Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Odysseus · 09-02-2013 08:45PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I admire you're work ethic, I truly do, however if you do not like your T&Cs you can always leave...but you'll find the same working conditions in the private sector...I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people who are willing to do your job for less

Not that it would happen, but when a person leaves in most cases that I am aware of the person is not replaced. We have lost 6 staff out of a team of 18 in the last 3 years.

The work increases while our numbers decrease.

woodoo · 09-02-2013 10:13PM

Odysseus wrote: »

Not that it would happen, but when a person leaves in most cases that I am aware of the person is not replaced. We have lost 6 staff out of a team of 18 in the last 3 years.

The work increases while our numbers decrease.

Its very hard to get anyone to give the PS credit for that. We have lost staff too. At the min i can't get on top of my work i'm just hoping for a lull for a while.

The amount of times i read "and the PS remain untouched"...very frustrating.

Silentcorner · 09-02-2013 11:21PM

woodoo wrote: »

Its very hard to get anyone to give the PS credit for that. We have lost staff too. At the min i can't get on top of my work i'm just hoping for a lull for a while.

Probably because nobody in the private sector gets credit (nor sympathy)for the same thing either...

The PS has lost staff because of the employment embargo, the state simply cannot afford to hire staff, spending needs to be reduced it's either staff cuts or pay cuts (if not both) CP1 ensured it was an employment embargo

K-9 · 10-02-2013 12:52AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Probably because nobody in the private sector gets credit (nor sympathy)for the same thing either...

The PS has lost staff because of the employment embargo, the state simply cannot afford to hire staff, spending needs to be reduced it's either staff cuts or pay cuts (if not both) CP1 ensured it was an employment embargo

The state can afford to hire new staff if areas are under pressure, as long as bigger cuts are made in other areas. There are wider issues than profit, cuts and the Troika will sort it out. (They are here 2 years and will wield the sword some time soon, or maybe we've listened to a broken record for too long.)

Jolly Red Giant · 10-02-2013 01:05AM

K-9 wrote: »

The state can afford to hire new staff if areas are under pressure, as long as bigger cuts are made in other areas. There are wider issues than profit, cuts and the Troika will sort it out. (They are here 2 years and will wield the sword some time soon, or maybe we've listened to a broken record for too long.)

How about instead of cutting staff and pay we tax the richest 10% of the population who have increased their wealth by 14% since 2010.

not yet · 10-02-2013 01:13AM

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

How about instead of cutting staff and pay we tax the richest 10% of the population who have increased their wealth by 14% since 2010.

Ah jesus no you couldn't do that,sure they'd all leave the country....

Why not close the country down and come out with our hands up.

Good loser · 10-02-2013 02:03AM

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

How about instead of cutting staff and pay we tax the richest 10% of the population who have increased their wealth by 14% since 2010.

Or confiscate that 14%? We could then increase social welfare, public service pay and cut all other taxes.

road_high · 10-02-2013 02:53AM

Good loser wrote: »

Or confiscate that 14%? We could then increase social welfare, public service pay and cut all other taxes.

Please tell me you are joking, right?

K-9 · 10-02-2013 03:24AM

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

How about instead of cutting staff and pay we tax the richest 10% of the population who have increased their wealth by 14% since 2010.

I doubt many would be in disagreement over that.

We have borrowed laws from Canada than anybody earning over 400k pays an effective 20% rate, forget allowances, reliefs etc., you pay 20% regardless of income or tax reliefs.

We already have the laws in place, the Dept. of Finance has shown ingenuity when it wants, the key to Irish tax isn't the rate, it's the Lax laws dreamed up by the DoF.and exploited by multi-nationals.

Rates are old news, rules are where it is at, and Ireland, depite as much as we knock it, is a world leader at cute hoor tax rules . We're world leaders in nod , nod , wink, wink politics..

We prided ourselves in McSharry getting one over them on the border smuggling rule, we prided ourselves on the 12.5% rule. We'd be British and Maggie Thatcher except we love the spin.

Farmer Pudsey · 10-02-2013 11:28AM

So we are back to the idea that there is a golden goose out there that can be plucked at will. I agree with the idea that over a certain income that there is a minimum set rate of tax like 20%. Also over the next few years all property tax reliefs will fizzle out this will slightly increase effective tax rates. The government plan to cap pension amounts the wealty coporate executives used this to hide income.

