Supporting the Troops

MadsL · 08-02-2013 02:47AM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

One thing I will say about the Americans is that it's all bullshit.

They practually invented the suing culture, mad gun laws and New York is known for being one of the biggest "fuck you" places in the world. Yet they place their hand on their heart, officially come off as "one" when it comes to good ol' a'merica!

What a load of crap :pac:

Because New York is exactly the same as the rest of the US, right?

As for being a fuck you place, firstly New York has changed a good bit since 9/11, New Yorkers actually talk to each other now; secondly I'd rather a New Yorker as a neighbour than some gombeen who wouldn't cross the street to piss on you if you were in fire. Americans, generally speaking, are amongst the most neighbourly people in the world. Frankly far more so than the Irish in my experience.

I'd also remind you that "compo" culture is alive and well in Ireland.

As for gun laws, feel free to come and debate that on the other (six) thread(s) - you might learn something.

B.A._Baracus · 08-02-2013 02:56AM

MadsL wrote: »

Because New York is exactly the same as the rest of the US, right?

As for being a fuck you place, firstly New York has changed a good bit since 9/11, New Yorkers actually talk to each other now; secondly I'd rather a New Yorker as a neighbour than some gombeen who wouldn't cross the street to piss on you if you were in fire. Americans, generally speaking, are amongst the most neighbourly people in the world. Frankly far more so than the Irish in my experience.

I'd also remind you that "compo" culture is alive and well in Ireland.

As for gun laws, feel free to come and debate that on the other (six) thread(s) - you might learn something.

Or perhaps you should understand what I was saying

Life is dog eat dog. It's sad. But it's the way it is. So on one hand you have this attitude of "fuck you, it's all about me, i'll step over you" (which is human behaviour lets be honest. Aint just the yanks)

But then on the other hand you have people coming together, placing their hand on their heart, saying america is the best place to live, it's about unity, fighting together as one ... etc ....

So where does the actual truth lie

So instead of telling me to go off and learn things. perhaps you should open your eyes and see things for what they really are

humbert · 08-02-2013 03:08AM

If it's repeated widely enough and often enough, most people, will believe anything.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2013 03:55AM

Augmerson wrote: »

50 cent was wearing a Marines' uniform, the picture was up on Facebook, and this guy who was in the Marines wrote onto his page, giving out. He was fairly livid, really giving it loads, "how dare you wear that uniform, I know you never served in my corps" etc. The post had lots of likes and comments from people who seemed to have family in the military backing the guy up or were in the military or had been.

Did you ever see the film The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance ?

James Stewart is portrayed as someone who isn't a great warrior and John Wayne as someone who is.

In reality Stewart started as a private and ended up as a Brigadier General in the USAF, got some medals in WWII, was even on a B52 during Vietnam.

John Wayne (or to give him his full military title Marion Morrison) didn't serve, but stared in a lot of rebel rousing films and had right wing opinions.

When people listen to the hawks who haven't been in harms way then there is a problem.

The neo-cons created Afghanistan and Bin Laden when they flooded money and weapons there during the Russian occupation. They sowed the wind and others reaped the whirlwind. They dealt with the Iranians to fund weapons for Central America. You could argue that they propped up the regime and created the movements responsible for changing that part of the world from a secular muslim society like Turkey to places where women have less rights than they did 50 years ago in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It's gotten to the state where they might as well bring back the old system where if you were conscripted you could get someone to take your place. This was fair,especially if you were rich enough to hire someone to do it and at least it's out in the open.

If you read the book Flyboys it mentions George Bush in passing. He was lucky not to have been eaten by the Japanese during WWII. Junior on the other hand....

mikemac1 · 08-02-2013 04:04AM

mathepac wrote: »

The Americans haven't won a war since 1945 - not the war on drugs, Vietnam, poverty, illegal immigration, world hunger, obesity at home - nothing; they are losers and have been for generations.

Well how can they lose if they never entered?

They have not declared war on anyone since WWII.

As for your war on obesity you must think the Irish nation are losers too as we're on the way to losing that

humbert · 08-02-2013 04:08AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Well how can they lose if they never entered?

They have not declared war on anyone since WWII.

As for your war on obesity you must think the Irish nation are losers too as we're on the way to losing that

They've engaged (i.e., entered) in wars without having declared war.

StinkyMunkey · 08-02-2013 06:10AM

Augmerson wrote: »

I've been thinking about this for a few days now. I was on Facebook one night, and an American friend was talking to me about how there was a photo of the rapper 50 cent that a lot of people were pissed off about. Apparently, in this photo, 50 cent was wearing a Marines' uniform, the picture was up on Facebook, and this guy who was in the Marines wrote onto his page, giving out. He was fairly livid, really giving it loads, "how dare you wear that uniform, I know you never served in my corps" etc. The post had lots of likes and comments from people who seemed to have family in the military backing the guy up or were in the military or had been.

