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Broken window landlord dispute - help!

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2

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    #32
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    Pity. Thought it might be another stick to beat her with!

    Best of luck anyway! :)


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    #33
    Gary The Gamer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 179 ✭✭Gary The Gamer


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    Pity. Thought it might be another stick to beat her with!

    Best of luck anyway! :)
    Always make sure to let revenue know about the situation to be completely in the clear yourself. ;)


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    #34
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    DO NOT let her take any of the deposit for repainting, unless you were throwing mud against the walls or had kids doodling all over it then it's wear and tear and she can't take anything for it.


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    #35
    generalbison
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭generalbison


    Solicitor on friday said I am in the right as far as he is concerned, and in a good position given the "paper trail" of the email history, and given how badly the landlord has acted thus far. In particular the unannounced visit by the landlord is a big no-no, breach of the lease, and the PRTB will take a very dim view of that. He even suggested that that "visit" in itself could be grounds for a separate complaint to the PRTB, or just roll it up with the window business to build/support the case.

    He helped me draft up a letter that I sent to her via email. Her reaction was predictably bullish, and she wants to speak directly to the solicitor now. I don't know why, but it will soon all be in the hands of the PRTB.

    I'm sort of expecting her to demand I cover her bills for legal fees and for her flight over for the surprise inspection or something. I wouldn't put anything past her.

    My mother was there for the surprise visit. Mum said afterwards that the landlord was the most vile, awful, detestable person she had ever met in her 60 years, and she has had to deal with plenty of dodgy customers in her job over the years. She was visibly upset after the landlord had left, and has asked not to be involved at all from now on, as she never wants to see, hear or meet the landlord EVER again. Said she felt like throwing up after the meeting, and to make matters worse got trapped in the lift for 5-10 minutes when she left :eek:

    I wish I could warn potential future tenants about the landlord


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    #36
    generalbison
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭generalbison


    Question: Can the landlord take this up a notch to a civil case or something, and just sue us, separate to the PRTB? As in force us into a law case with lawyers and legal expenses. As she probably thinks that the PRTB wont do her any favours, so her best chance is to splash some money at the problem, and thinks that we wont be able to afford fighting that kind of case.


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    #37
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    http://www.landlordsonline.ie/q-a/general/i-am-unhappy-with-the-prtbs-decision/


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    #38
    generalbison
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭generalbison


    Just to keep this updated. It's been all quiet for the last week or so. Too quiet!

    Cleaned the apartment yesterday for hours, and it is pristine! Only things left are to mop living room/kitchen floors and re-tackle the oven, as the grease/grime is being stubborn in there

    Worries me a bit that landlord has gone dead quiet. My paranoia says she is planning something, or waiting for her moment to strike, but we shall see.

    Lease ends on 31st, so will see what happens when it comes to deposit return, which I fear will lead to a whole new chapter in this tale.


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    #39
    Funnyonion79
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Funnyonion79


    That oven pride is amazing stuff for cleaning the oven. Mine was disgusting and the oven glass was pure black with grease. You wouldn't even have known it was a pane of glass!

    Some hot water, baking soda, elbow grease and then oven pride - turned it into a sparkling clean oven again. Couldn't believe that the glass came out so well. Now you can see right into it again!!


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    #40
    generalbison
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭generalbison


    Long overdue update!

    So, lease ended, moved out, and surprise surprise the landlord did not return the security deposit. Waited 6 weeks for it, as 1 month is the minimum reasonable time you have to wait for deposit return. Then lodged a dispute with the PRTB in October.

    Yesterday PRTB called to say that the case is now being looked into. Today got an email to say that a provisional hearing date is scheduled for mid-March, for resolution by adjudication.

    I've compiled all the emails back n forth over the whole thing into an easy to read document, that i will submit as evidence through the PRTB's dispute website.

    The thing is, from what the PRTB rep said, this all boils down to a simple deposit withholding case. The window stuff is superfluous, as the deposit withholding is most important. So if the PRTB rule in my favour and the deposit is returned, it may mean that the landlord can still submit their own dispute through PRTB over the window. But that would take another 9-12 months to process before a hearing is scheduled as it is not as high a priority.
    But who knows, at the hearing the adjudicator may make a statement/ruling on the window issue as well.