However an idea of a supertax on the wealthy that will bring in extra tax income is a silly idea. When you stray over a rate of 50% people will not pay it already we are at an effective rate of 52 and 54% depending if you are an enployee or selfemployed.

It is too easy to for people to relocate and pay taxes elsewhere. The UK has a border ajoining us what is to stop a buisness man relocating into NI having an apartment in Dublin or Galway and commuting two days a week to fullfill the 100 day law as well it would be impossible to police. Internet Technology makes it too easy to operate a buisness from somewhere else in the world even for a small buisness person.

After that you have straight forward Evasion the tempetion for a person handling any sort of cash buisness to just fiddle without putting it trrough the books when he is gaining 30-40% of the money is immense. You also have the issue with that this may involve someone else avoiding VAT. This gives a cost to the exchequer of around 65 cent in the euro.

This equates to a buisnes that where the people owning and working it have a cash flow issue decide to rise prices to protect there own income. In reality there are more likly to lose buisness and then income and increase there problems.

barneystinson · 10-02-2013 12:45PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Probably because nobody in the private sector gets credit (nor sympathy)for the same thing either...

The PS has lost staff because of the employment embargo, the state simply cannot afford to hire staff, spending needs to be reduced it's either staff cuts or pay cuts (if not both) CP1 ensured it was an employment embargo

The recruitment freeze came into effect in late 2008, as an immediate knee jerk when the economy hit the skids. CPA1 didn't arrive for another year and a half.

Silentcorner · 10-02-2013 01:06PM

barneystinson wrote: »

The recruitment freeze came into effect in late 2008, as an immediate knee jerk when the economy hit the skids. CPA1 didn't arrive for another year and a half.

There was also pay cuts before CPA1 but CPA1 enshrined the embargo versus further pay cuts

sean200 · 13-02-2013 05:58PM

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

How about instead of cutting staff and pay we tax the richest 10% of the population who have increased their wealth by 14% since 2010.

FG will not touch the rich but in the next election the rich will not protect FG
FG is in for the same bashing as FF got and as for labour WIPE OUT
So roll on 2016
FG might still be in power but between 20 and 30 of their TD’S will be sacked

road_high · 13-02-2013 07:04PM

sean200 wrote: »

FG will not touch the rich but in the next election the rich will not protect FG
FG is in for the same bashing as FF got and as for labour WIPE OUT
So roll on 2016
FG might still be in power but between 20 and 30 of their TD’S will be sacked

I don't think so. Next year or 18 months or so will tell a lot. The economy has stabilised a lot under them and with last weeks bank deal I can see them working towards a second term. Despite what people say, we are in a better position than pre-deal. The deficit has reduced a lot and in all fairness, the last budget was not all that tough. Despite the bleeding heart Joe Duffy brigade screaming blood murder, a €10 cut to child welfare..please...they are still way in excess of what they get in the UK for example.
As long as the tax side is not further increased and we see some modest progress in employment etc, I will be happy. They started with a bombshell post FF.
There is absolutely no alternative in terms of a government at the moment either.

tayto lover · 13-02-2013 09:28PM

road_high wrote: »

I don't think so. Next year or 18 months or so will tell a lot. The economy has stabilised a lot under them and with last weeks bank deal I can see them working towards a second term. Despite what people say, we are in a better position than pre-deal. The deficit has reduced a lot and in all fairness, the last budget was not all that tough. Despite the bleeding heart Joe Duffy brigade screaming blood murder, a €10 cut to child welfare..please...they are still way in excess of what they get in the UK for example.
As long as the tax side is not further increased and we see some modest progress in employment etc, I will be happy. They started with a bombshell post FF.
There is absolutely no alternative in terms of a government at the moment either.

Comparing to the U.K. again.
Why not compare everything? Doctors etc.

By the way F.G. will be out on their ears in 2016. The death by 1,000 cuts will catch up with them.

Silentcorner · 13-02-2013 09:48PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Comparing to the U.K. again.
Why not compare everything? Doctors etc.

By the way F.G. will be out on their ears in 2016. The death by 1,000 cuts will catch up with them.

Well we have to compare Social welfare rates and PS wages to something right? I mean isn't that what benchmarking is essentially, or supposed to be anyway.

Road high is spot on, the next 12-18 months will be crucial for the government, any improvement will be credited to them, and there is no other alternative, apart from FF(shudder) but there will be riots on the streets if they get back into power IMO

Who would you predict to be in government next?

Farmer Pudsey · 13-02-2013 10:40PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well we have to compare Social welfare rates and PS wages to something right? I mean isn't that what benchmarking is essentially, or supposed to be anyway.