Some of it got kind of carried away, but anyway, it made me think about how the US armed forces are seen in American society. How can people be so pro-military, even when those forces serve in unjust wars like Iraq? Is it because of the fallout from the Vietnam war, when returning veterans were shunned from having served in such an unpopular conflict? Is it because so many Americans have family and friends in the US forces? Is it because they see the military as defending US values and freedoms?

It seems to me, if you join the military, it doesn't make you particularly brave or heroic. It's a tough, demanding job which can cost you your life but you have very little say about that at times. If you were against an invasion of a country, you'd still have to participate. Sometimes you will have to do very questionable things. Why do some societies glorify the military?

[and before anyone takes offence, I'm not against anybody serving in the military, it's your choice]

Guess I won't be going to a fancy dress party in the states dressed as a marine, I'd probably be lynched. Who cares what he dresses up as!

crockholm · 08-02-2013 08:36AM

I lived in an area of the U.S. that had a high percentage of veterans and current millitary personnel, black flags were hung outside the houses where there had been a fatality,and people were respectful to the families of the soldiers,whether they agreed with the casus belli or not,I often had a beer with marines/army lads, and to be honest,if the sh!t ever hit the fan,I would much prefer one of those lads to be in my corner that some whiney nasal peacenik,the like that can be found on this thread.

U.S.A.-warrior culture
Boards.ie-keyboard warrior culture

Leftist · 08-02-2013 09:29AM

trained killers voluntarily enlisting in war. Their country isn't under any threat and they are going to fight in a war that can never be won on the other side of the planet where innocent people are killed in the warzone they created.

laoch na mona · 08-02-2013 10:36AM

crockholm wrote: »

I lived in an area of the U.S. that had a high percentage of veterans and current millitary personnel, black flags were hung outside the houses where there had been a fatality,and people were respectful to the families of the soldiers,whether they agreed with the casus belli or not,I often had a beer with marines/army lads, and to be honest,if the sh!t ever hit the fan,I would much prefer one of those lads to be in my corner that some whiney nasal peacenik,the like that can be found on this thread.

U.S.A.-warrior culture
Boards.ie-keyboard warrior culture

nothing wrong with being respectful but only a fool would blindly support "the troops" which is basically what the government calls supporting illegal war and human rights abuses. They say support the troops and all the "patriots agree"

ps I'm not a whiny peacenik who is hopeless in a scrap I'm just anti-imperialist

crockholm · 08-02-2013 10:43AM

laoch na mona wrote: »

nothing wrong with being respectful but only a fool would blindly support "the troops" which is basically what the government calls supporting illegal war and human rights abuses. They say support the troops and all the "patriots agree"

ps I'm not a whiny peacenik who is hopeless in a scrap I'm just anti-imperialist

I don't doubt your pugilistic prowess,we're not goin to duke it out on the cobbles over this;)
When Irishmen and women of the armed services are deployed here or overseas,I will wish them well and to come back home safely.

The American public,by and large want the same.

Riddle101 · 08-02-2013 10:52AM

Leftist wrote: »

trained killers voluntarily enlisting in war

You mean people who joined the military to serve their country. Also to bring up them as being nothing more then trainied killers is ignorant. Everyone knows the duty they have when they join an army. Doesn't matter what country they're from, whether it be the US or even Ireland, all soldiers are sworn to serve.

Do you look down on the soldiers who fought in WWII as well?

Their country isn't under any threat and they are going to fight in a war that can never be won on the other side of the planet where innocent people are killed in the warzone they created.

Their country was attacked at 9/11, which means they were under threat and they went to Afghanistan over it. Personally if I was an American who watched a lot of my countrymen die at 9/11, I'd want the same thing. As for the killing of innocent people, well unfortunetely casualties happen in war. Do you expect a war to go without any consequences?

Leftist · 08-02-2013 11:04AM

Riddle101 wrote: »

You mean people who joined the military to serve their country. Also to bring up them as being nothing more then trainied killers is ignorant. Everyone knows the duty they have when they join an army. Doesn't matter what country they're from, whether it be the US or even Ireland, all soldiers are sworn to serve.

Do you look down on the soldiers who fought in WWII as well?

yes because the iraq and afghanistan wars were the same as ww2

Riddle101 wrote: »

Their country was attacked at 9/11, which means they were under threat and they went to Afghanistan over it. Personally if I was an American who watched a lot of my countrymen die at 9/11, I'd want the same thing. As for the killing of innocent people, well unfortunetely casualties happen in war. Do you expect a war to go without any consequences?

Maybe you could expect them not to invade countries they don't need to invade?

plenty of people volunteered to join the army after the invasion of iraq, and they still do. Anyone suggesting they are 'protecting america' by fighting in afghanistan in 2013 or even at least the last 6 years is just deluded.

laoch na mona · 08-02-2013 11:50AM

Riddle101 wrote: »

Do you look down on the soldiers who fought in WWII as well?

