive.

Twoelles

Kara Ashy Bucket wrote: »

Here Here!
This is good news for the city

but is it? From what i have been reading not much of the money is going into the city. The cattle are from all over Ireland, the transport lorries are local to where the cattle are coming from so its just the export company....does anyone know how many jobs the export company has created for the city?

hardybuck

I can remember them being loaded onto ships on the quay as well, it's not too long ago now.

Cattle that are allowed leave on the hoof go at a far lower price than meat which has been slaughtered and prepared in Ireland.

At the moment we probably have more international demand for beef than we can supply. We shouldn't be allowing any livestock to leave the country to leave like this, as it takes a great deal of money out of our economy.

That's before we go down the road of animal welfare.

allthedoyles

The ship sailed at 4pm today and is giving ETA Libya 27th February :

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=372273000

Voyage Related Info (Last Received)

Draught: 5.7 m
Destination: MISRAHTAH LIBYA
ETA: 2013-02-27 13:00
Info Received: 2013-02-19

wellboytoo

Its kind of ironic that this thread is trying to get a head of steam going about exporting live cattle from Waterford/Ireland in a negative way, whilst we are exporting 80000 people and families a year because of lack of oppurtunities for them in dear old Ireland.

Max Powers

first off: candle light vigil for the exported cows....give me a break, its like some sort of joke.
2nd: even if you are some cow lover, they are using Irish standards for their trip.
3rd absolutle great news for Waterford Port and the South east.

wellboytoo

Twoelles wrote: »

but is it? From what i have been reading not much of the money is going into the city. The cattle are from all over Ireland, the transport lorries are local to where the cattle are coming from so its just the export company....does anyone know how many jobs the export company has created for the city?

I dont know exactly but 2900 catlle wont appear in one day someone has to feed them, muck out ,do the paper work, act as drovers, farmers will be providing feed to the layerage and the ship etc, if this is ongoing it will provide significant jobs and revenue to the local economy.

DeiseforLiam

I think the reason they are exported live is so that they can be slaughtered in a Halal manner (slit throat and left to bleed out) so maybe that is also a reason for the protests.

wellboytoo

Jenny1 wrote: »

I think the reason they are exported live is so that they can be slaughtered in a Halal manner (slit throat and left to bleed out) so maybe that is also a reason for the protests.

Halal slaughter happens in this country

allthedoyles

If this trial shipment works out , it will help to secure jobs in Belview Port .

Probably a small cash injection for Waterford itself , with extra jobs in security on the day , plus the lease of a large cattle holding facility near Waterford .

Apart from the Stevedores / ship agents , the biggest winner will be Waterford Port Company , from cargo dues / tonnage dues .

If the cattle boat has'nt been to Ireland / UK in the last 30 days , the Revenue Commissioners would pocket around €2,500 in Light Dues courtesy of the shipowners .

seven_eleven

If anybody was listening to Today FM this morning before 8, they had some representative on that was involved with the export of these cows and they also had a member of the group opposing it.

Very good points made on behalf of the exporters.

• None of the animals are calves.

• The ship and living conditions of the cattle are monitored and have to live up to EU standards as well as having €500,000 spent on improvements to bring the ship up to Irish standards (which is better than what the EU requires).
• Ship inspected and approved by several people including the department of agriculture, and some US department.
• Animals monitored and cared for by people from the department of agriculture (or something similar, presumably vets too) to ensure that they have sufficient living standards, aren't being overstressed and are treated right. They travel on the ship with them for the whole journey.
• In previous times when this trade was operating, it was rare for animals to die on the journey. 100 when leaving Ireland, 100 when arriving in Africa.
• That we don't have the right to tell other countries and religion how to slaughter their cows.

The opposing side, those who held a candle vigil last night seemed very ill informed and was repeatedly proved wrong.


