Supporting the Troops

Augmerson · 07-02-2013 11:44PM #1

I've been thinking about this for a few days now. I was on Facebook one night, and an American friend was talking to me about how there was a photo of the rapper 50 cent that a lot of people were pissed off about. Apparently, in this photo, 50 cent was wearing a Marines' uniform, the picture was up on Facebook, and this guy who was in the Marines wrote onto his page, giving out. He was fairly livid, really giving it loads, "how dare you wear that uniform, I know you never served in my corps" etc. The post had lots of likes and comments from people who seemed to have family in the military backing the guy up or were in the military or had been.

Some of it got kind of carried away, but anyway, it made me think about how the US armed forces are seen in American society. How can people be so pro-military, even when those forces serve in unjust wars like Iraq? Is it because of the fallout from the Vietnam war, when returning veterans were shunned from having served in such an unpopular conflict? Is it because so many Americans have family and friends in the US forces? Is it because they see the military as defending US values and freedoms?

It seems to me, if you join the military, it doesn't make you particularly brave or heroic. It's a tough, demanding job which can cost you your life but you have very little say about that at times. If you were against an invasion of a country, you'd still have to participate. Sometimes you will have to do very questionable things. Why do some societies glorify the military?

[and before anyone takes offence, I'm not against anybody serving in the military, it's your choice]

Banjo String · 07-02-2013 11:46PM

To look hard, you gotta don a Navy uniform tbh.

smash · 07-02-2013 11:47PM

The US military and it's supporters are a different breed.

doulikeit · 07-02-2013 11:48PM

Its a job simple

Sugar Free · 07-02-2013 11:50PM

Augmerson wrote: »

Some of it got kind of carried away, but anyway, it made me think about how the US armed forces are seen in American society. How can people be so pro-military, even when those forces serve in unjust wars like Iraq? Is it because of the fallout from the Vietnam war, when returning veterans were shunned from having served in such an unpopular conflict?

You have to remember that they (the military personnel) don't get a choice in where they are sent.

I would see it as supporting the men and women who do that job and serve their country, rather than supporting the government which makes the decision to engage in a conflict.

El Guapo! · 07-02-2013 11:54PM

9/11 happened and a lot of Americans are scared. They see every member of the military as a brave young hero protecting them from another terrible act of terrorism.
A lot of people in the military are there for this same reason. They feel that their country and its people need to be protected and they want to do their part. Many of them are scared young men. But in my eyes they are brave to do what they do. It takes enormous balls to go into a war zone.

No matter what people think of the USA and what other hidden agendas they may/may not have, it's not the fault of those young men. And they deserve to be proud to protect their families, which is why they enlisted in the first place.

Fox_In_Socks · 08-02-2013 12:01AM

You can support the troops whilst also disagreeing with policy ie, a stupid war. Soldiers join to serve their country and they go and do their job wherever they are told.

Separate government decisions from people whose job is to follow those decisions.

Augmerson · 08-02-2013 12:05AM

Very true El Guapo! but at the same time, a lot of Americans join because they have very little other options for employment. In Midwestern, Western and Southern states, joining the armed forces is the only way out of poverty. They can't afford a college education or aren't academic enough. Very little in the way of other employers. The military has very attractive pensions and healthcare apparently.

Jester252 · 08-02-2013 12:08AM

A lot of Americans don't like the war but if anyone talks **** about the people over there they will defend them

DylanII · 08-02-2013 12:20AM

I never really understood the way the Americans and British looked at their military.

I personally don't have any extra respect for someone because they went to war. I would most likley think less of them...

Fox_In_Socks · 08-02-2013 12:23AM

DylanII wrote: »

I never really understood the way the Americans and British looked at their military.

I personally don't have any extra respect for someone because they went to war. I would most likley think less of them...

What if they joined the army, but never went to war?

What if they were deployed in peace keeping mission?

What if they were drafted in to help with a natural disaster?

What if your country was being attacked, or invaded?

