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Page 3-Harmless fun or sexist?

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    #92
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Galwayguy35, please respect that the purpose of this forum is for the ladies of boards to have somewhere to discuss issues pertinent to them - and the topic of this thread is how the ladies feel about page-3...what men get aggravated at and why is for a different discussion/forum...and if female posters want to get worked up over anything - this is their forum to do so.

    If you haven't already done so, could you please familiarise yourself with the forum charter.



    As per site rules; any issue with a moderator instruction/warning should be taken up via PM


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    #93
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Ok but that wasn't really the point I was making. I was saying that women seem to get very worked up about what other women choose to do to earn a living, e.g. Page 3 photos where as men don't care what other men do. I see posts like " I wouldn't respect her for doing page 3". Well so what it's not really anything to do with anyone else.

    I don't think that is particularly true, men can have very strong reactions to an other mans career choice that are often based in an odd view of the gender roles.

    If a cross dressing cabaret singer walks down the street in his work dress I am pretty sure he is likely to hear some remarks.


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    #94
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    I don't think that is particularly true, men can have very strong reactions to an other mans career choice that are often based in an odd view of the gender roles.

    If a cross dressing cabaret singer walks down the street in his work dress I am pretty sure he is likely to hear some remarks.

    I'd even go as far to say that a man doing a stereotypically woman's job will get a lot more slagging for it than a woman doing a stereotypically man's job. The woman is more likely to get approval from her peers (bar the odd sandwich joke :rolleyes:), whereas the man is more likely to have his career choice laughed at by his friends.


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    #95
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,339 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    I don't think that is particularly true, men can have very strong reactions to an other mans career choice that are often based in an odd view of the gender roles.

    If a cross dressing cabaret singer walks down the street in his work dress I am pretty sure he is likely to hear some remarks.

    What kind of strong reactions would a man have to another guys career choice? What are these careers? I can't think of any.


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    #96
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    What kind of strong reactions would a man have to another guys career choice? What are these careers? I can't think of any.
    well I don't know any blokes that aspire to be stylists for example.


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    #97
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    smash wrote: »
    well I don't know any blokes that aspire to be stylists for example.

    Male hairdressers or beauticians are likely to have their sexuality questioned. I can imagine guys working cleaning jobs getting a bit of slagging off as well.


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    #98
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    fluorescence wrote: »
    Male hairdressers or beauticians are likely to have their sexuality questioned. I can imagine guys working cleaning jobs getting a bit of slagging off as well.
    even 10-15 years ago it was picked up and friends ran an episode where Ross was scared to hire a male nanny.


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    #99
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    smash wrote: »
    even 10-15 years ago it was picked up and friends ran an episode where Ross was scared to hire a male nanny.

    Indeed, so saying men don't care about other men's jobs like women do is rubbish. All people are a bit nosey to some extent :P

    Anyway, while I think Page 3 is quite a silly and outdated tradition, I don't think it's fundamentally sexist or harmful. I wouldn't encourage it though.


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    #100
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    What kind of strong reactions would a man have to another guys career choice? What are these careers? I can't think of any.

    There are plenty, male nurse, male nanny, hair dresser etc. Then the aforementioned cabaret singer which is a career choice for some.

    Even look at sports. A guy plays for one team, then moves to another...the instant the move happens he goes from hero to villain.

    Your initial point was that men don't care what other men do, but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

    Back to jobs, some men hate cops, some men hate the tax man, the old clamper is always a good one.


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    #101
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    There are plenty, male nurse, male nanny, hair dresser etc. Then the aforementioned cabaret singer which is a career choice for some.

    Even look at sports. A guy plays for one team, then moves to another...the instant the move happens he goes from hero to villain.

    Your initial point was that men don't care what other men do, but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

    Back to jobs, some men hate cops, some men hate the tax man, the old clamper is always a good one.

    I am not sure you can equate hating a particular job to hating an individual for doing that job.


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    #102
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,339 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Back to jobs, some men hate cops, some men hate the tax man, the old clamper is always a good one.

    I don't think those dislikes are specific to men in fairness.
    And my original point was that men wouldn't be too worried about other men posing for photo spreads not what job they were doing.


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    #103
    newport2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,581 ✭✭✭newport2


    fluorescence wrote: »
    I'd even go as far to say that a man doing a stereotypically woman's job will get a lot more slagging for it than a woman doing a stereotypically man's job. The woman is more likely to get approval from her peers (bar the odd sandwich joke :rolleyes:), whereas the man is more likely to have his career choice laughed at by his friends.