Road high is spot on, the next 12-18 months will be crucial for the government, any improvement will be credited to them, and there is no other alternative, apart from FF(shudder) but there will be riots on the streets if they get back into power IMO

Who would you predict to be in government next?

If the economy recovers FG may well only lose 10 or so seats which would mran that they will have around 65 seats even at 60 they will be in the next government. Cannot see them increasing seats however anything is possible.

No matter what happen Labour get caught in the vice. with SF squeezing from the left and taking seats off them as FF will get the dissasified PS vote how quick they will forget. Independants will get squeezed as well if the economy recovered.

More than likly FG/LAB will have the numbers by themselves other than FG/FF form the next Administration. It is unlikly there will be a Rainbow of FF/SF/socialists,Mick Wallace,Ming,Healy-Rae.

Provided Labour do not end up with less than 20 seats ( not beyond the bounds of possibilties) then it will be as is.

If we have another economic collapse or the recovery fails then it might any result.

tayto lover · 13-02-2013 10:50PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well we have to compare Social welfare rates and PS wages to something right? I mean isn't that what benchmarking is essentially, or supposed to be anyway.

Road high is spot on, the next 12-18 months will be crucial for the government, any improvement will be credited to them, and there is no other alternative, apart from FF(shudder) but there will be riots on the streets if they get back into power IMO

Who would you predict to be in government next?

I agree regarding the lack of alternatives.
Why would anyone want Fianna Fail back? I certainly wouldn't but just look at the opinion polls at the weekend, anything is possible in this mad country.

road_high · 14-02-2013 12:25AM

tayto lover wrote: »

Comparing to the U.K. again.
Why not compare everything? Doctors etc.

By the way F.G. will be out on their ears in 2016. The death by 1,000 cuts will catch up with them.

And replaced by who or what exactly? Some ragbag of far left socialists or FF again..."death by 1,000 cuts", yea right. No thanks. They'd actually gain more votes if they got on with it and cut the public service pay and welfare fully to a realistic level i.e in line with our tax takeand thus reduce the deficit to a sustainable level or below.
Pleased enough with their progress, it's Labour and their beloved state spending and running away from any hard decisions (que weaklings like Roisin Shortall and Colm Keaveney jumping ship because they haven't the balls to do their jobs and make the hard decisions for the long term future of the country). And yet they are the ones getting it in the neck in the polls (if you can read too much into those). The ordianry taxpayer wants reform and value for where their tax euro is going.

Idbatterim · 14-02-2013 01:00AM

I don't think so. Next year or 18 months or so will tell a lot. The economy has stabilised a lot under them and with last weeks bank deal I can see them working towards a second term. Despite what people say, we are in a better position than pre-deal. The deficit has reduced a lot and in all fairness, the last budget was not all that tough. Despite the bleeding heart Joe Duffy brigade screaming blood murder, a €10 cut to child welfare..please...they are still way in excess of what they get in the UK for example.
As long as the tax side is not further increased and we see some modest progress in employment etc, I will be happy. They started with a bombshell post FF.
There is absolutely no alternative in terms of a government at the moment either.

I agree, I think they will be able to sell it that they got a deal, also the budget cuts will be done come the next election. they can say they sailed us safely away from the rocks. Fg will so easily be able to spin it that they took the hard decisions and responsible decisions. The alternatives arent even worth mentioning. Unless a new party forms...

I read about some pole the other day where FF had seen big gains, there are obviously still a lot of people around who think there is an easy way out!

not yet · 14-02-2013 01:14PM

Labour will be smashed in the next election, they will be lucky to hold onto 15 seats. FG will lose 6-10. There is not a chance they will be about to form a government with that loss.

The next government will be FF-SF like it or not. I do believe, be it either by luck or skill that the Labour-FG government have done a good job in slowly, but painfully getting us some way towards stability, but people will not easily forget the harsh cuts that they have implemented.

tayto lover · 14-02-2013 04:23PM

road_high wrote: »

And replaced by who or what exactly? Some ragbag of far left socialists or FF again..."death by 1,000 cuts", yea right. No thanks. They'd actually gain more votes if they got on with it and cut the public service pay and welfare fully to a realistic level i.e in line with our tax takeand thus reduce the deficit to a sustainable level or below.
Pleased enough with their progress, it's Labour and their beloved state spending and running away from any hard decisions (que weaklings like Roisin Shortall and Colm Keaveney jumping ship because they haven't the balls to do their jobs and make the hard decisions for the long term future of the country). And yet they are the ones getting it in the neck in the polls (if you can read too much into those). The ordianry taxpayer wants reform and value for where their tax euro is going.