    So anyone know what the adjudication process is like?
    No idea if the ex-landlord will even bother to fly over from UK for it.


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    #41
    Funnyonion79
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Funnyonion79


    Well done for seeing it through. Hopefully you should get a judgement in your favour to teach this desperate landlord a lesson!!

    Best of luck and let us know how you get on.


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    #42
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    First of all. Good stuff.
    generalbison wrote: »
    So, lease ended, moved out, and surprise surprise the landlord did not return the security deposit. Waited 6 weeks for it, as 1 month is the minimum reasonable time you have to wait for deposit return.

    Where did this advice come from?
    Landlords/agents would hardly wait 6 weeks for tenants to stump up a deposit on the start of a lease.
    There is no reason why they should be allowed this time-frame to return it.


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    #43
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    generalbison wrote: »
    I wish I could warn potential future tenants about the landlord
    If you win the PTRB ruling, accidentally post yourself a letter about winning the case, to your old apartment...? :P


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    #44
    xper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭xper


    generalbison wrote: »
    The thing is, from what the PRTB rep said, this all boils down to a simple deposit withholding case. The window stuff is superfluous, as the deposit withholding is most important.
    This makes sense. Unlike the other matters*, you are actually out of pocket for the deposit. Cash is king. The window issue was always in the landlord's court to bring to the PRTB (and lose!). Did you make a specific complaint about the unannounced visit trespass in addition to the deposit retention?

    * That's right isn't it? You didn't hand over any money for the window, I hope.

    If all the facts are as you presented to us in this thread, she hasn't a leg to stand on and the PRTB will rule against her. Be aware that at that point, she might still not hand over the money if she's still in belligerent mode. In that case, you'd have to get an enforcement order in court or get the PRTB to enforce it (which, it has been reported, they are slow to do).


    As for warning future tenants, there are so many ill-informed, irresponsible or downright abusive landlords that I am really coming to the view that a properly run nd publicly accessible licensing system for landlords, with penalty points for transgressions, would be a good idea (as long as it is used by the state to regulate, not generate income).


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    #45
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    xper wrote: »
    ...As for warning future tenants, there are so many ill-informed, irresponsible or downright abusive landlords that I am really coming to the view that a properly run nd publicly accessible licensing system for landlords, with penalty points for transgressions, would be a good idea (as long as it is used by the state to regulate, not generate income).

    Ditto tenants. Both lodge a bond/deposit. Abuse it, and lose it.


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    #46
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Zamboni wrote: »
    Where did this advice come from?
    Landlords/agents would hardly wait 6 weeks for tenants to stump up a deposit on the start of a lease.
    There is no reason why they should be allowed this time-frame to return it.

    Id love to know the legal position of this. I am of the opinion that a week is the absolute most that any tenant should be waiting for their deposit to be returned, but for the most part there is no good reason why it cannot be returned on the same day the keys are handed back. Anything more than a week is theft in my opinion.


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    #47
    mdebets
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭mdebets


    djimi wrote: »
    Id love to know the legal position of this. I am of the opinion that a week is the absolute most that any tenant should be waiting for their deposit to be returned, but for the most part there is no good reason why it cannot be returned on the same day the keys are handed back. Anything more than a week is theft in my opinion.
    I have to disagree with you here. Even 4 weeks might be a little bit short. The landlord should keep all/part of the deposit, to cover himself against outstanding utility bills, unless the tenant has closing bills for all the utilities that were in his name.


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    #48
    generalbison
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭generalbison


    Zamboni wrote: »
    Where did this advice come from?
    Landlords/agents would hardly wait 6 weeks for tenants to stump up a deposit on the start of a lease.
    There is no reason why they should be allowed this time-frame to return it.
    I can't remember where I read it now, but I'm sure I read that 30 days was the "reasonable amount of time" to wait for deposit return before lodging a PRTB complaint/dispute (the extra 2 week delay was my own fault). Had a quick google but can't seem to find the source now. Perhaps I was mistaken about this.
    xper wrote: »
    This makes sense. Unlike the other matters*, you are actually out of pocket for the deposit. Cash is king. The window issue was always in the landlord's court to bring to the PRTB (and lose!). Did you make a specific complaint about the unannounced visit trespass in addition to the deposit retention?