El Guapo! · 08-02-2013 12:25AM

Augmerson wrote: »

Very true El Guapo! but at the same time, a lot of Americans join because they have very little other options for employment. In Midwestern, Western and Southern states, joining the armed forces is the only way out of poverty. They can't afford a college education or aren't academic enough. Very little in the way of other employers. The military has very attractive pensions and healthcare apparently.

I'm sure that has some truth to it, and that would be another reason people are very protective of the men and women in the military. They are ordinary people doing extraordinary things to earn a few dollars, and also keeping their country safe while they're at it.
These people put their lives at risk every day while they're on a tour. They deserve respect and and people are proud of them because of what they do. And as I said, they're just doing their job and staying alive as best they can. They're not the bigwigs in government making the calls on where to go and who to fight.

DylanII · 08-02-2013 12:26AM

Fox_In_Socks wrote: »

What if they joined the army, but never went to war?

What if they were deployed in peace keeping mission?

What if they were drafted in to help with a natural disaster?

What if your country was being attacked, or invaded?

Great but Americans dont join the army with the expectation of helping with natural disasters. They are expecting to go and destroy some foreign country.

Sugar Free · 08-02-2013 12:36AM

DylanII wrote: »

Great but Americans dont join the army with the expectation of helping with natural disasters. They are expecting to go and destroy some foreign country.

I'm sure all 1.4 million of them joined for that reason alone...

Augmerson · 08-02-2013 12:47AM

El Guapo! wrote: »

I'm sure that has some truth to it, and that would be another reason people are very protective of the men and women in the military. They are ordinary people doing extraordinary things to earn a few dollars, and also keeping their country safe while they're at it.
These people put their lives at risk every day while they're on a tour. They deserve respect and and people are proud of them because of what they do. And as I said, they're just doing their job and staying alive as best they can. They're not the bigwigs in government making the calls on where to go and who to fight.

Well, I can see your point of view, but I feel the invasion of Iraq, the unwavering support for Israel and support of undemocratic regimes undermine and put at extreme risk the security of the US and US service personnel - but I realise those are actions made by the US gov't and not the troops.

How much respect should be afforded to somebody who is supposed to, without question, proceed with any command given by superior officers, whatever it be, because it is their job to do so? I don't know, it makes me uncomfortable, but I do see your point of view, and I guess it explains peoples actions.

laoch na mona · 08-02-2013 12:52AM

but its right to criticise soldiers as some have done terrible things without orders to do so there was a helicopter crew which fired on civilians and had to get permission to engage it was not their orders

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 08-02-2013 12:55AM

Augmerson wrote: »

How much respect should be afforded to somebody who is supposed to, without question, proceed with any command given by superior officers, whatever it be, because it is their job to do so? I don't know, it makes me uncomfortable, but I do see your point of view, and I guess it explains peoples actions.

This point is not as black and white as you make it out to be. You are meant to follow all "lawfull orders". There are a multitude of rules that you must follow while deployed. If you are ordered to do something contrary to those rules, you can stand your ground and say "No".

There are laws regarding combat and soldiers are bound under military and civilian law at all times. A problem arises when the soldier is so scared and battle fatigued that unlawful orders are carried out as "mini revenge" against their "enemy" counterparts.

Augmerson · 08-02-2013 01:06AM

Stealth Recce wrote: »

This point is not as black and white as you make it out to be. You are meant to follow all "lawfull orders". There are a multitude of rules that you must follow while deployed. If you are ordered to do something contrary to those rules, you can stand your ground and say "No".

There are laws regarding combat and soldiers are bound under military and civilian law at all times. A problem arises when the soldier is so scared and battle fatigued that unlawful orders are carried out as "mini revenge" against their "enemy" counterparts.

Revenge and fatigue were part of the horrible events at Haditha if I'm not mistaken?

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 08-02-2013 01:16AM

Augmerson wrote: »

Revenge and fatigue were part of the horrible events at Haditha if I'm not mistaken?

I believe so.

From the outside people can't actually comprehend the mindset of a soldier in that type of atmosphere. War is as psychological as it is physical. Prolonged intense mental pressure is likely to wear you down and allow you to act "outside of yourself" and against your better judgement.

