Taxing the Poor

bluewolf wrote: »

Plenty of places pay less than minimum wage and give pay increases, and it's entirely legal

These programs where people on the dole work for a company, is basically the company getting free labor.

Why would you hire someone if you can get the government to pay for it?

This will do nothing to alleviate unemployment.

Madam_X wrote: »

Depends. Friend of mine got an internship with a new company which didn't have the budget for a full-time employee. He wasnt qualified for the role beforehand (just a bit of dabbling in the area at college years before) He got hands-on experience for nine months, which as he says you wouldn't get in two years' minimum of college for a qualification in the particular skill. They gave him some cash every month to top up his dole/allowance. And they gave him a full-time job at the end. Yeh it could be argued there was exploitation, but he was delighted with it, and in his case it was hugely beneficial.

Of course it's utterly appalling when Tesco et al take advantage of state funds when they've plenty of money themselves though. And you're not being a trainee anything if you're loading shelves... just free labour.

It's great it worked out for him, though 9 months is too long a contract for an internship in my opinion.

Can you not see the problem though that someone with experience already is pushed out of opportunity because what were jobs are now internships? The company that EVENTUALLY hired him- if they gave him a full time job in the end, why didn't they advertise for a full time job in the first place so that unemployed people who already have experience, and possibly a family and a mortgage could get some work?

These internships offer no guarantee of a job afterwards. Some of them, alot of them, demand previous experience anyway. Someone on another thread here recently posted an example of one requiring a PHD as well as experience.

clairefontaine wrote: »

The Irish have put up with enough. At some point they have to draw a line and not allow businesses to get free labour.

Why would you ever hire someone and pay a real salary if you can get the government to pay less than minimum wage for your labour force?

You will never see job growth if this continues. You may think you are investing in your future.You are not but you are complicit in the scam. There is no future with these policies.

You ARE investing in your future though. What is it really actually costing you in the long run only your time? What's the alternative if you never upskill yourself- a life on social welfare, subject to the whim of a government looking to cut costs where it can, usually from social welfare, so your income as we shall call it, will only ever be decreasing, and if a person chooses not to engage in the upskilling and employment seeking process, then they only have themselves to blame when they see yet another reduction in their social welfare payment.

I know there are a minority who are happy to accept this as their "lot" in life, but for those that really WANT to make something of themselves, they should see these various schemes as an opportunity to better themselves for their OWN future, and to hell with the idea of "I'm not going to be slave labor for anybody".

Employers don't care, the government doesn't ACTUALLY care, so really when it comes down to it, you should really see that it's your responsibility to care for yourself.

clairefontaine wrote: »

It's great it worked out for him, though 9 months is too long a contract for an internship in my opinion.

Can you not see the problem though that someone with experience already is pushed out of opportunity because what were jobs are now internships? The company that EVENTUALLY hired him- if they gave him a full time job in the end, why didn't they advertise for a full time job in the first place so that unemployed people who already have experience, and possibly a family and a mortgage could get some work?

These internships offer no guarantee of a job afterwards. Some of them, alot of them, demand previous experience anyway. Someone on another thread here recently posted an example of one requiring a PHD as well as experience.

Yeh I agree even in my friend's case it's flawed. It's also not just the Tescos etc who exploit. A phd required? What a joke. Just saying though some of them are more benign and it wouldn't always be wise to turn one down.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You don't know the system if you think that.

Free labour has a cost as you have to supervise the individual and there is a lot of paper work.

There is a qualification to get such employees. Not every company can take them and again you need to train them. One rule is you can't have a vacancy advertised for the role in the last 6 months so no job being lost for the scheme.

The employment of many after jobs bridge is meant to be about 50% so is working. CE and TUS schemes is a little more doubtful. However apparently mental health support costs go down on people on such schemes. It isn't all about money.

People should get paid for their work. That is the bottom line. And the private company should pay for it. Not get cheap labour the government is paying for.

Internships should be limited to six weeks, not a nine month contract. ANd then they hire or they don't.

bluewolf wrote: »

Why? Do they have some special entitlement to a job above anyone else?

