"There are many people living in comfort in who do not care about the disadvantaged

Henlars67 · 14-02-2013 02:58AM

There is a significant amount of well off people in Ireland who have a "Let them eat cake" attitude

Smidge · 14-02-2013 03:09AM

Stheno wrote: »

Yes I do, and I'm genuinely posting something from another thread, whether they were trolling or not, such people do the welfare system here a disservice, either by lying on a forum and fomenting dissent amongst those who believe our system is too generous, or by mocking those who are trying to make a living and save a little. It's an easy thread to find it's called saving and is here in AH

I'm not doubting that you read that so no disrespect meant to you.

I agree with what you have said above and tbh it absolutely infuriates me, the attitude of people who feel somewhat superior to those in receipt of SW.

I feel this acutely as a friend of mine is in receipt of sw.

Long story short.
Husband self employed, got horrid disability
Husband not granted disability
She had to apply for JS.
Three children
Four years on(so technically they are what AH's hate, the LONG TERM unemployed)

He cannot work(which in itself has been soul destroying for him as a man and former provider).
She cannot work as he cannot look after the children, home etc.

They have the same commitments as everyone else, heat, food, clothes, mortgage(for which they get no state help as they are no longer paying off interest, only capital).

She had a tenner left last Saturday and was debating, oil tank or car, oil tank or car.

She went up this week to sign on(once a month) and said she never felt as shamed in her whole life.

Can anyone really want to live like this by choice???
Who are the "worthy" in societies opinions to receive SW?

As you rightly say Stheno, it is just dissent fodder.

hames · 14-02-2013 03:26AM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Prices are dropping, competition is rising. One could argue that your dole today will get you more than your dole five years ago. So why the poverty?

That's really badly incorrect; core consumer prices reached an all time high (of all time) in the second half of 2012. As another poster demonstrated, basic food items, which hit those on very low incomes and on social welfare, are some of the most badly hit.

Not to mention the fact that while these costs have increased, social welfare payments have fallen by almost 10% in a few years, in the case of jobseekers payments.

I actually think part of the problem, especially in online content is that some people associate criticism of social welfare spending with belonging to middle class, established society. Rabid defensiveness of private enterprise (as though that were something the rest of us oppose) becomes an identifier for those who self-consciously bleat on about the squeezed middle.

I think that's a fallacious (and a pretty pathetic) association to make, but perhaps it explains the willingness to jump on this factually unjustified bandwagon; je suis de la petite bourgeoisie.

hfallada · 14-02-2013 03:31AM

People who live in comfort have worked hard for it. There is no upper class in Ireland like in the us who have inherited millions in wealth. Most hard working people here pay a large proportion of their income in taxes.

Rather than in the us where the rich pay hardly any taxes and the poor families live in one room in compounds run by the churches because the us government doesn't give them help. Plus if they get seriously sick. They might die as they don't have health insurance. That's struggling. Struggling isn't not bothering to get a education so you can have a job cause you wanna spend your life on welfare.

It sounds like labour are trying to connect with the people that have voted them in. But who they have let down.

Cookie_Monster · 14-02-2013 03:31AM

hames wrote: »

That's really badly incorrect; core consumer prices reached an all time high (of all time) in the second half of 2012. As another poster demonstrated, basic food items, which hit those on very low incomes and on social welfare, are some of the most badly hit.

but the amount of income spent on food in general is still at all time low.
In Ireland only roughly 7.5% for example, go back 50 or 100 or 500 years and it'd be far far higher than that. Food is as cheap as it's ever been.

http://wsm.wsu.edu/researcher/WSMaug11_billions.pdf (little bit out of date in fairness 03-08)
Looking at that chart it's easy to see that poorer 3rd world nations are still caught in the situation of paying huge amounts of income on food in comparison to here were its only a tiny fraction.

hames · 14-02-2013 03:43AM

hfallada wrote: »

People who live in comfort have worked hard for it.

Some times, not all the time. In which case, I'm not sure that it is relevant.

If it is found that a man has not worked hard for his fortune, should his fortune be taken from him? Is he less deserving of it?