    True his friends are likely to slag him about it. Nothing to do with his job really, merely an excuse to slag him. If he changed job, they'd just find something else to rib him with. That's what guys do.

    It's totally different from getting bothered about what he does or feeling he is letting the side down. But I appreciate there are reasons for this. I don't think there's really any male equivalent to a page three girl. Most men don't care if other men pose naked. Although they might start to if 80% of magazine racks were full of pictures of handsome men with perfect six-packs ;)


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    #104
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Folks, don't ignore the warning. This forum exists as a platform for female posters to discuss issues pertinent to them from a female perspective - please stop turning such discussions around into a discussion about men from a male perspective.

    If you haven't already done so, please take the time to read the forum charter and respect the purpose and ethos of this forum. There are all manner of other forums available for discussion from any other perspectives.

    Many thanks.


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    #105
    Fizzlesque
    Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭Fizzlesque


    From my teens to my late twenties I hated Page 3 and top shelf magazines because they made me really self conscious and uncomfortable - and probably a bit nauseas as well. Growing up in an all male environment (with my dad and 4 brothers) resulted in me really struggling with my sexuality and I used hide my changing body in big baggy T shirts. If I ended up in a situation where someone was looking at Page 3 it would make me extremely uncomfortable and wish I could evaporate into thin air.

    In my late twenties I worked in a warehouse (in Scotland) and one day when I walked into where I was working about six of the men were huddled around the paper that was doing a two-page spread of topless women (something football/football jersey colours related, can't remember too well) and they asked me which one I'd choose. I felt mortified and humiliated and I told them to let me know when they were finished and I'd return to my work station then. One of the men criticised me for being a prude and slagged me off. He didn't appreciate the pictures of naked men I brought in the following week and left lying around the office - even though they were selected from an art book, so they were 'arty' shots don't ya know :P

    I'm 43 now and have become fairly desensitised to the whole Page 3 thing so it wouldn't bother me as much these days. As well as that, I'm glad to be able to say that the older I got the more comfortable with my sexuality/femininity I became - but back in those earlier days I felt like my sexuality/femininity didn't really belong to me, instead it was an add on/feature of who I was because I was a woman, kind of tacked onto me for others to enjoy and that I had to find a way to live less uncomfortably with. All quite messed up really. Even typing this makes me want to go back in time and hug the earlier me - and tell her not to worry; that one day she'll discover her inner vixen and make up for lost time :D


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    #106
    marbless
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭marbless


    Looks like Page 3 feature may be coming to an end. "Rupert Murdoch in cover-up shock"
    http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/02/11/murdoch-hints-at-the-end-of-page-3


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    #107
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,339 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    The women were paid for the pictures and were there of their own free will, amazing how people feel they have to be outraged for someone elses decision to be in the paper.

    I don't see any protests when Beckham and others strip off to their jocks or when these firemen calenders come out.

    Strange that...


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    #108
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,138 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    The women were paid for the pictures and were there of their own free will, amazing how people feel they have to be outraged for someone elses decision to be in the paper.

    I don't see any protests when Beckham and others strip off to their jocks or when these firemen calenders come out.

    Strange that...

    They are equally as bad.
    I don't know why men don't protest about things that affect them. The dreadful portrayal of men as stupid in so many ads for example. It seems easier to blame 'feminism' in some way for it and many do.


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    #109
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    spurious wrote: »
    They are equally as bad.
    I don't know why men don't protest about things that affect them. The dreadful portrayal of men as stupid in so many ads for example. It seems easier to blame 'feminism' in some way for it and many do.

    I think its because most men don't see Beckham without his clothes as some kind of threat

    there are better looking men in the world than me, thats life, who cares

    I remember being in the pub one night and a stunning woman came in the door, and the two women I was drinking with started making mean comments about her choice of dress, shoes ect

    nothing worse than women attacking other women

    so I think most of the women who let things like page 3 wind them up have hang ups about their own bodies

    also the idea that page 3 would be ok if the models were more "diverse" is very funny


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    #110
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    ^So even having read all of the objections on this thread , your conclusion is that we're all just jealous?


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    #111
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Whatever happened to the concept of respecting the free will of others provided that their actions cause you no harm?