They claimed that

• The animals were all calves.
• The ship living standards were extremely poor.
• The journey was too long for them to be stuck in one place.
• The sea was too rough.
• There was too much secrecy (because they werent allowed on board the ship) and there was something sinister about it.
• They're all vegans
• They oppose the slaughter of animals and eating of meat whether its here in Ireland, or anywhere else. (dingdingding!) :rolleyes:
• They were concerned that animals weren't being slaughtered in a humane, non halal way. (as if its any of their business)

All in all, this trade happened regularly 10+ years. Nobody complained about it then did they? This is a ridiculous non story only being stirred by nutjobs.

Nypd

Usual nutters so, why on earth do these people think they have the right to walk onto a ship to have a look around.

Do they have any clue about what they are looking at ?

Have they any clue about health and safety, I reckon they should be boxed and shipped out with the next load of cattle.

mike65

seven_eleven wrote: »

All in all, this trade happened regularly 10+ years. Nobody complained about it then did they?

This is a ridiculous non story only being stirred by nutjobs.

Actually they did, a lot!

Hoffmans

hope them libyians dont twig that half them "cows" were actually ponys in disguise....

spankmemunkey

This may sound crude but theyre going to be slaughtered and eaten, why dont they take a cow home and keep it till the end of its days!
Its called the food chain, although i do agree to a point with what they say or some of their thinking,

seven_eleven

mike65 wrote: »

Actually they did, a lot!

Shhhh! and dont tell them about the few times when cows jumped overboard and swam away down the suir never to be seen again. :pac:

Speak Now

seven_eleven wrote: »

Shhhh! and dont tell them about the few times when cows jumped overboard and swam away down the suir never to be seen again. :pac:

And the dish ran away with the spoon!!!

SomeGirl123

I'm shocked at peoples lack of empathy for any living thing. And also everyones lack of respect for differing opinions. My understanding is that open debate is how we progress as humans. but it appears your a 'nutjob' if you stray from the herd here. I'd prefer to be a nutjob who has some compassion and thought about society rather than blindly driven by money.

cbl593h

seven_eleven wrote: »

Shhhh! and dont tell them about the few times when cows jumped overboard and swam away down the suir never to be seen again. :pac:

And don't let them watch this film of more of the feckers trying to excape !!!!

Langerland 1975

rasper

Wow you re a nutjob if you have concerns for animal welfare now ,

Nypd

SomeGirl123 wrote: »

I'm shocked at peoples lack of empathy for any living thing. And also everyones lack of respect for differing opinions. My understanding is that open debate is how we progress as humans. but it appears your a 'nutjob' if you stray from the herd here. I'd prefer to be a nutjob who has some compassion and thought about society rather than blindly driven by money.

Beef is part of the food chain and is reared for a single purpose so I would find it hard to have empathy.
As a poster has pointed out the protesters have virtually none of their facts right and it's laughable that they think they can walk up to a ship and demand to check it out.
With carry one like that its no wonder they pick up labels such as nut jobs.

jonnyfingers

Nypd wrote: »

Beef is part of the food chain and is reared for a single purpose so I would find it hard to have empathy.
As a poster has pointed out the protesters have virtually none of their facts right and it's laughable that they think they can walk up to a ship and demand to check it out.
With carry one like that its no wonder they pick up labels such as nut jobs.

With carry on like that I suggest that they're naive in trying to get their point across. However that doesn't make them nut jobs, and it's wrong to label them as such.

I've been vegan for a couple of month now, mainly to test the health benefits rather than being overly appalled by eating animals, but I can completely understand why some people are very concerned with the treatment of animals, especially animals that are, as you pointed out, reared for a single purpose, namely slaughter.

For arguments sake if we started exporting dogs to China or Korea I'm sure a few more people would be against it and they wouldn't be labeled nut jobs.

Still doesn't mean you can have a look around on a private individual or company's ship though. But lets try to treat those who have differing opinions with respect.

