Laws Question? Ask here!

Stheno · 25-01-2013 09:03PM

Deano7788 wrote: »

Irish Qualified and Non-Irish Qualified.:)

Thanks

In another thread there was talk of there being a limited amount of NIQ players allowed play for the provinces, how does that work?

Deano7788 · 25-01-2013 09:15PM

Stheno wrote: »

Thanks In another thread there was talk of there being a limited amount of NIQ players allowed play for the provinces, how does that work?

Now it's getting complicated. It's an IRFU rule. Currently, each province is allowed 4 NIQ's plus 1 project player, who is an NIQ but hasn't been capped so can become eligible for Ireland under residency after 3 years, like Strauss did this year. They can be in any position.The IRFU plan to change that next season where there can only be 1 NIQ between Leinster, Ulster and Munster in each position (Connacht are immune from this), e.g. Pienaar is an NIQ scrum half so Munster and Leinster can't bring one in. They haven't really said how it's going to work exactly yet.

Stheno · 25-01-2013 09:22PM

Deano7788 wrote: »

Now it's getting complicated. It's an IRFU rule. Currently, each province is allowed 4 NIQ's plus 1 project player, who is an NIQ but hasn't been capped so can become eligible for Ireland under residency after 3 years, like Strauss did this year. They can be in any position.The IRFU plan to change that next season where there can only be 1 NIQ between Leinster, Ulster and Munster in each position (Connacht are immune from this), e.g. Pienaar is an NIQ scrum half so Munster and Leinster can't bring one in. They haven't really said how it's going to work exactly yet.

Thanks for your patience you've explained that really nicely thanks

So essentially the three stronger provinces from next year will be allowed have no more than essentially 15 players between them who are not IQ, one in each position, with no duplication.

Is the intent here to increase the pool of IQ players in the provinces in all positions/enable the emergence of IQ players from the academies/try to eliminate weaknesses in the national squad, e.g. Prop etc?

Hope that makes sense.

Deano7788 · 25-01-2013 09:28PM

Stheno wrote: »

Thanks for your patience you've explained that really nicely thanks

So essentially the three stronger provinces from next year will be allowed have no more than essentially 15 players between them who are not IQ, one in each position, with no duplication.

Is the intent here to increase the pool of IQ players in the provinces in all positions/enable the emergence of IQ players from the academies/try to eliminate weaknesses in the national squad, e.g. Prop etc?

Hope that makes sense.

Yeah that's pretty much it and essentially the prop situation brought it about.

Stheno · 25-01-2013 09:39PM

Deano7788 wrote: »

Yeah that's pretty much it and essentially the prop situation brought it about.

Thanks again, appreciate the patience

pickarooney · 25-01-2013 09:49PM

So do Afoa and Botha get to draw straws or who gets to keep his job?

Deano7788 · 25-01-2013 09:55PM

pickarooney wrote: »

So do Afoa and Botha get to draw straws or who gets to keep his job?

Botha's apparently going to Toulon so that won't be a problem.

tolosenc · 02-02-2013 04:39PM

Regarding THAT Zebo play earlier:

1. Did he actually play himself off side?
2. Isn't there something about not being allowed to kick the ball with you heel unless you're the hooker at a scrum?

Arguments flying back and forth here...

pickarooney · 02-02-2013 04:45PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Regarding THAT Zebo play earlier:

1. ctually play himself off side?
2. Isn't there something about not being allowed to kick the ball with you heel unless you're the hooker at a scrum?

Arguments flying back and forth here...

I don't see how - he wasn't in front of himself! Good luck to the referee trying to distinguish between a heel and ankle at that speed and distance

tolosenc · 02-02-2013 04:48PM

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't see how - he wasn't in front of himself! Good luck to the referee trying to distinguish between a heel and ankle at that speed and distance

I guess the argument we're having here boils down to whether it's the ball or the kicker of the ball that sets the offside line.

I'm still not sure whether it was his heel or not, even in slo mo, but am I right about that being the rule?

BeardySi · 02-02-2013 04:50PM

Can someone clarify the rules on stamping for me? Fair enough on the ref not seeing Sexton getting a boot in the face, but I'm sure I saw a lot of kicks and stamps going into players on the floor in front of him.

pickarooney · 02-02-2013 04:56PM

tolosenc wrote: »

I guess the argument we're having here boils down to whether it's the ball or the kicker of the ball that sets the offside line.