    * That's right isn't it? You didn't hand over any money for the window, I hope.
    - Yes, included in the PRTB complaint is the fact that she showed up unannounced.

    - And yes, haven't handed over a cent for the window. She just kept the deposit to pay for it, which she even said herself that she would not accept payment for the window out of the security deposit


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    #49
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    mdebets wrote: »
    I have to disagree with you here. Even 4 weeks might be a little bit short. The landlord should keep all/part of the deposit, to cover himself against outstanding utility bills, unless the tenant has closing bills for all the utilities that were in his name.

    Utililty bills are in my name, not the landlords, therefore its my problem if they are not closed off. If the bills are in the landlords name then its a different story, but how long does it take to make a phone call to the utility company to see how much is outstanding on the account? A half an hour should cover such checks, not a day or a week and certainly not a month.

    The tenant needs their deposit to move into their next place. Even keeping it for a week is taking the piss; to hold it for a month is downright absurd, and can hugely affect the tenants ability to move into their new property.


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    #50
    Mr.Wemmick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    mdebets wrote: »
    I have to disagree with you here. Even 4 weeks might be a little bit short. The landlord should keep all/part of the deposit, to cover himself against outstanding utility bills, unless the tenant has closing bills for all the utilities that were in his name.

    So a tenant should be punished and suffer out of the lack of organisation or foresight on the part of the Landlord or so-called professional agent? If notice has been given then it is up to the LL and tenant to get everything in order within the notice period: bills paid, property checked, cleaning, repairs done etc. On the moving out date, once a final check has been completed, the tenant's money should be automatically be given back, there and then.

    Any deductions for damages should be agreed and signed for by both parties during the notice period. It's not rocket science.. just a small amount of organisational foresight is needed, and saying that a LL requires weeks to sort out bills, check property etc. is absolute nonsense.. a con more like: illegally holding on to someone else's money.


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    #51
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    mdebets wrote: »
    I have to disagree with you here. Even 4 weeks might be a little bit short. The landlord should keep all/part of the deposit, to cover himself against outstanding utility bills, unless the tenant has closing bills for all the utilities that were in his name.

    I dont rent but this is bullcrap. If the utility bills are in the tennants name firstly regardless of weather they are paid or not has nothing to do with the landlord.

    there is no reason any proper professional landlord would leave utility bills in his or her name.

    deposits should always be returnable on the day unless there is genuine damage in which case i think it reasonable for all to be witheld until the landlord has had the opportunity to price the repair / replacement of said item.


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    #52
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    D3PO wrote: »
    I dont rent but this is bullcrap. If the utility bills are in the tennants name firstly regardless of weather they are paid or not has nothing to do with the landlord.

    there is no reason any proper professional landlord would leave utility bills in his or her name.

    deposits should always be returnable on the day unless there is genuine damage in which case i think it reasonable for all to be witheld until the landlord has had the opportunity to price the repair / replacement of said item.

    I've seen a cases where a utility bill in a tenants name had the outstanding balance transferred to the LL account, when it went unpaid. Also if there's unpaid bill the utility company might refused to set up the property again for another tenant until the balance is paid up.

    Also if a LL has a tenant over staying. If the bill is in the LL they can forget to pay it, and it will get cut off.

    Still it should be a form of a bond held by a 3rd party.


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    #53
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    BostonB wrote: »
    I've seen a cases where a utility bill in a tenants name had the outstanding balance transferred to the LL account, when it went unpaid. Also if there's unpaid bill the utility company might refused to set up the property again for another tenant until the balance is paid up.

    Also if a LL has a tenant over staying. If the bill is in the LL they can forget to pay it, and it will get cut off.