    Now I'm just putting it out there that perhaps the models themselves want to have their pictures published on Page 3. For whatever reason they chose their particular careers and Page 3 is a means for them to further these careers.

    Is it really our right to deny them this opportunity?


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    #112
    Fizzlesque
    Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭Fizzlesque


    nokia69 wrote: »
    so I think most of the women who let things like page 3 wind them up have hang ups about their own bodies

    I think there are a lot more reasons why page three bothers women than having hangups about their own bodies. I had a great body in my 20s, my dislike of page three was nothing to do with how I looked, but it had a lot to do with the endless and totally rubbish message that how a woman looks (and how sexy she is) is of greater importance than anything else.

    I hated page three with passion during my 20s because it reinforced the nauseating idea that women are on the planet to be pretty little creatures that make men think of sex. I developed early (one of the first girls in primary school to need a bra) and became quite buxom almost overnight, and it filled me with absolute horror. I hated, deeply hated, having breasts and used (try) hide myself under baggy T shirts. Seeing men's eyes drift down to my chest made me want to curl up in a ball and die because I hated the thoughts of them having sexual thoughts about me - with too much focus on the lumps of human lard that now adorned the front of me. Page three took all those feelings of discomfort and made me feel a thousand times worse; not because I felt I wasn't as attractive (I was) but because it made me think I was the one with the dysfunction, made me think I was simply a prude, made me think I was warped and damaged, and, worst of all, made me think this was just one of the prices I had to pay for being born a woman.

    Nice huh? Spending the best part of my late teens, all my 20s, and a huge chunk of my 30s, trying to deny my femininity and my sexuality because it made me sick to my stomach to see men of all ages ogle me (or, more accurately, my breasts) and every time I saw a man looking at page three it solidified those feelings of nausea and discomfort a little bit more.

    So, no, hangups about my body did not play a part. I wanted to be able to go to work, go to the shops for bread or the paper, have a cup of tea in the canteen, lots of everyday situations I wanted to just be me, not sexual me, just me, but seeing a half naked woman with her finger in her gob trying to look sexy and sultry in a newspaper that every Tom, Dick and Harry might be reading two feet away from me meant I had to have my own discomfort about being a woman with breasts brought back to the surface on a ridiculously regular basis. THAT is what wound me up, THAT is what stifled my ability to come to terms with my own sexuality, THAT is what made me wish the ground would open up and swallow me whole on far too many occasions.

    It's far too complex a thing to be summed up with "women who wish they were more attractive hate it". You insult many women (perhaps unintentionally) with your flippant dismissal of why page three bothers them. It's a lot more intricate and complicated than simple jealousy, let me assure you of that. An awful lot more.


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    #113
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Fizzlesque wrote: »
    I think there are a lot more reasons why page three bothers women than having hangups about their own bodies. I had a great body in my 20s, my dislike of page three was nothing to do with how I looked, but it had a lot to do with the endless and totally rubbish message that how a woman looks (and how sexy she is) is of greater importance than anything else.

    I hated page three with passion during my 20s because it reinforced the nauseating idea that women are on the planet is to be pretty little creatures that make men think of sex. I developed early (one of the first girls in primary school to need a bra) and became quite buxom almost overnight, and it filled me with absolute horror. I hated, deeply hated, having breasts and used (try) hide myself under baggy T shirts. Seeing men's eyes drift down to my chest made me want to curl up in a ball and die because I hated the thoughts of them having sexual thoughts about me. Page three took all those feelings of discomfort and made me feel a thousand times worse; not because I felt I wasn't as attractive (I was) but because it made me think I was the one with the dysfunction, made me think I was simply a prude, made me think I was warped and damaged, and, worst of all, made me think this was just one of the prices I had to pay for being born a woman.

    Nice huh? Spending the best part of my late teens, all my 20s, and a huge chunk of my 30s, trying to deny my femininity and my sexuality because it made me sick to my stomach to see men of all ages ogle me (or, more accurately, my breasts) and every time I saw a man looking at page three it solidified those feelings of nausea and discomfort a little bit more.

    So, no, hangups about my body did not play a part. I wanted to be able to go to work, go to the shops for bread or the paper, have a cup of tea in the canteen, lots of everyday situations I wanted to just be me, not sexual me, just me, but seeing a half naked woman with her finger in her gob trying to look sexy and sultry in a newspaper that every Tom, Dick and Harry might be reading two feet away from me meant I had to have my own discomfort about being a woman with breasts brought back to the surface on a ridiculously regular basis. THAT is what wound me up, THAT is what stifled my ability to come to terms with my own sexuality, THAT is what made me wish the ground would open up and swallow me whole on far too many occasions.

