Laws Question? Ask here!

awec · 04-02-2013 01:58PM

On Saturday before our first try Gilroy ran down the wing and when he got near the touchline he threw the ball back in field. We lost possession at this point.

Frankie said something in the commentary that the Welsh player (Jones I think) just threw his hands at the ball with no intention to catch it and that it could have been a penalty to us?

Is this illegal? Do you have to intend to always catch the ball if you go for it? E.g. You can't swing an arm at the ball to push it into touch to intercept a pass?

.ak · 04-02-2013 02:03PM

awec wrote: »

Is this illegal? Do you have to intend to always catch the ball if you go for it? E.g. You can't swing an arm at the ball to push it into touch to intercept a pass?

You've answered that yourself really. If you're trying to intercept you must try to intercept! :P If you just smack the ball down in mid-flight it's a penalty, and often a yellow if it looks to be the last pass in scoring a try.

who_me · 04-02-2013 02:07PM

awec wrote: »

On Saturday before our first try Gilroy ran down the wing and when he got near the touchline he threw the ball back in field. We lost possession at this point.

Frankie said something in the commentary that the Welsh player (Jones I think) just threw his hands at the ball with no intention to catch it and that it could have been a penalty to us?

Is this illegal? Do you have to intend to always catch the ball if you go for it? E.g. You can't swing an arm at the ball to push it into touch to intercept a pass?

A deliberate knock-on is a penalty; though obviously there's a massive grey area over what's a deliberate attempt to catch the ball and what's knocking the ball on deliberately. Generally if you knock the ball downwards you're in trouble, and if you go for it one-handed you're at risk of being pinged.

Also, in the above case, even deliberately knocking it backwards into touch (so not a knock-on) would be a penalty.

davidpfitz · 04-02-2013 02:21PM

who_me wrote: »

A deliberate knock-on is a penalty; though obviously there's a massive grey area over what's a deliberate attempt to catch the ball and what's knocking the ball on deliberately. Generally if you knock the ball downwards you're in trouble, and if you go for it one-handed you're at risk of being pinged.

Also, in the above case, even deliberately knocking it backwards into touch (so not a knock-on) would be a penalty.

Tommy Bowe found that one out the hard way against New Zealand. Knocked the ball out backwards near his line - penalty try and yellow card given.

daveharnett · 07-02-2013 02:33AM

tolosenc wrote: »

1. Did he actually play himself off side?
2. Isn't there something about not being allowed to kick the ball with you heel unless you're the hooker at a scrum?

1. No. I can see a couple of lines of reasoning that might lead one to wonder about it, but no.

2. Kicking with the heel isn't strictly a 'kick' in law (it won't work for restarts/free kicks/kicks at goal/penalties, all of which have to be 'proper' kicks) but in open play the distinction doesn't matter.

daveharnett · 07-02-2013 02:50AM

Treadhead wrote: »

Can someone clarify the rules on stamping for me? Fair enough on the ref not seeing Sexton getting a boot in the face, but I'm sure I saw a lot of kicks and stamps going into players on the floor in front of him.

A certain amount of "collateral damage" is accepted in a genuine attempt to free the ball, but stamping or raking a player with the boot is illegal, deliberate or otherwise.

Poite's approach on Saturday was more permissive than most international refs, which to my mind allowed the game to heat up unnecessarily. To my mind a penalty on the first instance could have prevented a whole lot of niggle and bad temper throughout the rest of the game.

pickarooney · 09-02-2013 10:51PM

What exactly is the procedure for deciding who wears what colours when there's a clash? I can't make any sense of Italy's change to blue shorts today against Scotland.

castie · 10-02-2013 11:59AM

pickarooney wrote: »

What exactly is the procedure for deciding who wears what colours when there's a clash? I can't make any sense of Italy's change to blue shorts today against Scotland.