Nypd

jonnyfingers wrote: »

With carry on like that I suggest that they're naive in trying to get their point across. However that doesn't make them nut jobs, and it's wrong to label them as such.

I've been vegan for a couple of month now, mainly to test the health benefits rather than being overly appalled by eating animals, but I can completely understand why some people are very concerned with the treatment of animals, especially animals that are, as you pointed out, reared for a single purpose, namely slaughter.

For arguments sake if we started exporting dogs to China or Korea I'm sure a few more people would be against it and they wouldn't be labeled nut jobs.

Still doesn't mean you can have a look around on a private individual or company's ship though. But lets try to treat those who have differing opinions with respect.

I don't see how you can use dogs to support the argument, Irish society rears them mainly as domestic pets ( granted some are reared for sport and work).

They are going attract extreme labels when they carry out candle light vigils and make demands all based on ill informed facts.

Just to note I have not disrespected anyone's beliefs or their right to be vegan, I still stand by my opinions that their behaviour is laughable.

SomeGirl123

To say behaviour is laughable is putting an end to any real debate by ridiculing any opposing opinion to your own. Also, I don't think it is that crazy to want to check out what is happening on the ship - Why would they mind, if all is above board? (However, I think it is mad to be exporting the live cattle in the first place)
As an analogy - If some groups had wanted to check out the builders / construction work going on by private companies/ individuals back in the boom, it may have saved alot of hardship for people now example priory hall.

jonnyfingers

Nypd wrote: »

I don't see how you can use dogs to support the argument, Irish society rears them mainly as domestic pets ( granted some are reared for sport and work).

They are going attract extreme labels when they carry out candle light vigils and make demands all based on ill informed facts.

Just to note I have not disrespected anyone's beliefs or their right to be vegan, I still stand by my opinions that their behaviour is laughable.

I agree that their actions and comments weren't the wisest but I think that's because they let their emotions get the better of them. My point is they're genuinely concerned about the animals involved and have a right to be concerned without being labelled as nutters. I only suggested dogs as most people don't see them the same way as they see cows, even though they're both animals at the end of the day. It was just to raise the question whether people who care about dogs' welfare are any better than these people who care about cows' welfare.

As for the Today FM interview, they were right to have concerns about the animal's welfare but they were wrong to make any claims about the ship or the conditions on board during the journey. By the same reasoning the guy from the exporting side can't claim that no animals will be harmed during the long journey as anything could happen at sea. But it is what it is. We have meat to sell, Libya would like meat to eat. The market is there and the vast majority couldn't really care less what happens once the ship leaves the port.

I do feel sorry for the animal rights activists though, they are in the minority in most Western countries and face a difficult battle to bring others round to their point of view. Candle light vigils won't really achieve anything except attract attention, most likely of the negative kind.

SomeGirl123

The protesters are just people - they are not representing everyone who has an opinion on animal welfare. There are always extremists and/ or activisits - they are individuals also who may not approach things correctly or in the best way. They are not the issue - The issue is animal welfare. I personally do not like to see animals suffer (humans included) and do not like to turn a blind eye to it, just becasue of money. It is distressing for the animals and I think it is unnecessary.
The comparison to dogs is a good one. Would anyone care if dogs were treated in the same way?

razorgil

"I do feel sorry for the animal rights activists though, they are in the minority in most Western countries and face a difficult battle to bring others round to their point of view. "





and here was me thinking their objective was animal welfare

Not The Real Scarecrow

razorgil wrote: »

"I do feel sorry for the animal rights activists though, they are in the minority in most Western countries and face a difficult battle to bring others round to their point of view. "





and here was me thinking their objective was animal welfare

I think this is the main problem with alot of activists,they want people to accept and be tolerant of their point of view ,however alot of them are totally intolerant of any opposing views and are too caught up in changing peoples minds, leading to an attitude that rubs people up the wrong way. The message or cause is lost in the attitude.

SomeGirl123

Their point of view, in this instance, is in regards to animal welfare.