    It's far too complex a thing to be summed up with "women who wish they were more attractive hate it". You insult many women (perhaps unintentionally) with your flippant dismissal of why page three bothers them. It's a lot more intricate and complicated than simple jealousy, let me assure you of that. An awful lot more.

    That's a fair point but let's flip the argument for just a moment.

    For every page 3 photo there's probably about 2 photos of some male model with their shirt off looking all seductive and whathaveyou in the same paper.

    Now I'd have the same hangups WRT those photo's as you would WRT the page 3 model, should we ban those photos being published in the tabloids too? Afterall they cause the same negative feelings for men.


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    #114
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    P_1 wrote: »
    That's a fair point but let's flip the argument for just a moment.

    For every page 3 photo there's probably about 2 photos of some male model with their shirt off looking all seductive and whathaveyou in the same paper.

    Now I'd have the same hangups WRT those photo's as you would WRT the page 3 model, should we ban those photos being published in the tabloids too? Afterall they cause the same negative feelings for men.

    No. Let's NOT flip the argument.
    If men have negative feelings on their photos, go and start a thread about them. Whataboutery is not a good counter to "I have a problem with this."
    Seriously, she posted a long post about the stress and problems she has gone through and your response is "that's nice but what about men"?


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    #115
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    bluewolf wrote: »
    No. Let's NOT flip the argument.
    If men have negative feelings on their photos, go and start a thread about them. Whataboutery is not a good counter to "I have a problem with this."
    Seriously, she posted a long post about the stress and problems she has gone through and your response is "that's nice but what about men"?

    That wasn't my intention at all.

    The point I was trying to make was that these 'seductive photos' regardless of gender cause issues to both genders. Some people enjoy watching them and other people loath them due to the feelings that they inspire to them.

    It's all about equality at the end of the day, afterall far too much crap in this world has been caused by inequality so there's give and take involved with both sides.


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    #116
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Fizzlesque wrote: »
    I think there are a lot more reasons why page three bothers women than having hangups about their own bodies. I had a great body in my 20s, my dislike of page three was nothing to do with how I looked, but it had a lot to do with the endless and totally rubbish message that how a woman looks (and how sexy she is) is of greater importance than anything else.

    I hated page three with passion during my 20s because it reinforced the nauseating idea that women are on the planet is to be pretty little creatures that make men think of sex. I developed early (one of the first girls in primary school to need a bra) and became quite buxom almost overnight, and it filled me with absolute horror. I hated, deeply hated, having breasts and used (try) hide myself under baggy T shirts. Seeing men's eyes drift down to my chest made me want to curl up in a ball and die because I hated the thoughts of them having sexual thoughts about me. Page three took all those feelings of discomfort and made me feel a thousand times worse; not because I felt I wasn't as attractive (I was) but because it made me think I was the one with the dysfunction, made me think I was simply a prude, made me think I was warped and damaged, and, worst of all, made me think this was just one of the prices I had to pay for being born a woman.

    Nice huh? Spending the best part of my late teens, all my 20s, and a huge chunk of my 30s, trying to deny my femininity and my sexuality because it made me sick to my stomach to see men of all ages ogle me (or, more accurately, my breasts) and every time I saw a man looking at page three it solidified those feelings of nausea and discomfort a little bit more.

    So, no, hangups about my body did not play a part. I wanted to be able to go to work, go to the shops for bread or the paper, have a cup of tea in the canteen, lots of everyday situations I wanted to just be me, not sexual me, just me, but seeing a half naked woman with her finger in her gob trying to look sexy and sultry in a newspaper that every Tom, Dick and Harry might be reading two feet away from me meant I had to have my own discomfort about being a woman with breasts brought back to the surface on a ridiculously regular basis. THAT is what wound me up, THAT is what stifled my ability to come to terms with my own sexuality, THAT is what made me wish the ground would open up and swallow me whole on far too many occasions.

    It's far too complex a thing to be summed up with "women who wish they were more attractive hate it". You insult many women (perhaps unintentionally) with your flippant dismissal of why page three bothers them. It's a lot more intricate and complicated than simple jealousy, let me assure you of that. An awful lot more.