I'm still not sure whether it was his heel or not, even in slo mo, but am I right about that being the rule?

Either way, his foot was level with the ball at worst. Although maybe if any off your body is in front of it you're offside. It would be an awful call to make. I know only the hooker can heel in the scrum but never heard it apply to open play

locum-motion · 02-02-2013 04:56PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Regarding THAT Zebo play earlier:

1. Did he actually play himself off side?
2. Isn't there something about not being allowed to kick the ball with you heel unless you're the hooker at a scrum?

Arguments flying back and forth here...

Law 7 includes the phrase "A player may throw it or kick it".
No mention there about heels, ankles, toes or insteps.
Mind you, I didn't read the WHOLE book just now, so maybe it says it elsewhere.
I don't think it does, though.

Shelflife · 02-02-2013 04:58PM

the defending players have to put their feet somewhere, if you are lying on the wrong side, (and lets face it its very rare that a player gets into a position that they didnt want to be in or cant get out of) then you have to accept that you may get stood on.

alot of the "stamping" that people see is the scrum half trying to release the ball from the ruck area.

Losty Dublin · 02-02-2013 07:40PM

Shelflife wrote: »

the defending players have to put their feet somewhere, if you are lying on the wrong side, (and lets face it its very rare that a player gets into a position that they didnt want to be in or cant get out of) then you have to accept that you may get stood on.

alot of the "stamping" that people see is the scrum half trying to release the ball from the ruck area.

To add to this excellent observation, the consensus is that if the foot is being solely used to work the ball out and in a toe towards ground motion then it is fine. Anything else is illegal. Using the sole of a foot or using your foot on a player not near the ball should end with a penalty and a card. Look at 5 and 6 in here and they are fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7mvkYVRcfc

Black 6, in this second clip, on the other hand is illegal. The footage is very clear and shows clearly what not to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci8pxxKX3Bs

locum-motion · 03-02-2013 01:58AM

You've put in the same clip twice there.

What year was that?

Losty Dublin wrote: »

To add to this excellent observation, the consensus is that if the foot is being solely used to work the ball out and in a toe towards ground motion then it is fine. Anything else is illegal. Using the sole of a foot or using your foot on a player not near the ball should end with a penalty and a card. Look at 5 and 6 in here and they are fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7mvkYVRcfc

Black 6, in this second clip, on the other hand is illegal. The footage is very clear and shows clearly what not to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7mvkYVRcfc

who_me · 03-02-2013 02:01AM

tolosenc wrote: »

Regarding THAT Zebo play earlier:

1. Did he actually play himself off side?
2. Isn't there something about not being allowed to kick the ball with you heel unless you're the hooker at a scrum?

Arguments flying back and forth here...

Not sure how you could play yourself offside

But I thought I remembered some rule like that - a heel not being counted as a kick. If there was such a rule it's either ignored or gone; I seem to remember Geordan Murphy doing a pretty flamboyant backheel grubber kick which was obvious to see but wasn't penalised.

davidpfitz · 03-02-2013 07:43PM

tolosenc wrote: »

I guess the argument we're having here boils down to whether it's the ball or the kicker of the ball that sets the offside line.

I'm still not sure whether it was his heel or not, even in slo mo, but am I right about that being the rule?

It doesn't matter - hitting the ball with your foot is not a kick, as defined in the laws of the game:

Kick: A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

There's no reference in the laws to now being allowed to hit the ball with your heel, so so if the ball was on the ground, and you hit it down the pitch facing your own try line with your heel, players in front of you from your own team may not be considered offside!

davidpfitz · 03-02-2013 07:46PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Regarding THAT Zebo play earlier:

1. Did he actually play himself off side?
2. Isn't there something about not being allowed to kick the ball with you heel unless you're the hooker at a scrum?

Arguments flying back and forth here...

Not just the hooker - anyone in the front row. Law 20 (definition of a scrum):

A scrum is formed in the field of play when eight players from each team, bound together in three rows for each team, close up with their opponents so that the heads of the front rows are interlocked. This creates a tunnel into which a scrum half throws in the ball so that front row players can compete for possession by hooking the ball with either of their feet.