I pity anyone who gets sent to war I can't imagine a worse hell

Their country was attacked at 9/11, [/QUOTE]

so they have permission to run roughshod through two nations?

If invading a country in response to international terrorist actions who arn't linked to any government is ok then why didn't we invade Britain or they invade us during the troubles?

anyone who thinks the war has any justification should watch the videos Bradley manning leaked

Grand Moff Tarkin · 08-02-2013 11:58AM

It is all about the oil boys and girls and to be honest i feel it is better to have the oil in the hands of the Americans than anyone else.

opinionated3 · 08-02-2013 12:01PM

Bradley manning is just a pen pushing coward. Shoot him at dawn....

Irishcrx · 08-02-2013 12:03PM

The US is huge and always has been on propaganda, brainwashing. Support the troops etc etc it's cringworthy at times but it's engrained in th US as a culture, be a war hero , family proud of you. They've even intergrated into computer games you just can't get away from it, TV , Radio , Celebrity's showing their support. Unfortuneatly a lot of these wars they are fighting are for the wrong reasons and on the grand scheme of thing's they are just pawns.

Go and die for your country , kill people because there evil. No thanks I've only one life I'm afraid and I want to live it.

shanered · 08-02-2013 12:13PM

Signing up an army is turn supporting the current and future governments forgein policy and descisions.
I understand its a job, but its not the only option, id love to join an army but dont trust the governments running them so will not be joining.
Its important not to join a organisation that has questionable motives, otherwise you'll become "part of the problem".
So it doesnt make you an automatic hero to join in my opinion.

krudler · 08-02-2013 12:21PM

DylanII wrote: »

Great but Americans dont join the army with the expectation of helping with natural disasters. They are expecting to go and destroy some foreign country.

You know not everyone in the military is just there to kill people right? what about doctors, people looking to get further education? there's a wealth of military careers that don't revolve around being a frontline soldier.

Leftist · 08-02-2013 12:30PM

part of the reason they treat the soldiers with such distinction is due to their guilt over how they treated the vietnam vets.

It's also from the huge surge of propoganda around the time of 2003 and the government's active lionisation of the troops in order
to push up recruitment drives.

It's basically marketing and who else is easier to sell to than americans.

laoch na mona · 08-02-2013 01:22PM

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

It is all about the oil boys and girls and to be honest i feel it is better to have the oil in the hands of the Americans than anyone else.

so sending the poor to die to rob others of potential prosperity is ok?

mathepac · 08-02-2013 01:30PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Well how can they lose if they never entered?

They have not declared war on anyone since WWII. ...

Yo, well spotted, dawg!! Which means that every war they have fought since then has been illegal and every soldier who has fought in those wars has broken US laws. Under US military law a serving soldier is obliged to decline to obey an illegal order from a superior. In an undeclared war all orders issued down the chain of command are illegal. In the US only Congress can declare war. So the US has had criminals on active service in the military for decades, which is appropriate given that the biggest criminal / puppet of all sits in the White House, mouthing PR slogans.

mikemac1 wrote: »

... As for your war on obesity you must think the Irish nation are losers too as we're on the way to losing that

A very stupid comment. Try not to use words out of context, as context is everything.

But thanks for confirming for all the posters the illegality of all US military actions since WWII; it sounds so much more convincing coming from you. "Thank you so much" as O'Bombah might say.

old hippy · 08-02-2013 01:41PM

DylanII wrote: »

Great but Americans dont join the army with the expectation of helping with natural disasters. They are expecting to go and destroy some foreign country.

My grandad joined WW2, asfaik, because he felt it was his duty. To protect America. Now, maybe he swallowed the patriotism hype but (right or wrong) he did what he thought was best. Yes, that's often at the expense of other people but I don't think he joined to "destroy" any foreign countries.

Riddle101 · 08-02-2013 02:09PM

Leftist wrote: »

yes because the iraq and afghanistan wars were the same as ww2

I didn't say they were the same. But your attitude gave the impression that you look down on american soldiers, because to you they're trained killers voluntarily fighting a war. The soldiers who fought in WWII were also voluntarily fighting a war also. Do you look down on them?

plenty of people volunteered to join the army after the invasion of iraq, and they still do. Anyone suggesting they are 'protecting america' by fighting in afghanistan in 2013 or even at least the last 6 years is just deluded.

People join the military to serve their country. Plenty of people volunteered to join the army before Iraq or 9/11, and plenty of soldiers will do so forever because that's the way things are. I don't look down on any soldier who serve in the US military because I see them as doing their jobs and serving their country. They didn't start the war, but if they have to serve their country, then they will because that's what they swore to do. Just like if Ireland ever got into a war(In the unlikely case), our soldiers would do the same too.

laoch na mona wrote: »

Their country was attacked at 9/11,

so they have permission to run roughshod through two nations?

