No such thing as road tax.

Phill Ewinn · 12-02-2013 12:37PM

Can we introduce an A55HOLE tax? Most cyclists own cars. It's only a minority of drivers who treat cyclists with contempt

Guy:Incognito · 12-02-2013 12:47PM

smash wrote: »

There used to be. That's why people still get confused.

It's not. Its because the UK have road tax and people just assume thats what it is here.

It's perpetuated by the likes of manufacturers calling it road tax.

Spook_ie wrote: »

2nd edit in relation to someone pedanticly refering RFL as motor tax

It's not pedantry. Using road fund licence is as wrong as using Road tax. Road fund licence is what the Uk has. Motor tax doesnt have any other names.

Iwannahurl · 12-02-2013 12:57PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's not. Its because the UK have road tax and people just assume thats what it is here.

The UK has not had a "road tax" for 75 years.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/nov/22/cycling-road-tax-confused

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 01:15PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's not. Its because the UK have road tax and people just assume thats what it is here.

It's perpetuated by the likes of manufacturers calling it road tax.

It's not pedantry. Using road fund licence is as wrong as using Road tax. Road fund licence is what the Uk has. Motor tax doesnt have any other names.

I was going to try and avoid this thread but whatever...

It's a motor tax that is only applicable if the vehicle is used on a road therefore that's why people often refer to it as a road tax. If the motor tax was to be paid/due regardless of if the vehicle is used on a road or not then the name motor tax would be accurate, however, as it stands it's a tax that is misnamed.

Now the question becomes, why is the name motor tax used instead of the correct name of road tax?

Hijpo · 12-02-2013 01:21PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There's already a 21%, er, "safety tax".

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/10/25/00079.asp

Not enough?

Nope

corktina wrote: »

spelling Nazi surely...

Sorry, natsee????

Iwannahurl · 12-02-2013 01:22PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

I was going to try and avoid this thread but whatever...

It's a motor tax that is only applicable if the vehicle is used on a road therefore that's why people often refer to it as a road tax. If the motor tax was to be paid/due regardless of if the vehicle is used on a road or not then the name motor tax would be accurate, however, as it stands it's a tax that is misnamed.

Now the question becomes, why is the name motor tax used instead of the correct name of road tax?

It's a tax on the use of motorised vehicles, which is why it's called Motor Tax.

No confusion there. The government policy is clear.

I pay Motor Tax on my car, even though it sits in the driveway >95% of the time. I don't get any rebate, btw.

El Horseboxo · 12-02-2013 01:34PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's a tax on the use of motorised vehicles, which is why it's called Motor Tax.

No confusion there. The government policy is clear.

I pay Motor Tax on my car, even though it sits in the driveway >95% of the time. I don't get any rebate, btw.

But for the approx 5% you have it on the road you need tax. I still have a car I have not sold back in Ireland. It's in storage. It has no tax disc the past few years because it has been off the road 100%. I can go back and get into the car. Start it up and operate any of it's functions without moving it out onto public roads and have no need to pay tax. So how can I use a motorized vehicle in one circumstance and not require tax but I need it in another situation. The other situation requiring it's operation on public roads. I never thought of It like that before but I'd agree that it is a wrongly named tax.

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 01:37PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's a tax on the use of motorised vehicles, which is why it's called Motor Tax.

No confusion there. The government policy is clear.

I pay Motor Tax on my car, even though it sits in the driveway >95% of the time. I don't get any rebate, btw.

Correct you get no rebate if it's used on the road, therefore it's a tax for the use of the road, NOT a tax for owning a motor.

The tax for owning a motor would probably be the VAT, seeing (in theory) you could have a vehicle that was unregistered and therefore not have paid VRT

seamus · 12-02-2013 01:38PM

smash wrote: »

There used to be. That's why people still get confused.

There used to be...in the 1930s, in the UK.

There has never been road tax in Ireland.

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 01:44PM

seamus wrote: »

There used to be...in the 1930s, in the UK.

There has never been road tax in Ireland.