The company hired someone when it was in a position to and because maybe they couldn't do without him - it's their decision

Think about the bigger picture. If people can't get jobs to pay their mortgages the country is on a vicious cycle. Homes get lost, people emmigrate, no tax revenue, the national debt doesn't get paid, etc.

These schemes inhibit growth.

clairefontaine wrote: »

Think about the bigger picture. If people can't get jobs to pay their mortgages the country is on a vicious cycle. Homes get lost, people emmigrate, no tax revenue, the national debt doesn't get paid, etc.

These schemes inhibit growth.

Think about the smaller picture- you get experience and training that you can put down on your CV, that can help you land a better job.

clairefontaine wrote: »

An internship is not employment so "normal probabation" periods do not apply.

Internships in the States are done by college students in the summer, not adults with experience and responsibilities.

I'm posting from mobile so I can't quite copy and paste the relevant parts, but internships are not just undertaken by college students in summer, and are indeed taken on by adults with responsibilities. They go on the internship to get experience-


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship


and in the current economic climate, they've even coined a new term for people with experience taking up internships, or "returnships" as they're calling them (gotta love the Americans with their positive attitude to everything! )-


http://www.examiner.com/article/the-benefits-of-a-returnship-a-k-a-internship-for-the-mid-career-employee

Claire I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the real problem is that we copy a lot of our ideas from the American culture and try and adapt it to Irish culture and it just doesn't work because the two cultures are vastly different, the biggest difference being as I mentioned already that the American culture is inherently positive. They don't see failure, they see a chance to help somebody get back on their feet. Irish culture is inherently negative, we wallow in misery and oppression and someone's failure is seen by others as a chance for some to pity them, for others to snicker at "how the mighty have fallen".

clairefontaine wrote: »

Well that is certainly a sign of how bad things are over there. Unfortunately those links did not say how long the internships are for and if they are paid or unpaid. Are those internships entry level?

They do vary, you're right, they are for the most part taken up by college students looking to gain experience in their chosen field. I can only speak anecdotally though when I say that I have a friend over there on a year long internship with a fashion designer. In her case she is not being paid but is gaining valuable experience.

The idea of returnships then is for people who, as the name suggests, are returning to a particular field of employment or even some adults who are currently in employment but want a career change and so seek experience in another field of employment, some actually DO pay, most don't.

The problem with internships here is that they are often not entry level and they are too long altogether. What are you supposed to do if you already have the experience but what you need is the job? You are better off emmigrating.

Ah now the likes of the PhD reqd. and the Tesco effort are exceptional cases. For the most part most internships ARE entry level, and Employment Services (the new name for FAS in conjunction with the DSFW) will try to match a candidate to an internship they think will be suitable for them. It's always been the case though that sometimes experience isn't enough to land you that job, but your educational qualifications might (there are so many other factors too but since we're just talking generally).

There's no guarantee either that emigrating is the answer, there are many Irish abroad who fail to secure employment because this recession is not unique to Ireland. It has affected every country- America, Australia, England, even Poland says "the people from the land of a thousand welcomes ain't welcome here any more, we've got our own to look after!".

You do not need training for a lot of jobs that are advertised as internships, certainly not nine months.

I don't know about that now. Again only anecdotally speaking- my sister in law was unemployed, did a six month course in office admin, got an internship with a company, nine months later she was taken on permanently. She had the qualifications but no real world experience, and the internship helped her get that. She wasn't too concerned about the company's bottom line or who was paying them to employ her.

I don't know if you are in Dublin or not, but try to think about how this works on a national level and not just in places where there are big companies and flexible hierarchies.

I see how it's working on a national level, I do, and clearly it's not a perfect system and needs tightening up, but I wouldn't immediately dismiss internships out of hand as a negative. There are many positives for all involved- the unemployed person gets valuable experience that they wouldn't normally get if the employer weren't incentivised to take a person on and give them the experience, and if they get employment out of it further down the road, the government is quids in, in terms of extra tax revenue income, and less paid out on social welfare!


I do agree with you though that the likes of Tesco and PhD seekers are taking the pìss and in my opinion ruining it for everybody, meaning it's no wonder people are cynical and skeptical of these initiatives.