As far as I can see, 9/11 was going to lead to a war whether we like it or not. People in America were outraged about what happened. and they wanted vengence. Do you think the US government was just going to ignore what happened and brush it under the rug. No they weren't. They wanted Bin Laden's head, which lead to the US going to Afghanistan.

As for Iraq, well would you rather have Saddam Hussein still around today, and in power over in Iraq?

If invading a country in response to international terrorist actions who arn't linked to any government is ok then why didn't we invade Britain or they invade us during the troubles?

To be honest we got lucky, because Britain might just have invaded us. Especially if Margret Thatcher had been killed when the IRA attempted to kill her. My point being, i'm sure Britain did have plans to invade us at some point during the troubles. Let's just be happy they never went through with them.

anyone who thinks the war has any justification should watch the videos Bradley manning leaked

Nobody likes war, but we live in a world that has been made and changed by wars. War is apart of this world. The difference is perspective.

Shenshen · 08-02-2013 02:39PM

krudler wrote: »

You know not everyone in the military is just there to kill people right? what about doctors, people looking to get further education? there's a wealth of military careers that don't revolve around being a frontline soldier.

True, certainly.
But personally, I cannot get away from the fact that at its heart, every army on the planet is there for one reason - to kill people. Be that people in another army invading the territory of the first army, be it people in another country which the government of the first army regards as a threat for whatever reason.
An army is there to kill people at the command of its leaders (who may or may not take their orders from a government, which in itself may or may not be democratically elected).

And while a lot of people join armies hoping to never, ever being involved in such goings on, it doesn't change the fact that they receive money so that if the situation arises, they can kill or assist in killing other people. People they don't even know. For reasons they may or may not understand.

I cannot bring myself to see this as anything positive.

08-02-2013 02:43PM

Freedom isn't free :pac:

Riddle101 · 08-02-2013 02:57PM

Shenshen wrote: »

True, certainly.
But personally, I cannot get away from the fact that at its heart, every army on the planet is there for one reason - to kill people. Be that people in another army invading the territory of the first army, be it people in another country which the government of the first army regards as a threat for whatever reason.
An army is there to kill people at the command of its leaders (who may or may not take their orders from a government, which in itself may or may not be democratically elected).

And while a lot of people join armies hoping to never, ever being involved in such goings on, it doesn't change the fact that they receive money so that if the situation arises, they can kill or assist in killing other people. People they don't even know. For reasons they may or may not understand.

I cannot bring myself to see this as anything positive.

That's the world for you. It's not a happy thing to know, but that's how things are. It's been apart of human nature since humans first came.

Shenshen · 08-02-2013 02:59PM

Riddle101 wrote: »

That's the world for you. It's not a happy thing to know, but that's how things are. It's been apart of human nature since humans first came.

No, certainly.

But I'm certainly not going to support it, and I can't help finding people who do a little... well, let's say I'd keep my distance.

Leftist · 08-02-2013 03:43PM

Riddle101 wrote: »

I didn't say they were the same. But your attitude gave the impression that you look down on american soldiers, because to you they're trained killers voluntarily fighting a war. The soldiers who fought in WWII were also voluntarily fighting a war also. Do you look down on them?

People join the military to serve their country. Plenty of people volunteered to join the army before Iraq or 9/11, and plenty of soldiers will do so forever because that's the way things are. I don't look down on any soldier who serve in the US military because I see them as doing their jobs and serving their country. They didn't start the war, but if they have to serve their country, then they will because that's what they swore to do. Just like if Ireland ever got into a war(In the unlikely case), our soldiers would do the same too.
.

looking down

I don't agree with the lionisation and idolisation of people who volunteer to be trained to kill and take part in occupations of countries half way round the planet.

They have a choice to put themselves in that position. 'Serving your country' isn't a catch all, moral excuse.

There are people out there that volunteer to become involved in all sorts of dangerous conflicts. If you choose to do it when it really didn't need to be done then you have yourself to blame. Couldn't care less if it's american, irish or anyone. Nationality doesn't define it.

Augmerson · 08-02-2013 04:02PM

I wonder in the future will they even need troops when they have things like Predator drones? Those machines will only get more sophisticated as time goes by.

I don't think a country has to declare a state of war against another to be engaged in a conflict with that country, in a context of international politics and guidelines. I do know that Korea was a "police action" (whatever that boils down to). With Vietnam, I don't know. It started out as technical assistance and advisers, and just kept getting ramped up and up.

After Vietnam, there was Grenada, Panama, Iraq. Iraq was a UN coalition. Grenada and Panama .... I don't know the full story.

Supporting the Troops

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