    I don't want to insult anyone

    but you claim that its not issues with their own bodies that makes some women hate page 3

    but then you go into detail about your problems coming to terms with your own changing body, and how this made you hate page 3, does this not prove my point

    I do admit that plenty women don't like page 3 for all kinds of different reasons, I just think for most its their own hang ups that are the roots of their problem with page 3


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    #117
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    I'm sure once upon a time page three girls increased circulation and sales of the paper, just as sports does and neither of which are news as such. But they bring in viewers and consumers so they are included in the so called news.

    With the ever increasing exposure of breasts and female nudity on tv, the internet, etc, the page 3 girl is hardly going to have the same impact that she once had.

    I guess what's weird about it, is that its very public, like its acceptable to be sitting around your coffee break reading it or on the bus or something, whereas other nudity is private, you wouldn't open out a center fold on the DART for example.

    On the other hand you could call 80% of the history of western art sexist too, but it's still amazing isn't it?


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    #118
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    P_1 wrote: »
    That wasn't my intention at all.

    The point I was trying to make was that these 'seductive photos' regardless of gender cause issues to both genders. Some people enjoy watching them and other people loath them due to the feelings that they inspire to them.

    It's all about equality at the end of the day, afterall far too much crap in this world has been caused by inequality so there's give and take involved with both sides.

    Dismissing someone's posts "because what about men" and on the pretext of equality is not constructive. The problems men face due to media images could well be a very worthwhile discussion, but quoting someone trying to open up about it on a thread about female images in a female forum is not the place, and it cheapens both topics.

    I'm sorry if I appear to be backseat modding here, guys


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    #119
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,095 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    bluewolf wrote: »
    No. Let's NOT flip the argument.
    If men have negative feelings on their photos, go and start a thread about them. Whataboutery is not a good counter to "I have a problem with this."
    Seriously, she posted a long post about the stress and problems she has gone through and your response is "that's nice but what about men"?
    Couldn't have put it better myself(no great shock to onlookers to be fair).

    P_1, whether it was your intention or not, "Whataboutery" is something we don't take to too well in this forum. We have way too much of it. If you feel the need please feel free to start a thread elsewhere. The world/Boards.ie is your oyster, but not here. Thank you.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #120
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    spurious wrote: »
    They are equally as bad.
    I don't know why men don't protest about things that affect them. The dreadful portrayal of men as stupid in so many ads for example. It seems easier to blame 'feminism' in some way for it and many do.

    Because there is pressure on men not to appear as whining. That's what girls do. They have to be strong oaks. Otherwise they may as well be a woman.


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    #121
    Fizzlesque
    Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭Fizzlesque


    nokia69 wrote: »
    I don't want to insult anyone

    but you claim that its not issues with their own bodies that makes some women hate page 3

    but then you go into detail about your problems coming to terms with your own changing body, and how this made you hate page 3, does this not prove my point

    I do admit that plenty women don't like page 3 for all kinds of different reasons, I just think for most its their own hang ups that are the roots of their problem with page 3

    I'll admit, a lot of the reason I had so much difficulty with my changing body was because I grew up with no female role model, in a house of boys, so I was quite put out when the 'rules' suddenly changed, and all of a sudden being a woman meant being at a disadvantage. However, the message I got (and am getting today, from your posts) is that I am the one with the problem. Basically, seeing an old geezer on the bus scratch his balls as he flicks through the paper and linger longer on page three is just one of those things a teenage girl should learn to live with. Seeing my male work colleagues snigger and discuss which girl's breasts are better, when page three do a 'special' is just something a 23 year old girl should learn to live with.

    I don't care so much any more, though, today I went for a walk in my local park and misjudged the temperature so I was wearing a tight top under my jacket that I'd never have worn if I'd known I'd get too warm to wear the jacket, so, when I got too warm and had to take off my jacket I found myself 'rearranging' scarf in such a way (although I'd rather have removed it because I was too warm) so as not to be conscious of my breasts looming large in front of me. These are the small but noticeable leftovers of my discomfort about being a woman, a woman with breasts that are hard to hide.

    I said all I said because I don't know if many men know how uncomfortable some women are about breasts being turned into a side show. Almost a freak show, and then to be told you're causing your own distress by allowing page three to bother you. Page three existed long before I became a woman, so I really don't think I was the chicken that came before that particular egg.


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