Just because it's not ring fenced for use on updating/maintaining the road networks doesn't preclude it from being a road tax, if a vehicle isn't used on the road network it isn't liable for Motor tax so defacto it is indeed a road tax

gibraltar · 12-02-2013 01:45PM

Hijpo wrote: »

perhaps a 30% levy applied to cycling accessories would do the job.

Good idea, tax cycling and discourage it, fill the roads with even more cars because we dont spend enough time stuck in traffic as it is.

McTigs · 12-02-2013 01:46PM

For those who think cyclists should pay a "road Tax", how would you compute it?

The motor tax on my 1.4 ltr petrol car is €381 per annum, what should my bike be taxed at and why?

ThreeLineWhip · 12-02-2013 01:47PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

AGENDA:

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-

-

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AOB

We all know your real intent. How is Gay Byrne?

seamus · 12-02-2013 01:51PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

if a vehicle isn't used on the road network it isn't liable for Motor tax

Incorrect. Any vehicle used in a public place is required to display a valid motor tax. A public place is any place which a member of the public has access to by way of right or permission. "Public place" includes a lot of places which are not part of the road network, but motor tax is required anyway.

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 01:53PM

gibraltar wrote: »

Good idea, tax cycling and discourage it, fill the roads with even more cars because we dont spend enough time stuck in traffic as it is.

Actually a very good idea, proceeds if ring fenced, could then be used to bring in a scheme similar to the UK's and USA's Bikeability training ( replaced the old cycling proficiency test )

Guy:Incognito · 12-02-2013 01:57PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Now the question becomes, why is the name motor tax used instead of the correct name of road tax?

To stop stupid people starting or contributing threads with the line "I pay road tax and the roads are I bits

Hijpo · 12-02-2013 01:57PM

gibraltar wrote: »

Good idea, tax cycling and discourage it, fill the roads with even more cars because we dont spend enough time stuck in traffic as it is.

Theres a tax on toilet paper, does that discourge anyone from wiping there arse?

If you want to do something/need to do something, you will pay for it. Everyone always has and everyone always will.

Water will soon be charged for, will everyone start drinking from puddles and washing at the beach instead of turning on a tap?

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 01:59PM

seamus wrote: »

Incorrect. Any vehicle used in a public place is required to display a valid motor tax. A public place is any place which a member of the public has access to by way of right or permission. "Public place" includes a lot of places which are not part of the road network, but motor tax is required anyway.

Examples please?

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 02:00PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

To stop stupid people starting or contributing threads with the line "I pay road tax and the roads are I bits

Or likewise cyclists saying there is no such thing as road tax

seamus · 12-02-2013 02:00PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Examples please?

A shopping centre car park. A private estate which does not have gates.

To give some non-road examples - if you were to drive along the path in a public park, ignoring whether that's legal, the vehicle would need to be taxed, insured and NCTed.

Guy:Incognito · 12-02-2013 02:00PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Just because it's not ring fenced for use on updating/maintaining the road networks doesn't preclude it from being a road tax, if a vehicle isn't used on the road network it isn't liable for Motor tax so defacto it is indeed a road tax

No. It would be public place tax then because it has to be taxed to be in a public place. Doesn't necessarily have to be am actual road.

Edit. Seamus got there first.

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 02:10PM

Motor tax

Motor Tax is collected by Dublin City Council on behalf of the Department of the Environment & Local Government. This revenue is used for building and repairing roads in Dublin City.

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/MotorTax/pages/motortaxhome.aspx

Pipe and smoke it come to mind

seamus · 12-02-2013 02:14PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/MotorTax/pages/motortaxhome.aspx

Pipe and smoke it come to mind

What Dublin City Council's website says and what the facts are, are two different things.

Motor tax is not ringfenced for road building. Primarily because the cost of road building exceeds the money brought in through motor tax.

If the motor tax income exceeded the cost of maintaining the roads, do you think that they would hold this money in a sinking fund for next year or do you think they'd use it on other costs?