The ordinary taxpayer, of which I am one, is fed up to the teeth of paying through the teeth. The cuts in Public Services is not making them happy either. Burglaries are way up where I live and the local garda station has been closed. That is not down to wages in the PS either. It's down to our taxes being given away to bondholders, bank manager's pensions and Government expenses. The workers in the PS are not overpaid when you look at their deductions. They are hit the same way as I am. I would never agree with cutting their wages. Most of them are struggling to pay their bills the same as we are. Taking one case and using it to batter a while organisation is just spite.

deise blue · 14-02-2013 04:27PM

not yet wrote: »

Labour will be smashed in the next election, they will be lucky to hold onto 15 seats. FG will lose 6-10. There is not a chance they will be about to form a government with that loss.

The next government will be FF-SF like it or not. I do believe, be it either by luck or skill that the Labour-FG government have done a good job in slowly, but painfully getting us some way towards stability, but people will not easily forget the harsh cuts that they have implemented.

The Labour & FG losses that you forecast would still leave them with a total of 78/82 seats & that should be enough to make them unbackable favourites to form the next Government with the support of a number of independents.

fly_agaric · 15-02-2013 11:11PM

barneystinson wrote: »

Ireland INC is a nonsense, a red herring - countries are not corporations, they aren't run with a profit motive - they raise revenue (through taxes & borrowing) solely in order to spend it, on providing services and stimulating economic growth.

Yes, any wage-slave/PAYE person (most of us I'm sure) who uses the phrase "Ireland Inc." is a useful idiot!

On a Croke Park Deal Mark II, if a large hours increase is on the cards for average public sector worker I see that hitting alot of women/people with kids who are in the sector because they can get more flexibility about hours. Flexible leave etc will be over if you're on a 40-45 hr week full time and areas are short handed due to the recruitment embargo. Not an aspect I've seen highlighted anywhere really [unless earlier in the many pages of this thread which I'm afraid I admit I did not read in full!].

woodoo · 15-02-2013 11:48PM

fly_agaric wrote: »

On a Croke Park Deal Mark II, if a large hours increase is on the cards for average public sector worker I see that hitting alot of women/people with kids who are in the sector because they can get more flexibility about hours. Flexible leave etc will be over if you're on a 40-45 hr week full time and areas are short handed due to the recruitment embargo. Not an aspect I've seen highlighted anywhere really [unless earlier in the many pages of this thread which I'm afraid I admit I did not read in full!].

They are already rowing back on that demand. They will be lucky to get people working 1 extra hour a week.

Silvio.Dante · 16-02-2013 09:10AM

If we can protect increments and add a couple of hours to the working week I can see no justification for the CPSU rejecting a deal...

oscar2 · 16-02-2013 01:37PM

Deal would suit CPSU and Impact,TUI etc as it's staff who work unsocial hours who are being targeted. I reckon I'll lose over 10% of my pay.Yet Kenny threatened a 7% cut overall if deal is rejected.

Someone is being protected here and minority are being sold out.

Silvio.Dante · 16-02-2013 04:11PM

oscar2 wrote: »

Deal would suit CPSU and Impact,TUI etc as it's staff who work unsocial hours who are being targeted. I reckon I'll lose over 10% of my pay.Yet Kenny threatened a 7% cut overall if deal is rejected.

Someone is being protected here and minority are being sold out.

ICTU never did the CPSU any favours so we owe the 'collective' nothing.

This deal is looking better for the low paid, who never got a sniff of the overtime bonanza, more and more...

oscar2 · 16-02-2013 05:06PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

ICTU never did the CPSU any favours so we owe the 'collective' nothing.

This deal is looking better for the low paid, who never got a sniff of the overtime bonanza, more and more...

What's your definition of low paid. I work with people who earn less than 30,000 p.a including shift allowances. Also what overtime bonanza?

Next year they'll come for your pay so a little bit of solidarity might be in your self interest.

sarumite · 16-02-2013 05:20PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

ICTU never did the CPSU any favours so we owe the 'collective' nothing.

This deal is looking better for the low paid, who never got a sniff of the overtime bonanza, more and more...

CPSU members are on the lower end of the payscale, however I personally I wouldn't consider them low paid.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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