There is no justification for what happened there, it's a messed up place where anyone of any age, gender, disposition is likely to kill you. It got to a stage where it was deemed better to act first and ask questions later. It's not the "PC" or actual correct way to do things but in a place like that you don't take chances.

Zebra3 · 08-02-2013 01:33AM

The cry of "Support Our Troops" is meant to deflect from the criminal behaviour of successive US regimes and the murdering thugs who sign up for the slaughter abroad campaigns.

Anyone with half a brain knew that the invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan were just a front for control of areas full of natural resources.

The only brave troops were those who said they weren't going to the killing fields flowing with blood of innocent locals.

Grand Moff Tarkin · 08-02-2013 01:34AM

DylanII wrote: »

I personally don't have any extra respect for someone because they went to war. I would most likley think less of them...

Nice to see that the people who gave up their life fighting fascists over fifty years ago did not die in vain.:rolleyes:

MadsL · 08-02-2013 01:34AM

Because almost a quarter of American men are veterans. Americans almost certainly know several vets, my neighbours either side are vets - one Army, one Navy.

Americans have gotten used to saying thank you, first it was firefighters (and my local crew are volunteers so I certainly thank them when I see them) then active military, more recently cops.

As to the reasons people serve, I think all the altrustic reasons may be there, but for many it is a simple as getting an education and a job when they leave. It is easier and a hell of a lot cheaper to serve and get that college degree paid for, than pay for it yourself.

As to the "Thank you for your service" - well, to be honest given the amount of disrespect and abuse the Gardai, Fire, Ambulance and IDF have to put up with, and with news of one of them recently losing their life, it wouldn't be amiss next time you see someone in uniform to just say "Thank you for your service". I'm sure it would make their day.

Zebra3 · 08-02-2013 01:40AM

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Nice to see that the people who gave up their life fighting fascists over fifty years ago did not die in vain.:rolleyes:

Don't make me laugh.

Large parts of the US still has apartheid policies in place into the 1960s.

As soon as WWII was over, the US ensured the fascists were rebranded and back in power in Italy in an attempt to crush the left, and Fascist Spain was included in the Marshall Plan.

The only reason the US joined WWII was because it was attacked by Japan.

Myths about "fighting fascism" sound good though.

stretchdoe · 08-02-2013 01:47AM

Augmerson wrote: »

I've been thinking about this for a few days now. I was on Facebook one night, and an American friend was talking to me about how there was a photo of the rapper 50 cent that a lot of people were pissed off about. Apparently, in this photo, 50 cent was wearing a Marines' uniform, the picture was up on Facebook, and this guy who was in the Marines wrote onto his page, giving out. He was fairly livid, really giving it loads, "how dare you wear that uniform, I know you never served in my corps" etc. The post had lots of likes and comments from people who seemed to have family in the military backing the guy up or were in the military or had been.

Some of it got kind of carried away, but anyway, it made me think about how the US armed forces are seen in American society. How can people be so pro-military, even when those forces serve in unjust wars like Iraq? Is it because of the fallout from the Vietnam war, when returning veterans were shunned from having served in such an unpopular conflict? Is it because so many Americans have family and friends in the US forces? Is it because they see the military as defending US values and freedoms?

It seems to me, if you join the military, it doesn't make you particularly brave or heroic. It's a tough, demanding job which can cost you your life but you have very little say about that at times. If you were against an invasion of a country, you'd still have to participate. Sometimes you will have to do very questionable things. Why do some societies glorify the military?

[and before anyone takes offence, I'm not against anybody serving in the military, it's your choice]

That's about 'world-view', or the view of those people on certain 'types'.

If someone like Toby Keith, any other country singer or, basically, any famous white american wearing a cowboy hat, had donned the same uniform and posted it up on facebook, those same people would be on gushing their support, proclaiming them true patriots, and thanking them for their support.

The object of their affections wouldn't have 'served' in the army/marines either, of course.

But it wouldn't matter, in that case.