Of course, they would use it on other costs. Therefore, it it not ringfenced, and it is just tax.

No matter what way you want to try and argue this, you're onto a loser. Nowhere in any legal document, policy document, or financial instrument, is motor tax flagged as "for use in road building/maintenance only".

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 02:15PM

seamus wrote: »

A shopping centre car park. A private estate which does not have gates.

To give some non-road examples - if you were to drive along the path in a public park, ignoring whether that's legal, the vehicle would need to be taxed, insured and NCTed.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No. It would be public place tax then because it has to be taxed to be in a public place. Doesn't necessarily have to be am actual road.

Edit. Seamus got there first.

If you say so, however, I'd be willing to take it to court if I received a ticket on a vehicle that was on a shopping center car park for no motor tax.

Assuming that

a the vehicle was taxed and insured whilst being driven there

b the motor tax had expired whilst the vehicle was in the car park and insurance was still valid

Perhaps you can point me to the relevant SI's that relate to the use of vehicles without motor tax, the search terms I'm using at the moment is not exactly giving me the results I'd expect

Spook_ie · 12-02-2013 02:17PM

seamus wrote: »

What Dublin City Council's website says and what the facts are, are two different things.

Motor tax is not ringfenced for road building. Primarily because the cost of road building exceeds the money brought in through motor tax.

If the motor tax income exceeded the cost of maintaining the roads, do you think that they would hold this money in a sinking fund for next year or do you think they'd use it on other costs?

Of course, they would use it on other costs. Therefore, it it not ringfenced, and it is just tax.

No matter what way you want to try and argue this, you're onto a loser. Nowhere in any legal document, policy document, or financial instrument, is motor tax flagged as "for use in road building/maintenance only".

I expect you to be on the phone to DCC then, until that time it's an official statement on an official site and despite protestations from the cycling fraternity says that the motor tax is used for the upkeep of DCC roads. Perhaps because of this is why the roads are actually in bits!

gibraltar · 12-02-2013 02:23PM

Hijpo wrote: »

Theres a tax on toilet paper, does that discourge anyone from wiping there arse?

Yes and if someone said lets increase that tax by 30% so people dont wipe their backsides as often so that the sewage system is used less, it would be equally as stupid as saying that adding another 30% tax on cycling accessories, as was suggested, would help with the issue of "road tax".

seamus · 12-02-2013 02:25PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

I expect you to be on the phone to DCC then, until that time it's an official statement on an official site and despite protestations from the cycling fraternity says that the motor tax is used for the upkeep of DCC roads. Perhaps because of this is why the roads are actually in bits!

"Official statement on an official site" is meaningless.

The constitution says that all money collected as taxation is placed in a single pot unless the law says otherwise.

The burden is on you to show that motor tax is exempt from this. An uncorroborated statement on a website is not evidence of anything.

gibraltar · 12-02-2013 02:30PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Actually a very good idea, proceeds if ring fenced, could then be used to bring in a scheme similar to the UK's and USA's Bikeability training ( replaced the old cycling proficiency test )

I agree Bikeability training would be good, but financing a scheme to make safer cyclists by adding 30% to the cost of cycling accessories (weather to try and price them off the roads or not) is a bad idea, what would be next a seatbelt tax to with proceeds used to tackle people not using seatbelts.

seamus · 12-02-2013 02:34PM

Just to clarify Spook, Article 11 of the Irish Constitution states that

All revenues of the State from whatever source arising shall, subject to such exception as may be provided by law, form one fund, and shall be appropriated for the purposes and in the manner and subject to the charges and liabilities determined and imposed by law.

In order for you to prove that motor tax is ringfenced for the roads, you will need to present the law which ringfences it.

A glib line on the DCC website is not a law.

Guy:Incognito · 12-02-2013 02:38PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

If you say so, however, I'd be willing to take it to court if I received a ticket on a vehicle that was on a shopping center car park for no motor tax.

1Q. When must I pay motor tax?
1A. Liability for motor tax arises when a vehicle is used in a public place/road

No such thing as road tax.

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