If a child's parents are 'layabouts' as some might describe them, should that child suffer for his parents actions?

We are sailing perilously close to a quasi Victorian moral standpoint on "the deserving poor" here.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but the amount of income spent on food in general is still at all time low.

In general, yes; but not in the lowest paid socio economic groups, who spend a disproportionately large portion of their income on basic living costs like food. As we know, these basic costs have themselves risen disproportionately to other costs, eg. luxury goods.

I agree that people are worse off again in 3rd world countries. That's of little comfort to an individual struggling to pay buy food for themselves today in Ireland, however. They won't feed their children on that statistical tidbit.

hames · 14-02-2013 04:03AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

If these are young children then your friend will get getting 277.40 per week in jobseekers.
The husband can't get disability but since he is unemployed then he can claim job seekers too so that's 402.20 per week just for jobseekers, he gets dependants rate.

For three children the weekly child benefit amount will be 98.70 per week.

Then there is family income supplement which is 60% of the difference between 703 euro and 402.20 euro. Child benefit is not counted as income.
This gives 180.48 for FIS

why are they getting FIS and Jobseekers/ IQA simultaneously in your calculation?

mikemac1 · 14-02-2013 04:08AM

Massive fail on my part

I thought FIS was for all but it seems it's for working people.

I need to check these figures again, post deleted until then

Still works out as 492.20 euro per week I believe between jobseekers and child benefit.
Smidge says they are both long term unemployed so the husband gets IQA rate

Smidge · 14-02-2013 04:12AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

If these are young children then your friend will get getting 277.40 per week in jobseekers.
The husband can't get disability but since he is unemployed then he can claim job seekers too so that's 402.20 per week just for jobseekers, he gets dependants rate.

For three children the weekly child benefit amount will be 90 per week.

Then there is family income supplement which is 60% of the difference between 703 euro and 402.20 euro. Child benefit is not counted as income.
This gives 180.48 for FIS

Two adults not working with 3 children and they are getting 672.68 euro for the family.
Yes it won't pay the mortgage but welfare has never been designed for that, they will have to sort that out with their bank.

Small family and they will have lots of bills for sure but then so do the rest of us as you say, under 700 euro per week is not ungenerous from the State.
There are working families in low paid jobs who don't earn that much in a week.
So maybe working people do look at the long term unemployed and wonder.

All figures from here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie

I have absolutely no idea how you came to that figure.
Her rate is= 188
His is =124.80
3 children = 89.40
Total = 402.20

I can tell you that they are not getting FIS!!!

Have no idea where you came up with your figures considering you seem to have used citizens information

You are having a laugh saying they get six hundred odd euro a week, check CI again and then contact SW, see what you would be exactly be entitled to.

Very disingenuous post.

Also another reason I don't usually get involved in these threads(apart from blood pressure!) do you really think families GET this kind of money you posted and yet others work???

mikemac1 · 14-02-2013 04:13AM

Mistake made on the FIS, mistake corrected before you quoted me

I can do no more

mikemac1 · 14-02-2013 04:20AM

Smidge wrote: »

Four years on(so technically they are what AH's hate, the LONG TERM unemployed)

No hate in my post

hames · 14-02-2013 04:22AM

They are at about 50% of what they could be earning if they both worked in minimum wage jobs.

In my opinion, this is a very low wage, but it balances well with the core objectives of the Republic; i.e. to meet the minimum and core needs of all of the children of the state, whilst still incentivising work.

Harsh for the parents, but hopefully the children don't feel it too badly.

I have nothing but sympathy for their situation as parents caught up in a mess that they did not make.

Nobody can take comfort in that sort of figure, I would say.

Smidge · 14-02-2013 04:25AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Mistake made on the FIS, mistake corrected before you quoted me

I can do no more

Look Mike, not having a pop at you but their mortgage is 170 per week(not a big mortgage by anyone ones standard) but that leaves them with 232 to pay everything!!!