Home team has priority

locum-motion · 10-02-2013 10:29PM

castie wrote: »

Home team has priority

Actually, in international rugby, it's usually the exact opposite; usually the home team changes if there's a clash. Hence Ireland have recently worn both white and black jerseys when playing South Africa (green) in Lansdowne Road.

castie · 11-02-2013 07:16AM

locum-motion wrote: »

Actually, in international rugby, it's usually the exact opposite; usually the home team changes if there's a clash. Hence Ireland have recently worn both white and black jerseys when playing South Africa (green) in Lansdowne Road.

I thought the white against SA was a special event of some sort?

Italy wear white when they play away to Scot or Fra though?

pickarooney · 11-02-2013 07:26AM

castie wrote: »

I thought the white against SA was a special event of some sort?

Italy wear white when they play away to Scot or Fra though?

So did Italy decide to wear blue shorts and tell Scotland to do the same? It seems a very amateur approach to something so basically important

castie · 11-02-2013 07:34AM

pickarooney wrote: »

So did Italy decide to wear blue shorts and tell Scotland to do the same? It seems a very amateur approach to something so basically important

Id like to check 2 years ago and see what was worn.
Could be a simple problem of their white kit has blue shorts now and ref didnt like it.

Would not think it was done on purpose.

castie · 11-02-2013 07:36AM

castie wrote: »

Italy wear white when they play away to Scot or Fra though?

Googled some match clips.
I'm 100% wrong here.

pickarooney · 11-02-2013 07:41AM

castie wrote: »

Id like to check 2 years ago and see what was worn.
ould be a simple problem of their white kit has blue shorts now and ref didnt like it.

Would not think it was done on purpose.

I don't it was myself but it's amazing to think there's no simple ruling out basic communication given that a clash off some kind us inevitable between these teams each year.

castie · 11-02-2013 07:51AM

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't it was myself but it's amazing to think there's no simple ruling out basic communication given that a clash off some kind us inevitable between these teams each year.

Have a look at the youtube clips from 2011 and see if theres a difference between that and the kits they tried to start with.

Might just have been the ref!
I havent seen any of this years game.

locum-motion · 11-02-2013 12:01PM

castie wrote: »

I thought the white against SA was a special event of some sort?...

Actually no. If I remember correctly, when it was a special occasion (the first match in the new Lansdowne Road stadium), Ireland wore green. Because it was a historic occasion, the usual etiquette wasn't observed.

tolosenc · 11-02-2013 12:06PM

Bit of a contrived scenario, but anyway:

If a kicker was taking a conversion from right out by the touch line, and at the moment of striking the ball, his plant foot was in contact with the touch line, would the conversion count (presuming it went between the posts and above the bar)?

.ak · 11-02-2013 12:19PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Bit of a contrived scenario, but anyway:

If a kicker was taking a conversion from right out by the touch line, and at the moment of striking the ball, his plant foot was in contact with the touch line, would the conversion count (presuming it went between the posts and above the bar)?

Don't a lot of kickers take their kicks from outside the touch line? I don't think the touchline comes into it when taking conversions. Could be wrong, but I thought Halfpenny took one outside the touchline on Saturday?

Theta · 11-02-2013 12:21PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Bit of a contrived scenario, but anyway:

If a kicker was taking a conversion from right out by the touch line, and at the moment of striking the ball, his plant foot was in contact with the touch line, would the conversion count (presuming it went between the posts and above the bar)?

The ball isn't in play when a conversion is been taken so it doesn't count. The ball remains in play from a penalty but not conversions.

locum-motion · 11-02-2013 03:49PM

.ak wrote: »

Don't a lot of kickers take their kicks from outside the touch line? I don't think the touchline comes into it when taking conversions. Could be wrong, but I thought Halfpenny took one outside the touchline on Saturday?

Why would any kicker take a kick from outside the touchline? A conversion can't be, because it has to be taken in line with where the try was scored and a try can't be scored outside the touch-in-goal line. Also, a penalty can't be awarded off the pitch either.