MadsL · 08-02-2013 01:52AM

stretchdoe wrote: »

That's about 'world-view', or the view of those people on certain 'types'.

If someone like Toby Keith, any other country singer or, basically, any famous white american wearing a cowboy hat, had donned the same uniform and posted it up on facebook, those same people would be on gushing their support, proclaiming them true patriots, and thanking them for their support.

The object of their affections wouldn't have 'served' in the army/marines either, of course.

But it wouldn't matter, in that case.

Toby Keith would have more sense..

Grand Moff Tarkin · 08-02-2013 01:54AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don't make me laugh.

Large parts of the US still has apartheid policies in place into the 1960s.

As soon as WWII was over, the US ensured the fascists were rebranded and back in power in Italy in an attempt to crush the left, and Fascist Spain was included in the Marshall Plan.

The only reason the US joined WWII was because it was attacked by Japan.

Myths about "fighting fascism" sound good though.

Who said anything about the Americans??

My point was just one of general disgust at the way the chap i was replying to could think less of men and women who have served and laid down their lives for their countries

B.A._Baracus · 08-02-2013 01:56AM

One thing I will say about the Americans is that it's all bullshit.

They practually invented the suing culture, mad gun laws and New York is known for being one of the biggest "fuck you" places in the world. Yet they place their hand on their heart, officially come off as "one" when it comes to good ol' a'merica!

What a load of crap :pac:

stretchdoe · 08-02-2013 01:58AM

MadsL wrote: »

Toby Keith would have more sense..

Would have more sense in what way?

Would it hurt his record sales?

I think it would probably help them.

I only picked Toby Keith as he's the first 'patriotic American country-artist' that came to mind; anyone similar will do.

You genuinely think the reaction from those people who attacked 50 cent would be the same, in that instance?

Doc Ruby · 08-02-2013 02:04AM

When American troops returned from Vietnam they were treated with contempt for the most part by the citizenry; for some it was because they lost, for others because they went in the first place. Since then the US government PR arm has been going into overdrive to make sure that never happens again, anything from tightly controlling the access of journalists to warzones to releasing anti-war movies that actually promoted sympathy for the troops.

Since then, respecting people for their 'service' has become an institution in its own right. Personally, I have no respect for their respect. It's a product.

Augmerson · 08-02-2013 02:22AM

Doc Ruby wrote: »

When American troops returned from Vietnam they were treated with contempt for the most part by the citizenry; for some it was because they lost, for others because they went in the first place. Since then the US government PR arm has been going into overdrive to make sure that never happens again, anything from tightly controlling the access of journalists to warzones to releasing anti-war movies that actually promoted sympathy for the troops.

Since then, respecting people for their 'service' has become an institution in its own right. Personally, I have no respect for their respect. It's a product.

It kind of means in a way, that despite your objection to a conflict, people will still support it because they support the troops for participating. Which is kind of crazy.

This reminds me of a good Bill Hicks sketch -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w

mathepac · 08-02-2013 02:24AM

El Guapo! wrote: »

... And they deserve to be proud to protect their families, which is why they enlisted in the first place.

How does shooting civilians (or "terrorists" for that matter) in their home country, protect American lives in America?

Surely they have learned that every innocent civilian accidentally shot or blown up acts as a recruitment poster for the "terrorists"?

Surely they read their history-books before they ventured into Afghanistan (for example) to murder without trial one of their own US-trained and US-funded "terrorists"? "Wars" in Afghanistan are un-winnable as has been proven to many invaders over the centuries.

The Americans haven't won a war since 1945 - not the war on drugs, Vietnam, poverty, illegal immigration, world hunger, obesity at home - nothing; they are losers and have been for generations. What they intend winning in Afghanistan isn't clear to anyone (maybe another reconstruction project if the shooting ever stops) but they will not get the outcome they want (other than making billions for the arms manufacturers back home).

To suggest that the military should go about their allotted tasks in an unthinking, robot-like manner just following orders is to do them a great dis-service; many of them are there simply to avoid serious jail-time at home.

Supporting the Troops

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