Losty Dublin · 03-02-2013 09:24PM

locum-motion wrote: »

You've put in the same clip twice there.

What year was that?

Thanks for that, man. Only getting on now so I've edited it accordingly

castie · 03-02-2013 11:51PM

For offside you must be in front of the kicker.
Since you cannot be in front of yourself then its a non issue.

locum-motion · 04-02-2013 01:39AM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Thanks for that, man. Only getting on now so I've edited it accordingly

I was looking at that second clip and thinking "There's nothing wrong with that, his foot is on the ground beside the opposing player; he's not stamping at all."
Then Black 6 lifted his left foot and stood on a guys head.
"Ah, there it is!" said I.

Sundy · 04-02-2013 01:57AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The second example is one thats been used by teams I've played on. It's been used by other teams for years and is perfectly legit.

2) Mauls. This is where its extremely useful and I brought it to England with me. After a lineout just back away from the opposition. They walk the maul forward while sending the ball to the back. When the ball is at the back somebody makes a call and two defenders run arround the maul and go straight for the ball. Or else the ref blows for accidental offside if you're lucky and he's particularly clued in.

Thats illegal and you should be penalised for leaving the lineout before it is over.
You cant just step out of a lineout.

castie · 04-02-2013 07:41AM

Sundy wrote: »

Thats illegal and you should be penalised for leaving the lineout before it is over.
You cant just step out of a lineout.

Technically not.
However to combat this...

The catcher and "ripper" will keep the ball with the catcher so that he is the first person to make contact.

As soon as opposition engage the then maul the ball is shuffled back.
After that they must keep the maul up and if they disengage Im not 100% but I would tend to allow play on (offside still possible) and force them to re-engage the maul as is seen at most professional levels.

Had a mostly local team do this in a league game in Hong Kong that I was playing.
Ref was completely fine as long as the ball carrier was not being protected from in front.

Note: As far as I am aware people can leave the line-out all they want once the ball travels over their head. Otherwise some of these looping moves (NZ try in WC) would be considered leaving the line-out before its ended.

Sundy · 04-02-2013 08:08AM

castie wrote: »

Technically not.

Note: As far as I am aware people can leave the line-out all they want once the ball travels over their head. Otherwise some of these looping moves (NZ try in WC) would be considered leaving the line-out before its ended.

Nope thats covered in the laws by allowing a player to peel away

Sundy · 04-02-2013 08:18AM

Sundy wrote: »

Thats illegal and you should be penalised for leaving the lineout before it is over.
You cant just step out of a lineout.

Actually its quite a complicated one. All depends on pretty perfect timing. But im pretty sure the ref could ping you alot of the time for not maintaining the 1m gap.

castie · 04-02-2013 11:06AM

Sundy wrote: »

Nope thats covered in the laws by allowing a player to peel away

can you show where?
Just to highlight what the laws say is "peel"

Downtime · 04-02-2013 11:22AM

castie wrote: »

can you show where?
Just to highlight what the laws say is "peel"

Law 19.10 (i) When the ball has been thrown beyond a player in the lineout, that player may move to the space between the touchline and the 5-metre line. If the player moves into that space the player must not move towards that player’s goal line before the lineout ends, except in a peeling off movement.

Losty Dublin · 04-02-2013 11:23AM

locum-motion wrote: »

I was looking at that second clip and thinking "There's nothing wrong with that, his foot is on the ground beside the opposing player; he's not stamping at all."
Then Black 6 lifted his left foot and stood on a guys head.
"Ah, there it is!" said I.

That's what happens when it's dinner time; you get distracted

castie · 04-02-2013 11:30AM

Downtime wrote: »

Law 19.10 (i) When the ball has been thrown beyond a player in the lineout, that player may move to the space between the touchline and the 5-metre line. If the player moves into that space the player must not move towards that player’s goal line before the lineout ends, except in a peeling off movement.

Yes but that does not stop a player moving towards their own goal line.

It says they cant move towards the opposition line except in a peeling off motion. (which is the ball carrier...)

Laws Question? Ask here!

Comments