Shopping for 5 is at a very minimum 100
That leaves 132 for everything else, oil, phone,electric, school(and believe me its every week they are looking for a fiver here, two euro there)bins, water, internet, clothes, transport, house maintenance, I could go on and on.

Smidge · 14-02-2013 04:27AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

No hate in my post

But surely you can understand given your mistake, how mistakes about SW recipients are regularly given as standard???

hames · 14-02-2013 04:29AM

I know Smidge, but what are they doing in that mortgage?

That couple, being LT unemployed, on that income, clearly need to be in local authority housing.

mikemac1 · 14-02-2013 04:34AM

Smidge wrote: »

But surely you can understand given your mistake, how mistakes about SW recipients are regularly given as standard???

Many different schemes out there, it's hard to know them all. People claiming may not even know what they are entitled to.

I see something called family income supplement and think it's for families like your friend but in the article it seems it's not. So why the name? I don't know.

I'm happy to be corrected and yeah I can see how stories and myths of people on vast sums begin.

RUSTEDCORE · 14-02-2013 05:06AM

people dont really care about others...they pretend to out of fear or to get things they want.

The rich neither fear or require anything from the poor {AT Least nothing that the poor are not more willing to exchange for}

Lou.m · 14-02-2013 07:24AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

That was a line from a speech from Eamon quiv in the Dail the other day. He was talking about the poverty of children from poor areas in Ireland and the lack of caring about these conditions. Do people from well off backgrounds have a clue what people born into disadvantaged areas have to go through? I not sure I agree with Eamon 100% but from reading some of the posts of some luckier people on boards I dont think they get that not everyone has it as easy as they do. Is there an apathy amongst some of the well off towards the poor in this country?

It's worse than that some actively despise them. Not all of course but some. Or they will simplify it . When mummy and Daddy pay for luxuries they fool themselves into thinking they did it alone. Those who make it rich from poverty never forget, my father made it from nothing. He would be offended if i did not care about those who are from a poor background or was a snob. But really i have no experience of poverty i sympathize but i would not know how to help unfortunately.

People actively avoid the poor and discriminate against them. They are suspicions of them not all well off feel this way but some.

Lou.m · 14-02-2013 07:36AM

And lots of people have inherited money in Ireland for generations..some of them are lovely people ..I will inherit (not millions or anything but it will make a huge diff to my life and living standard)

Plus in Ireland all middle class kids go to Uni paid by the state (Incl me)..people have said for years that would be better spent on better secondary schooling for disadvantaged areas.

Yep there is a lot of self entitlement in the upper classes and this is the very trait we accuse the poor of.

jank · 14-02-2013 09:09AM

“Charity degrades those who receive it and hardens those who dispense it.”

The poor in Ireland are much better off than those of previous generations and more definately better off than the real poor in places like South America, Africa and Asia. Its just that welfare over time has made people feel entitled to a standard of living that can be sustained by the average industrial wage. That was not what social welfare was created for.

It was to stop people diying of hunger or ending up in poor houses. Not to pay for Sky TV and a load of pints or fags.
People arent dying of hunger in Ireland, nor are they dying of easily curable diseases like many in the world. A poor person in Ireland still has a quality of life that is superior than 90%+ of the worlds population. Its just people lose perspective of this fact. A lot of it has to do with living in a modern meterocracy.

tritium · 14-02-2013 10:27AM

Maybe Eamonn could start by defining living in comfort and disadvantaged?

The way I see it, the group who are consistently being asked to contribute are the ones who have very little left after they pay a large negative equity mortgage, or expensive childcare, or put overpriced petrol into the car for a two hour commute to work.

Strangely they don't get an allowance to come to work, or havent benefited from unvouched expenses. They don't claim three pensions while still of working age either. Many of them have a future of permanent debt. Theyre the new poor and frankly many of them are on the breadline.

So yes there are a large number of people living on comfort who do not care about the disadvantaged. Many of them do or have inhabited the gravy train that is the Irish political and crony class. And the reason they don't care about disadvantage is they have no concept whatsoever of who disadvantage affects in this country. They really believe that you can just siphon a bit more from the struggling classes and put it in a mismanaged, unaccountable fund to be used to buy votes. And because the struggling classes are killing themselves just to make ends meet, they'll continue to get away with it, because the David beggs and Peter mcverry's of this world also don't see or don't care about this section of society.