    Still it should be a form of a bond held by a 3rd party.

    i dont believe you have seen cases where a tennants bill has been transfered to a landlords. That is illegal

    A utility company will not refuse to set up a property again for another tennant. its this misinformaition that makes tennants have to wait on their deposit when there is no need at all.


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    #54
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Thats because illegal things don't happen?

    I looked at the bills myself. Luckily it was an oversight by the tenant and they paid the outstanding amount.

    I went into the details of the legality of this in their terms and conditions at the time. I can't find it now.

    But theres been similar experiences before. Sorry for the old link.
    http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=117888


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    #55
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    I have heard of issues where an outstanding ESB bill has meant that a landlord cannot transfer the account back into their own name, but again I ask why couldnt the landlord make a simple phone call on the morning the keys are being handed back to enquire if there are going to be any issues?


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    #56
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Because the LL doesn't have access to the tenants account, they are a 3rd party. ESB won't discuss it with them. The tenant said everything was cleared off. Finally it was through an agent, so the LL only heard about it 2nd hand. It only came to light when a strange amount came up on the LL own MPRN not the rented properties MPRN. So it wasn't discovered till the LL bill came through the door.


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    #57
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    BostonB wrote: »
    Because the LL doesn't have access to the tenants account, they are a 3rd party. ESB won't discuss it with them. The tenant said everything was cleared off. Finally it was through an agent, so the LL only heard about it 2nd hand. It only came to light when a strange amount came up on the LL own MPRN not the rented properties MPRN. So it wasn't discovered till the LL bill came through the door.

    because it would be so hard for the tennant to call the ESB on speaker with the letting agent present.
    Is there no common sense in the world anymore


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    #58
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    BostonB wrote: »
    Because the LL doesn't have access to the tenants account, they are a 3rd party. ESB won't discuss it with them. The tenant said everything was cleared off. Finally it was through an agent, so the LL only heard about it 2nd hand. It only came to light when a strange amount came up on the LL own MPRN not the rented properties MPRN. So it wasn't discovered till the LL bill came through the door.

    A LL cant get details of a debt they will be liable to pay? That doesn't sound right.


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    #59
    mdebets
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭mdebets


    djimi wrote: »
    I have heard of issues where an outstanding ESB bill has meant that a landlord cannot transfer the account back into their own name, but again I ask why couldnt the landlord make a simple phone call on the morning the keys are being handed back to enquire if there are going to be any issues?
    Even if the ESB would be allowed, to give the landlord information about the tenant's account, they wouldn't be able to tell them if everything is settled with the tenant until after they have made the final meter reading (which they can't make until after the the final day of the lease agreement, as otherwise the tenant would either not have electricity for the last day or the landlord would have to pay for it).


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    #60
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    BostonB wrote: »
    Thats because illegal things don't happen?

    I looked at the bills myself. Luckily it was an oversight by the tenant and they paid the outstanding amount.

    I went into the details of the legality of this in their terms and conditions at the time. I can't find it now.

    But theres been similar experiences before. Sorry for the old link.
    http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=117888

    read post #17 in that link. Cant happen and if it does its an ESB oversight and your still not libel. So the point stands no reason not to be able to return deposit the same day especially when any utilities can be contacted at the time of handing back the keys to ensure no overdue bills that the landlord could be lible for.


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    #61
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    D3PO wrote: »
    because it would be so hard for the tennant to call the ESB on speaker with the letting agent present.
    Is there no common sense in the world anymore

    Normally it wouldn't be an issue because...
    D3PO wrote: »
    ...A utility company will not refuse to set up a property again for another tennant. its this misinformaition that makes tennants have to wait on their deposit when there is no need at all.

    The outstanding balance should stay with whomever is account holder.

    You wouldn't expect the ESB to transfer the bill to another account.

    I found where I read this before..

    https://www.electricireland.ie/ei/tcs/terms-and-conditions-re.jsp#t2-pay
    If You have an account with Us at another residential premises, We may transfer any credit or debit between Your accounts in order to recover any money You owe Us. .

    I think there's similar clause for GAIS and ESB.


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