.ak · 11-02-2013 03:58PM

locum-motion wrote: »

Why would any kicker take a kick from outside the touchline? A conversion can't be, because it has to be taken in line with where the try was scored and a try can't be scored outside the touch-in-goal line. Also, a penalty can't be awarded off the pitch either.

I'm talking about where the kicker stands, not the ball. The OP asked if a player could step out of touch when taking a conversion; and they regularly do, that's the point I was making.

Losty Dublin · 11-02-2013 04:36PM

locum-motion wrote: »

Why would any kicker take a kick from outside the touchline? A conversion can't be, because it has to be taken in line with where the try was scored and a try can't be scored outside the touch-in-goal line. Also, a penalty can't be awarded off the pitch either.

The law regarding touch and being out of play applies only to players who are carrying the ball. A player may have a foot in touch and is entitled to kick (or hit) a ball in the field of play so the result of the scenario mentioned by tolosenc is to play on as normal.

A penalty may be awarded outside of the pitch. Remember, substitutes are under the referees control, as is anybody within the playing enclosure so the referee is entitled to apply game law to them if required.

.ak · 11-02-2013 04:39PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A penalty may be awarded outside of the pitch. Remember, substitutes are under the referees control, as is anybody within the playing enclosure so the referee is entitled to apply game law to them if required.

That's interesting one. Last time I remember somebody getting penalized off the pitch was in a HEC game last season, a player in the sin bin chucked the ball out of play and Rolland issued a red card and sent him off.

Where was the penalty for that awarded?

Podge_irl · 11-02-2013 04:41PM

.ak wrote: »

That's interesting one. Last time I remember somebody getting penalized off the pitch was in a HEC game last season, a player in the sin bin chucked the ball out of play and Rolland issued a red card and sent him off.

Where was the penalty for that awarded?

He had already warned them not to do it after the first time too. Braindead stuff - though I think it was a sub. Don't recall them playing with 14 men afterwards.

tolosenc · 11-02-2013 04:43PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

He had already warned them not to do it after the first time too. Braindead stuff - though I think it was a sub. Don't recall them playing with 14 men afterwards.

Was it not a water boy?

Podge_irl · 11-02-2013 04:49PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Was it not a water boy?

I thought it was the physio actually, but I might be getting confused between the first time Rollers admonished them and the time someone was actually sent off.

Losty Dublin · 11-02-2013 05:00PM

.ak wrote: »

That's interesting one. Last time I remember somebody getting penalized off the pitch was in a HEC game last season, a player in the sin bin chucked the ball out of play and Rolland issued a red card and sent him off.

Where was the penalty for that awarded?

I recall that it happened in a RFU League game as well whereby a coach did likewise to prevent a quick throw. He did it a second time and was red carded; I'll try find the incident when I get home. In the case of interfering with a quick throw, the penalty will be on the 15 metre line. In the case of an incident occuring off field that warrants the referee to intervene then the game recommences with a penalty from wherever the game stopped last.

Theta · 11-02-2013 05:21PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I thought it was the physio actually, but I might be getting confused between the first time Rollers admonished them and the time someone was actually sent off.

Quins of all people!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywQUgfOjZCM

locum-motion · 11-02-2013 10:53PM

.ak wrote: »

I'm talking about where the kicker stands, not the ball. The OP asked if a player could step out of touch when taking a conversion; and they regularly do, that's the point I was making.

Sorry, misunderstood you.

Clareman · 11-02-2013 11:39PM

For "normal" matches, it would be up to the home team to change, the understanding being that they would have easier access to alternative jerseys. For HEC or International games, the kits have to be approved by the organisers of the competition in advance of the games, they'll normally discuss it with the the TV companies broadcasting the games as well, competitions will normally have their own rules as to who wears the alternative jersey. Munster had to get a new "third" jersey this year when playing Saracens, which shows that in the HEC the away team changes.

Laws Question? Ask here!

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