14-02-2013 10:27AM

carlmango11 wrote: »

I think a lot of Irish people have started to become quite bitter towards those in receipt of many social welfare payments.

In these hard economic times people can't help but be enraged by the seemingly endless tales of friends and family who seem to have everything handed to them by the Government while others are working 9-5 struggling to get by. I know someone who was offered a job in IKEA and would have ended up earning €4 more per week if they took the job than to stay at home on their welfare payments. There needs to be an incentive to work for what you have. The Government is sending out a message to one half of the country that they don't need to work and telling the other half that anything they do earn will be taken from them to pay the non-workers.

Middle-class people's taxes are being raised to pay single mothers to live with their boyfriends in social housing. Middle-class people's taxes are being used to buy 13-kid families €230,000 5-bed houses in Donegal. We have a right to be annoyed by this.

What of Working-class people's taxes, do they not count?

14-02-2013 10:40AM

To answer you would have to define ..care about...and then ask why should any one care about anyone else who is not related to them.

I do think we should care about what is happening in disadvantaged sections of society but how we..care about it..or what individuals or society can do is a huge question.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 14-02-2013 12:09PM

"There are many people living in comfort in who do not care about the disadvantaged"

First off all, It's a bit rich that Eamon would give such a speech given his involvement with FF's destruction of the country.

On the question posed, I'd imagine that there are a very small number of people that couldn't care less about the disadvantaged; and not all those people are the super rich. I know a guy on the dole and he parks in disabled spots; he just doesn't care.

I think the majority of people in the country want a state that assists the needy and the disadvantaged.
But there are those who prey on the system, who abuse the system, and milk the system; all to the detriment of those who are deserving cases.

I don't know how many people are now living in comfort. Even if someone is on €100K, they may have a huge mortgage that strips them of the majority of that money.

Bruce7 · 14-02-2013 01:21PM

I think it should be made mandatory to quote your PPS number when applying for a job. And it should be mandatory for employers to mail a list of all the PPS numbers who applied for work to the Dept of Social Protection every week / month, so they could cross check them against the records of those claiming social welfare to see if they are actually applying for work.

It should also be mandatory for employers to mail a list of PPS numbers of people who were offered jobs and how much salary they were offered to the dept every week / month, so they can check to see if they are accepting job offers.

The administrative overhead on the employers' end would be extremely low; they would just have to maintain two lists of numbers, and send the occasional email. The 'technology' required to implement this in the department could be lashed together in no time. A simple excel macro or access database would do the job.

I have plenty of sympathy for the disadvantaged, by the way, and I believe in the welfare state, even though I pay a lot of tax every year. But the option of deliberately choosing to do nothing because it pays more needs to be taken away.

Ray Palmer · 14-02-2013 03:07PM

Ok so I care what difference does that make? Do I want pay more tax? No
I paid 25k in tax last year and passed on a further 20k in vat. One household on my road took that tax in benefits plus more. That does include the cost of administrating that money.
As for ppsn being used on job applications, ridiculous! Lots of places won't confirm they got your cv or tell you your application was unsuccessful. You also don't want your number easily accessible to random strangers.

ilovesleep · 14-02-2013 04:29PM

I wasn't born into a disadvantaged area but grew up with disadadvantaged circumstances. My dad when living at home provided very little money to my mom for us and the running of the household. My mom who was a stay at home mom. My dad used to drink a lot and come home and fight. He left the household eventually. By right he should have paid maintenance but he never did and mom couldn't chase him for money because he was violent.

So we grew up in a one parent household with a mam on social welfare. Things were not easy. I remember having holy shoes. Bread and butter and a cheese slice in between for lunch. No variety which got sickly. There were many a time when mam couldn't heat the house. But things were easier back then compared to nowdays because when we were old enough we got summer work to help out and some of us (5 of us altogether) kept a part time job throughout school. Our house started falling in but we never had the money for repairs which made a small problem much, much worse due to ignoring it and putting it on the long finger. It was only years after college that we were all on our feet and working away that we were able to all save and chip in for house improvements.

There was a married couple living on our road and still are, he a teacher and her a nurse who constantly looked down on us. Not with words or anything. Just the look on her face when she saw us. She looked down on us as if we were scum and dispised us and although she never said anything to us, we knew. For what reason, we do not know but I reckon it was because of our dad leaving us and then we were beneath them as citizens because they were employed as a teacher and nurse.
The good news here in the end is that most of her kids are now shacked up with huge celtic tiger mortgages where as here we grew up and knew not to get into huge debts and are relatively free.

So on to another topic, reading on boards and even politics.ie, there are many who look down on others - sure we all partied and it's time now to suck it up and stop buying a new car every year or two and stop going away on yearly holidays. As if I and many more led a lifestyle like that and have the privalage of a car and a holiday to cut back on. Patronizing.

In relation to the thread title: There are many people living in comfort who look down on the disadvantagedand the op, I'd say from my own experience and also reading here in boards there are many people who do that. I think it's very ignorant of some people to bicker about those in disadvantaged when for the most part it is a system somewhere eg social welfare that is at fault. For example 'a huge family with loads of kids don't have to work because of the sw they receive'. It is the system at fault and the parents popping out 10+ kids. The rewards each child with more when it should be the opposite.

Annasopra · 14-02-2013 04:39PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

That was a line from a speech from Eamon quiv in the Dail the other day. He was talking about the poverty of children from poor areas in Ireland and the lack of caring about these conditions. Do people from well off backgrounds have a clue what people born into disadvantaged areas have to go through? I not sure I agree with Eamon 100% but from reading some of the posts of some luckier people on boards I dont think they get that not everyone has it as easy as they do. Is there an apathy amongst some of the well off towards the poor in this country?

Read AH daily - it's much more than apathy - it's outright hostility

Dyr · 14-02-2013 04:44PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Honestly, how much more do you want the state to do before people start looking after themselves? Nobody likes seeing their fellow citizens in squalor, but with the amounts that go out on welfare/social housing/childrens benefit/med cards etc, the only possible conclusion - should someone be forced to go without certain necessities - is that the money is being misspent by the parent.

What would you do, Eddy?

I'm pretty sure most of the privileged people in this country didn't get there by dragging themselves up by the bootstraps. They were born into their current status. Just like most of those who live in poverty.

if people were born into a roughly equitable society then you might have a point.

Sleepy · 14-02-2013 05:12PM

Of the people I know who've made the effort to educate themselves, I can think of only 2 out of work at the moment (and doubt they'll be that way for long tbh). Even those I know that did apprenticeships or studied hobby subjects at third level are working, albeit not all for great money or in areas they enjoy but they're paying their way in life

What does that say? Am I living in a bubble? Do I only tend to associate with those whose parents raised them rather than dragging them up?

There are hard cases, yes. But let's be realistic. 2008 was FIVE years ago. If you haven't been able to find any kind of employment, start a business or upskill yourself to make yourself employable in that time, what the **** were you at tbh?

People who make good life decisions tend to have nicer lives than those who didn't. That's fair imo. Many seem to be expected to provide those who made poor life choices with similar lifestyles to their own. While there are very few people in this world I'd happily watch starve (and being realistic, I can't ever see Bertie Ahern or his ilk ever being in that situation), it is galling to see so much of your earnings disappear when you see how poorly it's being spent: whether on over-paid public "servants", overly generous welfare payments, parish pump politics and TD's vanity projects.

Yes, there are problems with the system. There are cracks that a small minority fall through (though anyone with positive equity in their family home wouldn't be in those numbers imo: ownership of one's home is not an entitlement) but doesn't it stand to reason that fixing the main problems (the bloated welfare rates, raft of entitlements and social acceptance of welfare fraud) might free up some cash to help the genuine hard-luck cases?

"There are many people living in comfort in who do not care about the disadvantaged

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